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Keen Breaks Sensor Mods

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Artikia, May 18, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Artikia

    Artikia Trainee Engineer

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    26
    We have been working hard on sensor mods and work arounds for the foolishly short-ranged sensors or lack of long range sensors so we can build long range AI opponents and Drone Allies and guards. This month two group even decided to have a drone build contest, but when I went to check all my hard tuning on my sensors I found they all turned to the worthless 50m. With the guns set at 700m to 1200m this make the drone worthless and make any future set-up for planned contest and battles destroyed. there are a number of good builds and blueprints that relied on the ability for those that knew how to being able to go in and reset and program the sensor at the needed range, but now all those build either don't work, go haywire when spawned, or worse destroy whole servers and require rollbacks for them to work again. I lost 3 design saves because of this nonsense and alot of good designs I no longer have access to because loading those saves crash the game bad enough that I have to reboot my machine to get it and the game working right again. People we need long-range sensors to build decent AIs and this comes at the worst time since the drone I am trying to build for the contest can not function or even get close to the first test I try to run them through.

    Please fix this so we can have our drones and AIs working again.
     
  2. Souper07

    Souper07 Apprentice Engineer

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    105
    Welcome to Alpha :)
     
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  3. w4stedspace

    w4stedspace Trainee Engineer

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    43
    By 'Welcome to Alpha' I assume you are referring to this from the Steam page: "We invite you to give us your feedback and suggestions to help us create the best game possible."

    Personally I second the call for longer range sensor options seeing as they stopped the modded ones from working. The current sensors are massively limited.
     
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  4. mexmer

    mexmer Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    sensor range was limited due performance issues.
    please note that sensor scans every voxel in range (it's range "cube" in fact, or whatever you set with range sliders).

    even incresing range to let's say 200m increases lag by quite large margin.

    have you read threads about turret lags? this is quite similar problem (even bigger in fact, because sensors scan lot more, than turrets).

    i assume, time might come (when optimization is done), that sensor range limitation will be lifted, or there will be different sensor for longer range, with lower sample rate. but i doubt it will happen anytime soon.
     
  5. w4stedspace

    w4stedspace Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    The thing is, I was the person who made the mod and have used that method to create sensors with ranges upto 3km with 0 performance impact.

    So I can link multiple videos showing them in action at 1km + ranges with multiple sensors in complex setups... combat drones, 800m tracking turrets etc etc. None of which show any performance degradation at all, nothing like the degradation caused by turrets (where primarily the slowdown seems to come from the projectile physics rather than the tracking functions, the noticeable slowdown begins when they fire)

    So really don't get the performance argument... they caused considerably fewer issues than turrets, compounded by the fact that you'd often use a single sensor array in place of a large number of turrets.
     
  6. w4stedspace

    w4stedspace Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    Worth noting as the guy who made them I do have a pretty good idea why they were 'fixed' and I sadly agree it had to be done, it highlighted that even in multiplayer there was 0 checking done on blueprint contents, which could then be edited directly in the blueprint file to allow the spawning of some very broken stuff without need for any mods or permissions on the server.

    But still, performance was never an issue that I heard, nor did I ever get and reports on the videos/workshop items that people had performance problems with them
     
  7. mexmer

    mexmer Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    If you are sure your solution had no issues, you can post pull request for change. It will be reviewed by keen, and might be even approved.

    anyway, you say, there were no performance issues, try 1km sensor in cluster of ships (let's say like 20 or 30 of them)
     
  8. w4stedspace

    w4stedspace Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    I can't test with the extended sensors as they no longer work, but here's some results testing 30 ships alone vs 30 ships in range of a standard sensor vs 30 ships in range of 8 standard sensors. Sensors are set to maximum range and to detect players and small ships of all types.
    Code:
    https://imgur.com/a/fZIsb
    Using the smallest ships in my fleet for this test as honestly spawning 30 large ships is going to bring things to a crawl on it's own, and of course I would struggle to fit inside the sensor field.

    Despite this only being with 50m sensors, the performance results should be the same regardless of the actual range of the sensor as it's more about the number of ships within range of it (unless I'm missing an aspect of how it works).

    Brief summary of results would be (for me at least) I drop from 60fps to 30fps by spawning in the 30 ships. Adding sensors makes no difference whatsoever after that.
     
  9. Dax23333

    Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    If they scan every voxel in their range, then limiting the range to 50m to reduce lag still makes no sense. A 50m by 50m by50m cube, the max we are allowed now, has the same volume as a 125km (yes, kilometers) by 1m by 1m cuboid. I'd rather have the 125km long one, even if that is a bit excessive. I've barely got 20km out in my survival world.

    I hope keen isn't trying to stop people making all these sensor based combat drones and things...
     
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  10. mexmer

    mexmer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    you can build own game with unlimited sensors from source.
    also don't forget to disable any turrets on ships, before starting test.
     
  11. w4stedspace

    w4stedspace Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    Indeed Dax, in normal sensor use scenarios you never have them maxed on all parameters really either.. maybe a single 'activation' sensor like that but for the purpose that people would like longer range sensors (drone building etc) they are almost exclusively used in long thin boxes with very little actual area to aid with precision.

    As you can hopefully see from the screenshots those are small ships in a vanilla game, there can't be any turrets.. they are about the size of a turret themselves heh :) We could build our own game from source, if we had the knowledge to do so... But that's nothing to do with this.. this is about giving feedback on the game like is intended and requested during alpha and early access phases.. it is entirely the point of alpha/early access to provide feedback to the developers and is stressed on the Steam page also.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  12. mexmer

    mexmer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    if "volume" or "area" scanned by sensor will remain same as current, i think it's feasible change, but current control doesn't support this kind of operation (i mean, for example you start draging "front" over 50m, and either it will block you (if rest is also 50), or it will autoreduce rest, this will need change to ui.

    FYI perfomance reason is not mine thing, it's answer directly from developers (you can see it also on pull request on git).
     
  13. Digi

    Digi Senior Engineer

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    2,393
    How about the sensor updates are slower the bigger its volume, that way you can actually introduce some engineering in the sensor designs.
     
  14. Gwindalmir

    Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,006
    I have seen the sensors lag on my machine. Your machine is most likely fast enough to not notice (increase in GameLogic updates). Not everyone is so lucky.
    With that said, I don't think Keen should be limiting mods.
    If they want to change the default sensor to max at 50m (I think it was already), that's fine. Restricting mods, even with performance issues, isn't good IMO. They did that a few weeks ago with something else too (then restored it). Mods are a choice, and with that choice comes possible performance impacts.
    It gives server admins a choice if they want possible performance crushing sensors ;-).

    If someone writes a variable sampling rate sensor, Keen might approve that.
    Testing should be done on a machine close to the minimum requirements for the game. If the GameLogic time is about the same for a 1000x1000x1000m and 50x50x50m sensor, that works for me!
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  15. Lynnux

    Lynnux Junior Engineer

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    881
  16. Artikia

    Artikia Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    26

    How do you post a "pull request for change" I was using anywhere from 5 to 25 sensors on some of my old builds and they were ALOT less laggy then using even half that number of turrets. I may end up reversing the trigger program on the drones so they travel straight and then guide when they get close but then I have to also add turrets to my drones so they actually attack in the proper range!
     
  17. mexmer

    mexmer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    1km in each direction, when you tested that? that will simulate turret scanning.

    as for pull request, i was talking about github ....
     
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