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How many players in final version of netcode?

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by jetstream01, Jan 16, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. jetstream01

    jetstream01 Apprentice Engineer

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    133
    This is the NUMBER ONE question I want answered, but no one else seems to be asking it. We know KSH is working on new netcode, but what we have no idea about is what exactly their goals are. We need to know this-how many players can we realistically expect on the finished version of SE multiplayer servers?

    We need to make sure that the community's expectations is aligned with Keen's vision for multiplayer-and if not, we need to do something to fix it.

    I don't know about you guys, but I personally have always hoped we'd be able to get at least 100 players into a server and still have it play smoothly. I don't expect SE to ever have player numbers in the thousands, but as it stands right now we have NO IDEA. Can someone from Keen please answer this question for us? Or if not, community will you please help me get this question answered at the next Q&A opportunity?

    I'm not expecting a concrete answer, but I just want to know what the devs think-can we expect to have hundreds of players or are we always going to be limited to a dozen or so? What is their vision of this?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  2. AtlantisThief

    AtlantisThief Apprentice Engineer

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    300
    Actually I would be impressed if we would be able to maintain the game performance with 32+ players. The number is takne completly without any calculations, but the average player count you have right now + an stability improvment so the server doesn't already drop sim-speed with 10 people playing for more then 5 hours.
     
  3. Harrekin

    Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    If they officially introduce the server jumping feature you won't need to have all the players in the one server to have them all in the same world.

    You could set up seperate star systems for seperate factions, one server for mining on, etc.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Sinbad

    Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    3.5million.
    ok, probably not.
    they did mention persistent official servers in the road map though. if they took one universe and broke it up into small cells, then ran one cell per server with transition borders that overlapped (so for a couple of kilometers you are instanced on both servers so interactions can take place on the boarders) you could probably get quite high numbers. extending the universe is then just adding more servers and more cells.
    so a cell might end up being a cube of space 1000km on a side, just stack them together.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Ulfsark

    Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    3,057
    At what point have they ever hinted or suggested they would do that? Server jumping?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. rexxar

    rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    They haven't. And AFAIK, Tyrsis is the only one who's ever pulled it off, and it was a huge mess, as I understand.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Harrekin

    Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Was the basic version not merged as a pull request from GitHub?

    That would be what I'd consider an endorsement of the concept...
     
  8. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    I've heard potentially hundreds - but realistically I would be happy with 32 players and a mostly normal experience.

    There will always be a difference between how many players the server can handle in total totally, and how many players the game/server can handle in one immediate location.

    A server could handle 32 players for example, but things might start going wonky when several players are doing something intensive in one location like fighting.
     
  9. DeeDee

    DeeDee Trainee Engineer

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    23
    I am sure lot of us would like to know if 100 players on one server is the Keen's goal. Somebody can try to mention this in Q&A part of the future Streams.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Ulfsark

    Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    3,057
    Hate to break it to you guys, but the netcode is pretty much done. This is it. This is our new netcode.

    Its a kitbashed jury rigged Frankenstein of Raknet and Steam .....
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Aracus

    Aracus Senior Engineer

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    1,931
    I really hope that's a case of Marek being further misinformed...
     
  12. Echillion

    Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    Yes its quite remarkable how with 1 update we get 100+ fps 60 ups and 1.00 on personal and server sim speeds? might be because we started a fresh map? but I doubt it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. jetstream01

    jetstream01 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    133
    This is the issue I'm talking about-everything everyone has posted above is pure speculation, because we really have no idea what their goal is. I would be happy with like 20 players in one location, but over 100 in the server total (in vastly spread out locations). Let's try and ask KSH during one of the streams! Post here if you get an answer. I'm trying to ask Xocliw on his stream right now.
     
  14. jetstream01

    jetstream01 Apprentice Engineer

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    133
    Ahhh! Dangit Xocliw was so close to answering my question during the livestream...he even read it and started to answer but then said he was too tired to answer questions lol. Oh well next time!
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  15. vymasteny_pankac

    vymasteny_pankac Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    129
    Please, don't keep it for yourself and let us know where did you hear such info about hundreds of players.


    On these forums, "the netcode" is more or less associated with the server application, not about exchanging info between server and clients. while this exchange of info seems to be way better and we see less de-sync in multiplayer, the server app is a huge problem as it is only single threaded application. there is info, they are about to separate non-realtime calculations from the main thread, the implementation will definitely take some time as it also means changes in core engine of the game. also, i just hope they will try to create more threads, not only one real time and a secondary one for everything else.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    You could have over 1k people on a server, you also can have thousands in a server cluster. It is entirely possible to do both these things.

