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Balancing The Starter Ship

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by OldGamer67, Sep 15, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    I feel that the starter ship gives too much to the player right off the bat. There is also concern from people that like to play multiplayer that it's too easy for a griefer to use the starter ship as a ram.

    I favor reducing the starter to a small ship grid and giving it just enough components to build an Assember, Connector, Arc Furnace and Solar Panel. I think starting with a refinery is too much and makes it too easy.
     
  2. SteamBoat

    SteamBoat Trainee Engineer

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    You can easily modify the starter ship now, since there was an update dedicated to it, and if you think the vessel provided to start off is too much, you can always pick "empty world".
     
  3. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    Why would I want to play in a world devoid of anything but empty space? Or am I misunderstanding? The empty world option doesn't even contain asteroids as far as I know. Haven't messed with it but I think that's what the tool tip said.

    I already create my own starter ships. What would be even better than that would be the ability to choose what you start with from your blueprints. I still think the respawn ship gives too much to the player too soon. It's easy enough to get a start with a small ship and it gives the player something to work towards. It would (possibly) help with the griefer problems that I hear people on servers have to deal with.
     
  4. The Q

    The Q Apprentice Engineer

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    yes the empty world has no asteroids its creativ only or hardcor survival (pirate style)
     
  5. russo_bolado

    russo_bolado Junior Engineer

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    Not really "hardcore". Empty world is Creative mostly: if you want to pirate-style playing, you'd have to wait until a weak ship spawns (hoping you won't smother while waiting) and dodge their turrets to hijack them. Then, you'll still run out of air, as Cargo Ships are not retrofit for O2.
     
  6. SteamBoat

    SteamBoat Trainee Engineer

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    Oh, great idea. Let me solve the problem of ramming griefers by spawning in my lag-inducing battleship.
    Like having a refinery and an assembler? And youre planning on starting off your adventure without the ability to refine what youve mined and without the ability to assemble parts out of your ingots? Or would you rather never be able to find your way back after death, cause you didnt spawn back in the medbay the ship shouldnt have? Or perhaps youd rather not have the ship powered, rendering all its systems practically non-existant?
     
  7. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    I only play single player survival. A multiplayer solution would need to limit what people can spawn with, obviously. Admins could choose which ships to allow on their server. Maybe an approval process. Not really my problem and I don't know anything about running a server.

    Do we NEED to start with a ship containing a gravity generator? Do we even NEED to start in a large ship? The starter ship, as I already mentioned, would contain all the components a player needs to get started. Assembler, solar panel, a way to hook up and instead of a refinery, an arc furnace. This could all be put into a small ship cargo container. Yes, you'd have to build it instead of having it readily available. Isn't that the point of this game? The ship would have enough power to run all systems for at least several hours. Early power management might be necessary. Maybe start with an oxygen tank instead of an oxygen generator. I had no idea they could hold so much air.

    Find my way back? You've heard of GPS, right? If you didn't set coordinates to find your way back, that's on you.

    Medbay could be a problem or an opportunity in disguise, depending on how you look at it and how you like to play. If this is about multiplayer again, then I don't know what to say as I have no experience with multiplayer. It only becomes an issue if you die and don't have one. I would think someone on a server without one wouldn't go looking for trouble until they did. And what happens to people who have a medbay but it gets destroyed? Are they just screwed? Or do they build another one? Medbay is a safety net. It sucks not to have one when you need it but you don't need it for your day to day activities. It's also simple to adjust the starting cargo to include everything to build a medbay if it's just not feasible to start without one.

    In all of this, I'm looking at it from a single player perspective. Multiplayer is a whole different beast. But it seems to me that starting people off in a small ship (or approved blueprints) is the better way to go.
     
  8. The Q

    The Q Apprentice Engineer

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    an youtuber once done it, i think at least...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Dr. Novikov

    Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    We had this on ERIS hardcore server, and I liked that. Even building a med room was quite an accomplishment, so players sometimes had to share.
     
  10. Echillion

    Echillion Senior Engineer

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    Have you tried using the other spawn ships in the list? the blue and white y shaped one only has a assembler?
     
