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Deadly Reentry

Discussion in 'General' started by Draygo, Dec 15, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
    • Like Like x 15
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,785
    Now that is freaking awesome.

    Now imagine if there was a melt effect for blocks instead of the damage effect currently in game and you would have yourself a very cool gameplay mechanic.
     
  3. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    Oh my, how very cool.

    Nevermind that at a capped 100 m/s heat drag wouldn't be a problem at all. Still very cool.
     
  4. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,785
    He was going 1000m/s

    :woot:
     
  5. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    Rentry speeds requiring meaningful heat management are several times that speed (like 5x-8x). Speed mods introduce all sorts of other problems as well.

    There is also the issue that unless the drag model includes supersonic/hypersonic effects and some thermal transport effects it will lead to re-entry hull designs that 180 degrees away from real re-entry craft, which poses a problem for "in game engineering".
     
  6. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,785
    You realize this is a video game where you can die and respawn :woot:
     
    • Like Like x 2
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  7. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,864
    And one inspired on "real life engineering" with gameplay concessions.

    Making aerodynamic heating favour designs completely opposed of IRL designs is akin to having natural gravity push instead of suck. You expect natural gravity to work a certain way, same with aerodynamics.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. MadGreyOne

    MadGreyOne Trainee Engineer

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    32
    So, last time I died I wasn't supposed to respawn 24 hours later at my house?
    Sure, you tell me this now, do you have any idea how much paperwork an unauthorized respawn generates?!?

    Back on topic, I hope to see this game going in the direction of increased (or removed) speed caps, some form of lift and atmospheric heating, food/water and a few other "realism" items. That said, I would be happy with approximation mechanics for many of these, meaning that I'd like to be able to orbit, fly with lift surfaces, etc., but I don't care about an exact replication of real world physics, just something reasonable and reasonably consistent within the game.
     
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  9. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

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    1,297
    The mod adapts to your speed cap, I think about 80m/s+ will have issues.

    At least that is my target. I aim to tweak the numbers more precisely in the coming days.

    The higher your speed cap the more 'realistic' the mod gets getting closer to the real world formulas.

    So if you play at 100m/s heat and drag will be felt. Plus you can adjust the mod's drag multiplier which impacts both drag and heat. Heat is calculated from drag.

    For even more fun try the /drag-advlift command which attempts to compute a rough 'center of lift' where 'lift forces' are applied, which will cause spin if your center of lift isn't in line.

    /drag-mult will adjust the drag multiplier, which defaults at 500 for 100m/s and 100 for 'realistic'.

    Dedicated servers can be configured by dropping the xml the mod generates into the servers storage folder for the mod. The mod will sync the settings with clients - though I haven't done extended testing on the impact of other clients in the server as some things are client authoritative. I did set the mod to only have the server calculate and perform the damage to ships.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    Are you using shock calculations to estimate your heat flux values?
     
  11. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

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    1,297
    Not yet. Its using an approximation of the heat transfer formula. I do need to build in a shock component to that. Right now its using an average, which is roughly right.

    Cant be too expensive with the calculations that are done per tick.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. FlakMagnet

    FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    I think we are missing the point here slightly discussing the realism, the mathematics and the relevant speeds and design impacts.

    We should be focusing on the fact that this is a VERY GOOD MOD and one which proves there is scope for these things.

    In much the same way that the aerofoil mod has given me different choices and exposed new gameplay features....atmospheric drag was the same. It added ( when combined with the aerofoil) the opportunity to fly designes that were not masses of thrusters, that flew a bit like planes, and generally fitted VERY well with the game even though they were mods done by fans rather than Keen team members.

    Adding re-entry conditions like this will force you to actually fly your ship down to the planet, rather than plummetting to around 4K metres, and kicking in the atmospheric thrusters.

    If this adapts to speed cap, then it might be handy to have an adjustable config file so we could dictate at what % of mx speed the effect started at? If you run with vanilla speed, the 100m/s top speed might mean you get damage at some really quite pedestrian velocities. Either that....or include a speed cap increase as part of the mod.

    My thinking is...

    Say you have the vanilla speed cap, then bump the max speed up by 10%, but have the damage effects kick in when you go beyond the original speed cap. Makes the speed cap a thing the pilot has to manage due to damage to his ship, rather than the artificial brick wall.

