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Hardcore survival realism modifications - Any interest?

Discussion in 'General' started by MightyJarJead, Dec 8, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. MightyJarJead

    MightyJarJead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    14
    I see a lot of servers where 10-10-10 are the rule. 1-1-1 is an exception it seems.

    That said, on a planets server (with asteroids, infinite) would there be any interest? I am mulling the following to increase realism. My overall purpose is to make it *harder* to get off the surface, and survive in space. A feeling of reward and accomplishment.
    1. Modding out ION thrusters, or making them require fuel and be very weak with high power usage, perhaps need refined fuel, allowing a separate track from Hydrogen
    2. Modding out the jump drive - or making it use fuel (Hydrogen or other) as well as uranium. Purpose - to make long jumps almost impossible, making distance logarithmic compared to fuel/power usage starting at 20K. Yes, getting to the Alien planet 1 million meters away should take hours....
    3. Using an aerodynamics mod - and making atmospheric engines less useful at higher speeds - i.e. trying to force aerodynamic flight more
    4. Making gravity falloff more realistic - I've read a level 2 is more real. Currently it is 7.
    5. Removing the projector.. Trying to discourage testing in creative, want people to test in survival. Also removing projector eliminates someone "spawning in" cargo fully loaded (an exploit)
    6. Forcing 1st person view only. However - If there is anyway possible to allow 3rd person for placing blocks, (a mod perhaps?) I would want that.
    7. Modding out multiple respawn points. You can have multiple medbays, but can only respawn in one, and to change respawn you have to physically travel there. Large ships with MedBays on them are still allowed. Purpose: If you go into deep space, you cannot instantly get back to earth by dying and respawning in another medbay.
    8. Remove artificial gravity - or at least remove gravity drives.
    Would anyone play on such a server? Are there any other thoughts I have missed? Enjoy feedback here. Flame away.
     
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  2. DivineWrath

    DivineWrath Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    531
    I'm not interested. I've started from scratch on numerous occasions, so the appeal for a super hardcore mode isn't there right now. Its not fun anymore. I've actually changed my mind about the 10-10-10 rule not long ago. I used be 1-1-1, but I was considering changing it until planets gave me the shove that I needed. I haven't masted planets yet, not enough time to play, but I'm finding that it is almost a requirement that you up the settings so you aren't spending most of your time running back and forth through the tunnels, or spending a lot of energy by moving stone with your ships (even if that is to dump it just outside the tunnel). Mind you, I haven't been very lucky on my starting map so I'm still figuring things out.

    1. I suggest you keep ion thrusters. Hydrogen is technically a non-renewable resource that is used up quickly. Without hydrogen, even engineer couldn't fly in space. I'm not sure if you can even make practical small mining ships without ion drives.
    2. Make the jump drive use a lot of energy or use fuel. Otherwise, what are you going to do for those hours traveling to another world? Would your ship stop on its own before the gravity well, or would it crash if you weren't baby sitting it? I think you should have a better answer than logging out for a few hours.
    6. Maybe use a ship with a camera? I don't know if it'll work, but it might be worth checking out. I'll try it later.
    8. Isn't gravity drives 1 part gravity blocks and 1 part mass blocks? Could you just remove the mass blocks?
     
  3. DivineWrath

    DivineWrath Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    531
    More thoughts.

    6. I found that using a ship with a camera doesn't work well for 3rd person view. The problem is the direction the camera looks determines the direction the blocks are placed. It didn't matter which way my character was facing, if I was looking at the camera, I'll be placing blocks behind me because it made more sense for the camera.

    A tip I offered people shortly after planets were released is that you really should do some practicing for planets starting in creative. Don't start out in survival as that will be an exercise in frustration. Especially if you had habits that made sense in space. Take at least an hour to figure out how to build ships for planets and how to pilot them. When I first tried checking out what the different maps offered, I crashed my atmospheric lander as I didn't know I had to change its angle so its large thrusters pointed down (it was at night so I couldn't see well and the lander was front facing down). Even after I figured what to do, I still damaged my lander. It eventually broke to the point that it later rolled down a hill. I also couldn't remember how to freely rotate station blocks at the time, so my first station was at a weird angle (the first block was a corner sticking out of the ground)... A lot of frustration before I was able to figure things out.
     
  4. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    That might be too hard core for the game's current state. Maybe if you upped the speed limit, but I feel with all travel being limited by finite fuel reserves people aren't going to be encouraged to go anywhere. Why go to the alien planet at all? To waste ammo fighting sabiroids?

    There are 1:1:1 servers out there, and there's a reason they only get a handful of dedicated players on them.
     