  11. SteamBoat

    SteamBoat Trainee Engineer

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    Its taken care of by the update solution of "make your own default starter ship".
    Make your own default starter ship, instead of putting more work on KSW, youve been given the tools.
    If we dont NEED the gravgen, is it that much of an advantage to have it?
    You cant refine everything in an arc furnace. Im almost positive you cant refine enought in it to build a refinery.
    Or you could spawn at your ship, instead of spawning in another ship and flying it over kilometers.

    Nothing in here has to be rebalanced by KSW. You can do it easily yourself.
     
  12. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    And I use those tools. I just want a default option that's better and a small ship would be a better starting solution.

    This is what a gravity generator uses:

    40 computers
    6 motors
    4 large steel tubes
    60 construction components
    6 gravity generator components
    150 steel plate

    That's:

    761 kg iron
    132 kg cobalt
    3 kg silver
    6 kg gold
    3 kg nickel
    .8 kg silicon

    Also, even one large ship small thruster has enough resources to make 6 small ship large thrusters and some change. And you can get away with grinding off 6 of them and still be functionally mobile. Hell, you could even get away with grinding all but 2 of them off.

    Each thruster adds:

    376.5 kg iron
    80 kg cobalt
    8 kg gold
    3.2 kg platinum

    I'd call that a big advantage. That doesn't even include grinding down anything non-essential and building blocks with the minimum needed to make them functional.

    Yes you could. And an established player should be able to do that. Someone just starting out should not. Minecraft is a good example. You start with nothing and need to gather resources to build something that will let you build better stuff. This is exactly the same principle.

    I'm not arguing that it can't be done by myself. I want a default option. I also think this could solve some multiplayer headaches. A small ship is less destructive if someone wants to ram you with it.

    What do you do currently that you couldn't do if you started out as I'm suggesting? Starting out in a small ship gives more of a "pioneer trying to survive on their own" feel than being gifted a large ship right off the bat. It's easier to abuse a large ship than a small one.
     
  13. Scya

    Scya Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree with OP that small ship should be default.
    If you want spawn in the Yellow one, you can change it by your own because we have the options to do this ;-)
     
  14. SteamBoat

    SteamBoat Trainee Engineer

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    The default, good solution that you use is the tools youve been given by KSW. Whoever doesnt mind, doesnt mind, who minds, like you, you can fix it for yourself and your server. KSW wont be doing your work.
    Yeah, a day less work in the mines. FOR EVERYONE. Instead EVERYONE gets recycling duty.
    Yes, you could - just amass a fleet of starting ships within a minute and rebuild them into a cruiser. Thats a fair way to go! Instead spawn in your medbay and dont add resources without work. Youve created more problems.
    In MC you can punch a tree to get wood, punch wood into planks, punch planks into sticks, spit on a stick, stick a plank to it and have a pick, sword, hoe and an axe. In SC you cant punch iron ore to get iron ore, then punch ore to get iron ingots, then toss ingots at nickel ore to get ore, then whack nickel into ingots and then rub them together to get a welder. Youre wrong.
    It is a default option. Admit defeat and stop arguing.

    Its the opposite and its not a problem. No-one is gonna grief me in singlelayer with the yellow ship.
     
  15. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't have a server. Couldn't care less about multiplayer. But if this solution helps them, then great. Just because the current solution is default doesn't make it good or the better solution.

    You don't want to give up what you have because it makes things so easy for you? If everyone doesn't like it, which I doubt, then everyone can use creative to make a bigger better ship. And if it's such an insignificant step then this shouldn't be an issue for you.

    If I'm understanding this correctly, you're suggesting you'd kill yourself over and over to respawn in the small ship to gain the resources to build a large ship? And would you please expand upon the problems my solution creates?

    I think you may have misunderstood my Minecraft example. You start with nothing. You slowly gather what you need to make something better. You use that to get better/more resources which let you make even better things. That's the kind of progression I'm talking about here. Not the exact mechanics Minecraft uses to gather resources. We start in a large ship, fully equipped with everything we need. That's cool and all but it skips a step where we start out with nothing much except the bare minimum. This is supposed to be survival mode. A large ship should be an achievement to work towards, not just handed to us.