    Whatever.....my hat is formally doffed to the mod maker :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  13. Echillion

    Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    If they make this vanilla I'm gonna die ALOT! lol nice work though

    Edit Now that the 2nd video has been posted I definitely don't want this in vanilla
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    Sweet!

    So, uh, now that heat and dissipation thereof is being calculated...heat generation from reactors and cooling systems to deal with it? Heat shields for reentry? Are these plausible?

    "Meteoroid fragment has damaged the primary heat exchanger!"
    "Pump ice from the life support systems to stabilize the temperature and shut down all non-essential systems!"
     
  15. [GER] CreeperschreckLP

    [GER] CreeperschreckLP Trainee Engineer

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    8
    That Center of Lift idea... that goes hand in hand with those realistic physics done a while ago, well, THAT would be awesome.... sadly there was no response from the devs to the "finished" project...

    Absolutely AWESOME mod btw, that mod on steam by comfyfutons, that yours? / Are you comfyfutons?
     
  16. DakotaShock

    DakotaShock Trainee Engineer

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    78
    Think we have a problem.... Where is the heat gel?
     
  17. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

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    1,297
    I am not comfyfutons. His mod uses block recoloring. Couple of issues with that method but it works fine for the most part.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  18. jeb_cubed

    jeb_cubed Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    I think what they could do for heating is borrow some things from the game Kerbal Space Program. it does have atmospheric heating and damage in it. (these effects start at 600 m/s though)
     
  19. Thedevistator

    Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    1,942
    So a magic welder is realistic? Please, fill me in about this breakthrough.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    Logical fallacy.

    Notice the statement "gameplay concession"?
     
  21. Thedevistator

    Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    1,942
    I actually did consider that, but did you consider that he had to modify it to meet the game's speed limit? Isn't making the feature fit game limitations "gameplay concession"?
     
  22. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    Ideally all gameplay concessions should remain logical. They should work like they look like they should. The magic welder still puts things together and the magic grinder takes them apart. The compression heating should apply in a way that at least mimics reality so that it feels right.

    I have not attempted a reentry, but my thought immediately go to the NASA shuttle which actually turns its greatest surface area into its decent vector and hides behind its heat shield.
     
  23. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,864
    Indeed. All re-entry craft are bluff body, the space shuttle approximates this by descending with a positive AoA.

    But you are exactly right. The welder works in a way you expect, the grinder works in a way you expect, just like natural gravity works in a way you expect.

    The speed limit however is not something that works the way you'd expect, and no one thinks it's really a good thing gameplay wise.
     
  24. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    It isn't, but it's a technology concession. Maybe. Personally I play with 480.2 as a max speed because the game seems to handle it, at least on my computer. It's not even that I want to go that fast, I just think things should be able to go faster if they have a reason to. Like falling into a gravity well.
     
  25. Ghostickles

    Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    2,077
    Wow, yes please.
    Im really liking the Aerodynamics mod, how would this work with that and a mere 150 speed mod?
    Rhetorical, tell you in a bit.
    :)
    That was pretty awesome. Lost a good deal of a ship but survived the 'landing'. All the defenses had melted away so the bugs got me, much fun was had. :)

    Is there any way to make it so this Mod only takes effect above a certain altitude, specifically the transition between space and planetary gravity? For a few thousands of meters, of course.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  26. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,965
    C'mon guys. This is a mod. It tests and pushes the limits of the game and shows what can be done by someone with the desire and the knowledge to do such things.

    He could have created yet another gun model, but no... a mod that changes a dynamic of the game for those who want the challenge of atmospheric effects.

    I probably won't use it. But I respect the idea.
     
  27. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    It works this way. The drag force is divided by the total surface area that faces the direction of descent and calculates the compression heating from there. You have to be careful not to come in too fast still, even with a proper design if you fly in too fast that heat shield is not going to save you.
     
  28. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    Added another video. I was tweaking the damage math a little.
     
  29. DakotaShock

    DakotaShock Trainee Engineer

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    78
    @Draygo This mod is so beautiful, but unfortunately this has thrown my ODST pod idea out the window. Lol You should make another vid with a larger ship (providing your comp can handle it) :3
     
  30. Mix-martes86

    Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

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    1,110
    Amazing feat @Draygo congrats. :)
     
Thread Status:
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