  5. TungstenWall

    TungstenWall Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    129
    1- I remember seeing an an Oxygen thruster mod that uses oxygen as fuel. Not 100% realistic, but this would allow players to make an alternative fuel by using O2 farms. So while the fuel is infinite, you would be limited by how much of it you can carry/
    6- Would be more interesting if players had to make cockpits/bridges with Protection vs Visibility in mind.
    8- Just remove artificial mass blocks. Having no gravity would quickly become expensive to live in space as you could not navigate your own ship without using hydrogen. Unless your plan is to purposely limit players' ability to construct very large ships, then could be an interesting mechanic to engineer around.

    May I also suggest a Mod the adds small ship Refinery and Assembler?
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=502784953&searchtext=
    Could make early planet rover survival a little easier without players being able to exploit these (can't be used with conveyors).
     
  6. Pyronymer

    Pyronymer Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    153
    If the goal is hardcore survival realism where is the long list of realism mods that would also make the game easier?

    Starting with a less terrible default remote camera overlay.

    Seriously. What's up with that?

    But yeah. For some reason it's only ever desirable realism when it makes the game harder in stupid ways. Realist fans never seem to want realism that would make the game better or easier for some reason. And again. Seriously. What's up with that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. rittstar

    rittstar Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    80
    i am interested, actually i am going to have a long period of time to deal with vacation, so if you start the server on around the 14th.. then i have time until 18th of january to punish myself with this setup, before my wife turns back from her vacation trip to punish me
     
  8. Radma Kanow

    Radma Kanow Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    326
    I see a lot of servers where 10-10-10 are the rule. 1-1-1 is an exception it seems.
    Simple reason - enjoyment. Almost instant build, faster processing and larger inventory = faster gameplay which bring results faster = more enjoyment. People (mostly) don't want to spend hours just to create single steel plate.


    1. Modding out ION thrusters, or making them require fuel and be very weak with high power usage, perhaps need refined fuel, allowing a separate track from Hydrogen
    Well... ion thrusters work on electricity which is produced from uranium (finite fuel source) so it require fuel. Sure - solar panels for infinite but I cannot think about creating inter planetary vessel relying purely on solar power. Especially when you plan on modding power usage to be higher.

    2. Modding out the jump drive - or making it use fuel (Hydrogen or other) as well as uranium. Purpose - to make long jumps almost impossible, making distance logarithmic compared to fuel/power usage starting at 20K. Yes, getting to the Alien planet 1 million meters away should take hours....
    In my world distance between Earth-like and Alien worlds is ~6Mm. Even at modded speed ~380 m/s and 400km jump every 2 minutes it took some time to get there. I'm not saying such distances should be made with one jump but making it even longer - I don't really see the point.

    Ok, you'll get off the planet, construct proper ship, equip it and launch yourself towards Alien world. After initial acceleration phase you can power down ENTIRE ship for the duration of the flight. Only needed system is air distribution to small sealed room. Hell, knowing max speed and distance, time to accelerate you can set a program block to engage when near the Alien world and execute slow down program. Putting few more hours in between those two events adds nothing except overwhelming boredom.

    The only reason for Alien word journey to last long is to require actual re-fueling during the flight. Asteroid to asteroid small hikes with a general Alien world heading. Otherwise there's nothing to do after you get the speed.

    3. Using an aerodynamics mod - and making atmospheric engines less useful at higher speeds - i.e. trying to force aerodynamic flight more
    This I agree.

    4. Making gravity falloff more realistic - I've read a level 2 is more real. Currently it is 7.
    Take under consideration scale of our "universe". Stretching gravity field may cause them to overlap. Our planets are quite small.

    5. Removing the projector.. Trying to discourage testing in creative, want people to test in survival. Also removing projector eliminates someone "spawning in" cargo fully loaded (an exploit)
    Somewhat agree. No automatics at all. In your world you cannot make such abominations where machines create machines ;) As for projector block I see it as a "programming tool" of sorts. Not a guide to mindlessly weld to get stuff but a "program" that my factory runs and produces me something. Like car factory.

    6. Forcing 1st person view only. However - If there is anyway possible to allow 3rd person for placing blocks, (a mod perhaps?) I would want that.
    3rd person view replaces limited character movement. When placing large box I can tilt my head sideways, up and down and any other direction without moving my load. In SE it's impossible, character is stiff as a wooden plank. 3rd person fixes that. You could try limiting camera distance zoom out at 3rd person view to make it more realistic.