    There's a drop down list to pick from. I want this option to be first on that list and the default spawn ship. So no, it's not default.

    Sorry, I missed your post.

    Yes, I've used Respawn ship #2. If I'm going to use one of the default options, that's my first choice. It's better but it still feels like too much. I believe a refinery and a large ship should be something we have to work a bit to get. All the small ship options in the default menu won't let you make a clean start without pirating cargo ships.

    I would like to hear about anything specifically wrong with starting in a small ship other than the bother of having to manage resources and build things.
     
  16. russo_bolado

    russo_bolado Junior Engineer

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    Not saying it's not possible, but it's a bit probabilistic. And AFAIK Cargo Ships are not refit for O2, so you'll still stifle.
    Since I haven't played Survival for quite a while, that may have changed.
     
  17. SteamBoat

    SteamBoat Trainee Engineer

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    • Inappropriate language
    So stfu already. The current solution is great, better and default.
    It doesnt need changing and you can change it yourself for yourself. No-one is gonna waste development time and money, cause you dont like the color.
    It wastes KSH time and money. You can fix it yourself for free.
    No, your example was bad, as the core mechanic is different and its not rpg with progress tree.
    It is, its now a core mechanic in the game for player to use.
    You cant have a refinery without a refinery and an assembler, as i said, you idiot. And you cant refine silicon needed to build computers to build refinery OR arc furnace in arc furnace, so its necessary to start with refinery and assembler. Youre wrong again.
     
  18. OldGamer67

    OldGamer67 Apprentice Engineer

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    Clearly you've never tried. I've done it. And you're trolling. I think we're done here.
     
  19. DarkGhost

    DarkGhost Junior Engineer

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    Get back on topic and stop insulting each others, thanks.
    Moved to suggestions, also.
     
  20. Unstoppableforce

    Unstoppableforce Trainee Engineer

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    Arc Furnace accepts Fe, Co and Ni. Refinery requires computers, which require Si. So does Arc Furnace. I you think yourself smart for grinding computers out of cockpits or other systems, you admit, that they are unobtainable with arc furnace. Its a pointless hassle and if you want it so much you can us the tools provided to work it out for yourself and not force everyone else to indulge you.
     
  21. REDSHEILD

    REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    Play on lone survivor.
     
  22. blizzerd

    blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

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    I have a starter ship on my steam workspace that is a small ship with enough components to make a large grid "small cargo", large ship solar panel and either an arc furnace OR assembler.

    i think i also have one that has enough to produce 1 large grid small cargo, 1 solar panel and an assembler but not enough for an arc furnace. And a sister ship that has just enough for an arc furnace instead of an assembler and comes with a tiny bit of ore.
     
  23. Visvires

    Visvires Trainee Engineer

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    And here we are, discussing what choices the devs should make for players' defaults in a Sandbox game.

    Steamboat has it. /thread.
     
  24. Pro3Display

    Pro3Display Apprentice Engineer

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    keen could add mod api for starting options, which would be nice
    and then some modder could make a (payed?) commission of "Bear Grills" mode specially for this guy so he could have his masochistic tendencies to himself in his single-player mode
    but for me- no, ty
     
  25. Briastias

    Briastias Apprentice Engineer

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    Just a note here as I did some poking around for my Kanata respawn ship mods

    Refinery needs iron, nickel and silicon to be built
    Arc furnance makes iron, nickel and cobalt
    The silicon missing is in 20 computers
    It takes 5 computer plus iron and nickel to make a drill (large ship)

    So the min-survival is 1 x assembler, 1 x arc furnance and 20 computers or grind the computers out of something else

    The refinery is a very huge volume. I expereminted in the early Kanata with having it pre-built. Eventually I moved to the arc furnace/assembler/computer components solution

    There are some minimalized survival respawn ships.

    Having one in the options of the games default spawn ships would be a good idea for a harder survival start. As an option though. The first play throughs a 'generous' survival start gets new players into the game
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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