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Planetary Logistics?

Discussion in 'General' started by Repo Mann, Jun 30, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

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    236
    Hi.
    We've been speculating about planetary building, cobat et cetera, but we forgot about the way to work with logistics!

    Imagine yourself flying in space in your regular ship. It is fun, yeah. You mine resources, make your ship bigger and bigger, turning it into a migrating space station full of resources. Then you think about inva...migrating to "Earth" ;).
    You orbit it and then think about one simple thing "How do I move my citadel down? I worked so hard on it and don't want to lose it!"

    The solution is meteorblitzkr...sorry, still dreaming about planets...cutting it in pieces and hauling it with a powerful chute, that can move back after a while. A space tugboat designed specially for moving different items in containers or parts of the ship themselves.

    Well, I want to discuss the ways of space-to-planet cargo delivery ways.
    This topic was well developed by the well-known cortex command game. In it we had many ways to deliver delicate cargo.

    Let's start from the most funny ways to deliver cargo:
    [​IMG]
    crate, rocket and a dropship. The crate is very cozy btw.

    -The crate.
    A steel crate falls from the sky destroying anything underneath it.
    I loved this way of delivery. You can one shot any enemy that doesn't hide.
    The other aspect is that it was the cheapest way to deliver items from orbit. So what about imitating this way? We don't have indestructible crates, but we can cover the cargo with multiple layers of armor and armor frames. lets say a thin layer of heavy armor and 3-4 layers of armor frames for some impact dampening?
    Pros: cheapest way to surface, fastest way
    Cons: unsafiest way, ghetto-style landing, beter not to land on your base

    -The rocket.
    Somehow opposite of the crate. It has engines and some kind of stabilisation systems.
    No additional thrusters, nothing that makes it heavier than needed. In our case it seems to be the best way to deliver resources from surface to orbit, but not the ship parts or heavy machinery. It will be simply crushed by the acceleration and planets gravity united. The landing is also not guaranteed due to it's lack of thrusters
    Pros: cheapest way to orbit, fastest way
    Cons: only 1 or 2 way-placed thrusters, hard to control in space, requires a good piloting skill, no excess block cargo, conector-based cargo may crush the whole ship.

    -The planetary tugboats.
    The lightweight ships with bottom-oriented main engines that may be strong enough to take off and land carefully on a planet.
    To my mind they should look like empty frames with thrusters at the edges and merge blocks for cargo capture. They also should have good landing pads to land safely. The main pro is that this ship can tug everything and be used multiple times, but needs time to construct and may cost very much resources. A loss of one may be a hard hit for everyone.
    Pros: stability, agility, ability to tug spaceship parts and varios machinery + cargo.
    Cons: low armor - not combat effective, costs a lot to be built, needs to be tested properly before actual work, any damage will result in immediate ship drop or failure.
    [​IMG]
    A good tug boat is a repaired tugboat. Dont miss the repair sessions!

    So I would like to see your ideas and prototypes that could work on surface.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    Well, i like the idea of something like a VTOL Dropship, but i feel like it would almost have to be on a large ship scale to get anything major done. Large thrusters can more or less effectively lift 12 tonnes (small ship) and 100 tonnes (large ship) in a 1G gravity field now currently resources don't have any mass/weight in containers, but if medieval engineers is any indicator we may too soon have to deal with that. now while i don't suspect we'll be carrying ore down from orbit (for efficiency reasons i would hope you can have it purified/refined prior to landing) as far as the other options, the drop pod like in cortex command is sketchy at best so i don't really consider it an option.

    On a related note to that, to land larger ships it may be worth it to create some sacrificial stilts to controlled crash onto if your ship cannot defeat gravity on its own.

    and the rockets, while nice i don't believe would be super functional with respect to the way SE handles inertial dampening.

    I have done a little bit of VTOL trials and right now i just have a really rough skeleton system designed. but it would work as both a resource tug and also a higher speed shuttle, the thing only weighed like 15 tonnes and could in theory lift 48 tonnes. for a cargo weight of 33 tonnes. which isnt bad. this number could be easily padded by adding either more thrusters to the VTOL function or by having more VTOL Directions

    Ex: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=458366900

    in this unit the forward backward thrust move to downward positions, but i figure you could easily enough direct left right as well to downward giving you a fairly high strength to weight ratio, meaning orbital cargo would be fairly safe to move. I also tried this on a large ship scale but it doesn't work very well due to the rettaching rotor being in a weird position.

    anyway ill be keeping an eye on this thread as its a keen subject of interest for me.
     
  3. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    VTOLS are good only if you have lots of resources. If you need to safely get to the ground the orbital crate or capsule that safely crushes is the best option.
    Pros: needs mostly metal for building(unfinished frames that will cover the main need for acceleration dampening), can deliver lots of packed stuff and passengers and needs no landing pads for successful landing. ORK style KRUSH landing.
    Cons: 1-time vehicle, needs to be built big for maximum safety, better not to use it as a constant way to land - problems with planet base may occur.
    Ultimate pro: WAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

    Seriously, this is the most random and funny way to land.
    The secondary way is a rocket, but it is not so funny though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  4. a2457

    a2457 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,366
    if i wanted to drop a cargo crate from orbit, full of ggodies, then i would stick 6 spaceballs around it.
    more than posiible that it will survive :D
     
  5. Napoleocool

    Napoleocool Trainee Engineer

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    20
    I was thinking about making a cableway all the way up to space.
     