    7. Modding out multiple respawn points. You can have multiple medbays, but can only respawn in one, and to change respawn you have to physically travel there. Large ships with MedBays on them are still allowed. Purpose: If you go into deep space, you cannot instantly get back to earth by dying and respawning in another medbay.
    Totally agreed. There's nice live stream on YT I enjoy watching (despite I'm not watching live streams at all). The only gripe for me is when players suicide on moon just to resurrect on earth to save travel time. Bind to medbay - awesome.


    8. Remove artificial gravity - or at least remove gravity drives.
    As if we wouldn't discover that in the next 60 years? But ok, doesn't affect me so it could be like it.

    Would anyone play on such a server?
    With slight rules tweaking - sure. I'd be interested in playing on such server. Provided I gather enough courage to overcome my anti-social attitude, that is.

    Are there any other thoughts I have missed?
    I'm not entirely sure about obligatory 1x at everything. 10x is obviously OP. My current SV solo world has 1/3/10 settings and I'm slowly leaning towards limiting cargo down to 3x. Playing 1x on everything would feel like a work and I already have one. SE is a game after all and I expect it to bring me enjoyment, not long and tedious grinding.


    My overall purpose is to make it *harder* to get off the surface, and survive in space. A feeling of reward and accomplishment.
    I struggle with getting off the ground, not to mention space itself. But it may be just bad engineering. Anyway, your world feels like getting into space would feel like accomplishment.
     
  9. Dirktooth

    Dirktooth Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    159
    I love how people throw around the term "realism" as if this game is based somehow on reality.

    Like the 10-10-10 verse 1-1-1. Did someone take a grinder to space and grind a armor block? Why kind of grinder? A black and decker? What model number?

    None of this is based on fact. Yet people call it "realism"
     
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  10. MightyJarJead

    MightyJarJead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    14
    You must be a hit at the office Christmas party :)
     
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  11. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    You mistake gameplay mechanics for game philosophy. The grinder animation is a metaphor. It does not attempt to re-create the grinding process. It only shows the construction stages so that you know whether or not you need to stop. Same with welding. The "realism" part is having to refine ore and having to make components to build a device and your ship deforming and breaking up if you hit something. The term "realism" gets used inappropriately. Keen strives to make the game "plausible".
    Permanent death. Solves the respawn problem.






    Kidding.












    Maybe not.
     
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  12. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    Actually I use clear cameras, modular solar panels, and other common sense mods. I also play 3:1:1 forced first. I'm working down to 1:1:1.
     
  13. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
  14. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
     
  15. Derzuel

    Derzuel Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    28
    There's a difference between making something challenging and just making something frustrating, and the vast majority of your suggestions fall into the latter category.
     
  16. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    for #4,

    2 is better because you can actually achieve a stable orbit with it, anything other than that its impossible it seems to maintain an orbit.
     
  17. Knsgf

    Knsgf Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    538
    1 would be better gameplay-wise, as the right speed would be independent of altitude.
     
  18. DaveUnder

    DaveUnder Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    220
    I would like to point out one aspect regarding making game play harder/challenging.

    If we look SE in big picture, then the game is built the way that you should not restart with new game every week or month or ever. (yes you can do that, but that's not the case here).
    By game nature you would expand your experience in one game. You move to new areas, develop new stations etc.

    Whatever change you might consider for beginning challenge, at the end it will affect only the starting period in game play. And that is in my mind very short period in SE terms.
    At some point you will build everything big enough to compensate your initial changes.
    Currently - as soon you have all ores under your control => all challenges vanish in SE. Just build in scales of no measure.

    Specially for dedicated servers. You should concentrate more on how to keep the challenge after you have decent fleet built up and when you have decent mining operations and production operations set up.
    So to speak - think more of how to prolong the "endgame" boredom and keep the life in server in continuous endless play.

    How to balance materials for not stockpiling - what kind of resource eating sinks or mechanics should be implemented !?
    How to make sure, things are not infinite, like tools never break and so on. tools should wear down after X amount of usage - you should need to create new one or at least repair them - and that should take resources, not just welding time.
    Grinding something down = 50% of initial materials lost at least, not like now, where you get everything back.
    Pirates hit your ship = damages parts repair again should require resources, not only welding.
    Just some random aspects.

    Survival dedicated server in sandbox games should be a lot more than just place where you build with 2 friends - 10x10x10 and creative are for those scenarios.
    These games are kind of platforms where players should build up their empires and fight and work for their empires many years to come.

    Dave
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. acidmetal

    acidmetal Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    163
    SE has simply too many gamebreaking bugs right now for hardcore survival gameplay. The game is not in playable state for survival.

    But some of the things you did not mention in first post, which would make surviving actually harder.