    Devs need to work on quite a few things to get at that level. The question is more about keens goal. While its possible to have hundreds of players on a server it requires a certain design.
     
  17. jetstream01

    jetstream01 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    133
    This is exactly what I'm trying to rectify here-we need to know what Keen's goal is regarding player numbers in a server.

    All the time we see/hear players talk about these fantasies of where SE will be when it's finished...having servers with hundreds of people with big space battles or even thriving communities with trade hubs and big factions (even Marek mentioned trade hubs and a basic economy). All we simply want is to know what they are planning, what they see as possible, and what their goals are.
     
  18. Draygo

    Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    Its possible to have hundreds on a server the new netcode actually stands in the way of that.

    The server for example does not have to run at 60 UPS to give everyone a smooth experience, heck it can run at 2 UPS while all clients are running at 60. Right now if the server is running at 2 all the clients are running at 2 the way keen is syncing things up.

    The server doesn't actually need to run a full simulation of the world, but handle culling of objects so clients are running their own 'mini' worlds in the same space, objects that are simply too far away your client shouldn't know about at all. The majority of players playing Space Engineers tend to escape into 'single player bubbles', there is almost no reason to have the server run a full simulation of a single player bubble, just enough to check once in a while. Server should be able to correct sync issues when they happen. Basic design should not require the client to run an exact simulation of what is happening on the server. If the server allowed this sort of desync'd play then you could also build in clustering, where players when in transition zones are actually connected to more than one server, once they leave that transition zone they then are on a new server, all in the background. Right now with the hard sync this is not a possible thing to do without massive rubber-banding effects.

    I would like to see servers being able to scale into clusters of servers, when you can get to the clustering level then you can have multiple thousands of people on a single map sector. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. PhoenixTheSage

    PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677
    Sorry to break it to you, but this is still misinformation, and it comes as a product of miscommunication with Keen. There is still no defining end to changes they are making, and those changes are still happening. I keep seeing you and others claim "this is it!" when in reality, that's a bit ignorant (no offense) of what's really going on in the code. So please don't go giving everyone, including yourself, a reason to hit the panic button. And this being besides the fact that there has been no official word on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Ulfsark

    Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    3,057
    I was like you once.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. LATENT PRECISE-IMPOSER

    LATENT PRECISE-IMPOSER Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    194
    The biggest issue that we should be talking about is resource issues

    we're going to see maps absolutely devoid of materials, planets mined and cored out in a matter of hours and the ambushing of every single derelict ship that floats into space

    And that's with a server of 1 person
     
  22. Ulfsark

    Ulfsark Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,057
    Here you go ...

    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/any-news-about-the-netcode.7376798page-$1.html#post-1286911091
     
  23. zDeveloper10

    zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

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    742
    at the same time if we just give players more ore, they might build a few ships and wonder why they hadn't just launched in creative.
    perhaps that plus something else(idk yet) to keep people engaged beyond searching for ore and building bigger ships for more ore?
     
  24. LATENT PRECISE-IMPOSER

    LATENT PRECISE-IMPOSER Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    194
    ... More Pirates?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. PhoenixTheSage

    PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677
  26. rexxar

    rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    That came from some random person answering the tech support email address, I don't put any value in it. The only reason I did was because I didn't have the connections with Keen that I do now, and I had nothing else to go on. What they said could have even been a mistranslation. It isn't hard to screw up "We rewrote the netcode" and "we started to rewrite the netcode".

    We still have a long way to go with the netcode, and they are still working on it.
     
  27. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    Just because you've lost hope there's no reason to become a killjoy for those of us who still believe. What do you have to gain?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. wallofchaos

    wallofchaos Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    23
    You cant even have 2 players on a server right now and play. Everything shakes like crazy. Server crashes every 5 minutes. its absolutely ridiculous. I dont see this game going anywhere anytime soon. come back in 2 or 5 years. they might pull something together. Right now its a freekin 25$ joke.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  29. rexxar

    rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    That's because you're a) running your server incorrectly or b) running it on underpowered hardware.

    Many people run servers up to 20 people no problem. Those with top-tier hardware can do 30-40. Hell, I run my server on a crappy old laptop with a 2GHz processor and had no trouble with four people. I even ran one on a 3GHz Pentium4 and it would have run just fine if I'd had more RAM in it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Carl the BedWetter

    Carl the BedWetter Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    66
    Guys don't sugar coat it. It's pretty bad out there. Been trying to find a stable sever for days. Fountain core has gotten so bad it can't stay up for more than an hour. From the crashing to ship speed being slowed down to a crawl it's just not fun to play anymore. I wana play so bad though, it's eating at me. My friends whom I used to play with still refuse to come back and give it another go around. Even after planets. Sigh...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.