  6. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

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    236
    we may get structure damaging system similiar to the medieval engineers' thus space lift may be ineffective due to size.
    Also remember about the griefers. this will be their favourite target.
     
  7. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    Bump, BTW.
    I want also to add one interesting fact:
    We will have planets with different gravity.
    This means that idea of VTOLs becomes very theoretical. And space crates may be preferable.
     
  8. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,787
    Fr
    From my understanding there won't be gravity exceeding 1g, so as long as you build it to clear say 1.5g you should be fine, because remember if it's falling, it's several km, and if your off even a fee degrees you'll miss the dropzone by a literal mile. Atleast withstood
    with VTOLs you can also use it to go both directions so it saves you having a shuttle aNd a drop ship
     
  9. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    >miles
    >miss degrees

    Ill just stop above the needed point(we dont need to orbit earth, remember?) and then softly drop the crate. the accuracy would be granted by the gravitation. And sometimes you just don't need the dropships or vtols. You need to drop something on a planet and forget about it.

    For example the party members that we going to betray you. Just launch the on a planet with no iron and limit their access only to some lonely medbay on the ground
     
  10. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,787
    I apologize for my terrible grammar, its sunny out, i was sweating from mowing, and i was using a phone to type. anyway. i still think its going to be difficult to accurately aim a drop point from several KM the reason being is, between inertial loads and gravity your stability in one spot could be compromised, and yes, in cases where you'd more aptly call it jettisoning something or some one then yes, but if you want to get supplies up AND down, a drop crate doesnt really cut it. which is why i'd rather spend the resources once on a VTOL carrier/shuttle
     
  11. waterlimon

    waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    1,499
    Just build a space elevator... Or a big ramp... :D
     
  12. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    I told already that this is one way. VTOL also needs dramatically more resources. if you are in space and want to(almost) safely get to surface this is the best option.

    Too much resources also grieferss will like it.
     
  13. waterlimon

    waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    1,499
    We can just add a small note in the loading screen saying "Griefing is not allowed" and act like they dont exist anymore :)
     
  14. Malloy94

    Malloy94 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    34
    I've found it really hard to plan a planetary drop pod. My results vary on what appears to be material of the landing area and if the object is occupied or not. I have a lot of screenshots of my different results with the same ships, dropped from height with natural gravity that affects small ships. They reach the 104 m/s top speed well before they hit. Here are my pods results.
    2015-07-04_00001.jpg 2015-07-04_00002.jpg 2015-07-04_00003.jpg 2015-07-04_00004.jpg 2015-07-04_00005.jpg 2015-07-04_00008.jpg
     
  15. Malloy94

    Malloy94 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    34
    Another. Seemed to be the most devastating. It wanted to keep traveling through the ground even after it landed. Yet it hit at the same speed as all the others. 2015-07-04_00006.jpg

    KEEP IN MIND - THIS IS AT THE VANILLA 104 M/S LIMIT.
    If I were to add a speed mod the results are more devastating and the size of the drop pod would have to be excessive to absorb said impact. I'm doing trials with a slightly stronger variant with the speed mod and it seems it would prove costly. The only way any of these can survive without any damage is with enough thrusters to slow impact speed. All my trials use strictly gravity and no thrusters (except one to get going back into gravitational zone) and parts to buffer the landing. Also the point of this test wasn't just to make a survivable drop pod but to test consistency among all the pods. The difference between the landings is vast and has made all my attempts unreliable.

    EDIT - This was the worst. Proved to me material doesn't matter..

    2015-07-04_00012.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  16. a2457

    a2457 Senior Engineer

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    1,366
    spaceballs should be pretty fit to take on a collision.
    i guess.
     
  17. Repo Mann

    Repo Mann Apprentice Engineer

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    236
    @Malloy94
    Y u no use big blocks?
    Small pods have less space to dampen their speed. Big blocks have much more space to be deformed and much more HP.
     
  18. a2457

    a2457 Senior Engineer

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    1,366
    if sensors range could be increased to a sufficient distance then probably some brake jets could ease the problem i guess.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Shikashi

    Shikashi Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Wow, where did you get that planet?
     
  20. mhalpern

    mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    drop pod with space ball cushion and guidance would work well, combined with a scaled up gravity cannon- plus a truck to recover the crates- and you have a decent way to have what in effect is freight on and off the planet, however early on logistics (after you've set up shop/ or if no one else has the planet) dropships can be rather efficient. as for structures being targetted- 2 things 1 targets serve as things that make an agressor more predictable 2 I will still have drop ships.
     
  21. mhalpern

    mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    it also saves a lot of time/energy in the long run and as I've said before- give them an obvious target and they become easier to defend against, without an obvious target they can get curious and find stuff thats more than just iron and a few advanced components, also such systems expediate construction of other things, less thrusters are needed to move materials- so more can go into the ships.
     