    - Meteor storms
    - Uranium extremely rare or difficult to acquire
    - Increase cost of all blocks
    - Decrease mining yields, refining yields
    - Make death more meaningful, have medbay lose medical components on spawning, to a point of medbay breaking totally if not repaired and not possible to spawn anymore which would result a permament death
    - Make medical components cost rare materials and actually hard to craft

    There was a server with all that at some point, but the development style of Keen, by not fixing gameplay bugs, and only fixing serious crashes and such, make this kind of gameplay impossible. Also the unstable nature of dedicated servers, can render a player in such hardcore server to extinction. More often than not, currently new patches released every week are mostly untested and occasionally break some of the game features so badly, that it makes you scared to login after a patch, in fear of losing all your progress in that hardcore server.

    I have played most of my 180 hours in hardcore survival enviorment and that is the gameplay style I enjoy the most. Also one of the reasons I have not actively played the game anymore, because of bugs currently in the game that make it impossible to have hardcore experience.

    Like solar panels and batteries do not cooperate. Have made like 6 or 7 topics (6 or 7 patches) by now to bug forums, the bug still exists and none of the topics have been aknowledged by Keen, that they are aware of it or not.

    Anyway... this post is becoming a rant already. :D
    In general, yeah hardcore survival experience is challenging and fun. I agree, but game is too broken right now for that kind of gameplay.
     
  20. AlchemicalAgent

    AlchemicalAgent Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    113
    My sentiment exactly. My DS has everything set to x3 except the assembler efficiency so everything is still balanced, just doesn't take as long.
     
  21. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    If at all possible, this is the way I would like my server to run. I understand at the moment the state of the game means sometimes you start over, but my intent is to just let it run and see what happens.

    You are correct in that no matter how hard you make the game initially, within a few days of continuous play (and by that I mean if you just put in several hours a day) you should have the resources to overcome any game-induced hardships.
    Yes. What you have once everyone has their shit together is Star Trek: A weekly series where the writers need to figure out what the ship and crew are going to do. I suspect that after a few weeks I could disable NPC pirates because there will be real ones. I also suspect there will be massive battle fleets going at each other for no other reason than "I made this fleet now I have to battle." I'm mostly curious to see whether or not trade and commerce flourishes.
    Yes. If plans to link servers come to fruition, empires could indeed become epic.
    Yes, we all know. Most of us also know that current MP is just a placeholder to appease players that want to do that, and the real MP code is just now being written and optimized. Given the successful (and spectacular) implementation of planets in a game never designed to have them, I suspect ultimately the multiplayer code will also exceed expectations.
     
  22. Chaosrex

    Chaosrex Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    188
    Its allready frustrating enough to loose stuff because the server you're on is crashing every 40mins.

    Also if you're only idea of challenge is to "force" people, its no fun, something can be challenging but fun, forcing people to do something isn't.

    Work in teams and collaboration?, dude did you really play on a MP server once?, its a miracle when 4 members of a same faction are online at the same time, don't forget, Online game, players from different time zones, when i play, where i live its night time or late night, at this point my other factions members just logged and its after noon for them, or if i can play in the day, i'm alone because its the middle of the night for the others...

    When yu think things, don't only account for yourself and be egostitical, think about the other peoples who have to deal with it.
     
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  23. acidmetal

    acidmetal Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    163
    Actually most of those bugs exist in SP as well. :((
    I would love to even RP in a SP game, but yeah, falling through planets floor or the fact that batteries still deplete while Solar Panels can power whole grid, renders the gameplay unplayable.

    I understand that Keen development style is to fix only critical bugs like crashes and such. Not whining or anything.
     
  24. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Well, it's more complicated than that but, hey, you're good :).
     
  25. Aetrion

    Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    202
    Removing Ion Thrusters doesn't make the game more realistic, it makes it less realistic. Hydrogen is the one single element you can collect in open space from solar wind, but not oxygen and not in huge quantities, so ion thrusters are not just sensible, but required for long term space travel.

    Removing artificial gravity is not a possibility at this point, because without artificial gravity you have no way of getting around without a jetpack, and collectors don't work since they have no more realistic means to pull things toward themselves. The game would need a proper simulation of unassisted zero G movement where you can push off walls to get around first, and collectors with grappling hooks or something like that.
     
  26. vymasteny_pankac

    vymasteny_pankac Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    129
    hey guys, the 7th point seems very reasonable and interesting to me
    "7. Modding out multiple respawn points. You can have multiple medbays, but can only respawn in one, and to change respawn you have to physically travel there. Large ships with"

    would you know if there already is such a mod?
     
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