  22. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,787
    Which i totally get, its cheaper initially, but my argument still stands, what happens when you want to send something back up? you'll still need the Rocket to get clear of the atmosphere.

    My VTOL ships don't cost drastically more than your average small ship anyway. 4 large (small ship) thrusters can clear around 50 tonnes of mass from 1G which doubles as 2 forward, 2 reverse large ship thrusters when converted, giving you a high speed shuttle for non planetary work. I'd rather build it once and have something effective at being a multi role, than taking a chance on literally dropping and hoping for the best.

    While i'm aware steel plates aren't as expensive as more advanced components. but still if you have to use lets say on the low end 10 blocks your likely out 200 steel plates due to damage, assuming that the cargo survives.

    My other argument about drop crates is this: you still need to collect the resources from the crate after it lands. Which means you need another vehicle, flying or otherwise depending on whats practical for the landscape / resources available. If you made the drop crate out of large ship blocks, a small ship capable of moving it would cost far more than the cost of just building a decent VTOL and landing it on an exact point/landing pad where resources can be easily collected.

    Or what if you screw up the drop zone and it smashes into one of your base buildings? or if it falls into a crevice by some chance? Hell, you all talk of enemies attacking, what if they shoot the crate down? i know a similar argument could be made towards a VTOL but atleast it can attempt to evade the attacks.

    as for the whole, more thrusters available for ships bit, think of it this way, you can always scrap the VTOL for parts. where as potentially destroyed blocks are a total loss.

    I'll admit early on, or for the initial landing on a planet, a drop crate is a good idea, it gets resources there fairly quick and cheaply, however as a long term method, i feel that it has a few too many issues to justify its lower costs.

    /end rant
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. mhalpern

    mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    nah a grav cannon will be cheaper long term, then a vtol or "rocket" the vtol is cheaper initially
     
  24. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    a Grav cannon to where? to fire it down to the surface? or to fire it up to space? or did i miss something entirely?
     
  25. Malloy94

    Malloy94 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    34
    I was using small pods as a space requirement. They'd have to be dropped from a station/ship in orbit or just outside of orbit. The pod I had could easily be made with a projector for quick replacement. It also helps with recovery, as all the important parts are in the small containers and can easily be moved onto a rover trailer or into a rovers cargo.

    A lot of the damage can be avoided by adding thrusters to the pod. I have a working version that receives minor damage if any at all and can steer - but can't fly. It helps with the problem that you'll drop on the cliff of a mountain and fall another 30-40m to your doom. But drop crate wise I was hoping for something you can drop and forget, not just have to steer. The version in my tests was to test crumple zones - which works to a point. Like I said for some reason I got different results with every pod. Some you'd swear never fell, while others went 10m into the ground and left nothing to salvage.
     
  26. mhalpern

    mhalpern Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,119
    into space
     
  27. Shikashi

    Shikashi Trainee Engineer

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    99
    Yeah, I'm already planning on using hyper-calibrated grav cannons to deliver a lot of ore/components between my bases with almost no cost.
    My planning includes gravity tubes which can be calibrated per rotors, and gravity nets that slow down the "delivery-projectile"
    And you can even shoot explosives per mail, using this with the recalibrate function you can refit your deliverycannon as a battle railgun :D
     
  28. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,787
    So then you must be planning an absolutely massive gravity cannon then?
    I'm not going to do exact math, but this should be close enough to get my point across

    1G = 9.8 m/s2 acceleration so lets call it 10 for easy sake.

    Assuming you launch from the ground, you have 75M to get up to 104 m/s

    which is fine, its just several generators to fire it. Now as soon as it leaves that 75M window it begins to decelerate at 10 m/s which, and i know this math is wrong but at best you have about 10 seconds before it reaches 0 velocity and will begin to descend back to the planet. even if it maintained top speed it's still only really traveled about 1 km... which is not enough to clear the gravity well (maybe on smaller planets?) and then there is the issue with catching it. It's unlikely you can effectively see your installations from orbit. so you'd be firing somewhat blindly. if you somehow managed to maintain max speed through orbit if you missed, you would simply lose all of the resources. because its already going max speed, you cant catch it.

    Unless im not quite understanding what you mean by implementing gravity cannons to toss things into space, i don't think it will work quite how you think it will. Though i would be happy to eat my words if you gave me an example of how, it's probably my ignorance toward gravity based things why i cant see what you have in mind.
     
  29. iN5URG3NT

    iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

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    1,132
    @GrindyGears You beat me to it! I agree, it's going to lose 10m/s every second. With a 75m high framework you could get 150m of acceleration, but I'm still skeptical that would be enough.
     
  30. GrindyGears

    GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    In this case the distance of acceleration is sorta a null factor, since we have a speed cap anyway, it might just be a case of pump a little more "Juice" into it to achieve the desired results. However it still stands to reason that it probably needs to go around 2-3km to clear the higher gravity areas, and even then, i still think catching a several tonne baseball with a thimble traveling at around 400 km/h is going to be difficult regardless...
     
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