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[01.172] Large grid small ion thruster damage distance doubled

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Riz, Feb 9, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. NikolasMarch Junior Engineer

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    927
    this just destroys our attempts to hide these horrible looking poking out thruster blocks :(
    sh*t storm incoming!
     
  2. Regn Trainee Engineer

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    74
    It's not just Ion, but Hydrogen as well.

    [​IMG]

    I'm turning thruster damage off in all my games from now on since it's gonna be like this =]
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    Well, looking at this, I’d say the only one that should be safe is the catwalk block. Doors and interior blocks shouldn’t be expected to deal with those temperatures of thruster output passing thru the middle. It sucks having to update designs and delete thruster shrouds that look neat. I’ve got ships in that camp too. But still, things will change. Suck it up.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

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    469
    Both the Half block corner and the slope tip should also be safe, they clear the actual thruster plume. Since they are made from the same materials the actual thruster cone is made from, proximity alone shouldn't be sufficient to damage the block, only being in the direct cone of exhaust.

    Unless new materials are implemented to explain why the thruster doesn't melt itself while also melting blocks around it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    227
    Please stop being a disgusting sycophant.

    If Keen were even half-way competent they would not have allowed placing blocks so close to thrusters from the beginning, and we would have accepted and dealt with it; changing the 'rules' for building after 4 YEARS indicates a massive lack of common sense and competence, and smacks of total ignorance towards the thousands of people it affects. Again, no consultation, no warning, and they know damn-well it will break a massive number of ships yet do it anyway; this is not how you develop a game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. SunGod Trainee Engineer

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    24
    Even after the Friday stealth patch, engine mods are getting screwed over as well. Now when I try to take my ship into orbit, once I leave the atmosphere my ion engines lose complete control and I just accelerate uncontrollably into space. In one case, I lost all x/y/z controls in high orbit (inside the planet's gravity well) and was spinning out of control.

    This is so messed up. WTF Keen. Announce this kind of change in advance and test it in a separate branch with modders before you drop this garbage on us in a production release. It's unacceptable and inexcusable. Keen is a business, we are customers, and your customers are tired of this.
     
  7. piratep2r Trainee Engineer

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    40
    I recognize that my opinion is going to be deeply unpopular, but I also think buried thrusters are fairly dumb. I do however think KSH should allow them to exhaust their thruster wash through clear openings like Lt_duckweed pictures though.

    In my mind the simple solution is this:

    1. Create a cube thruster wash where each edge of the touching cube face is within the circle of the model's thruster port itself. Because apparently cubes are better, per KSH.
    2. Make thruster wash long. Like, real long. say, 10 blocks small thruster, 20 blocks large thruster.
    3. Blocks damaged by thruster wash stop the wash from affecting blocks behind them. But all blocks take 10x the damage they took in 1.83 (1.83 had 18 minutes of full thrust before a large grid/heavy armor block died)

    Blammo. Thruster channels are still a thing, and now most ships won't be able to realistically have internal thrusters in a box. Landing pads are again something you can have. Stupid huge designs can still do what they want with internal thrusters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  8. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    469
    Not against your suggested changes, the length of thruster damage could be infinite to the parent grid for all I care, I just want to be able to put a realistic shroud around the thruster exhaust and not leave a vital ship system completely exposed in a way that looks nice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. SunGod Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    24
    Addendum to the issue that still exists in Friday's stealth patch where ion thrusters accelerate out out of control even if inertial dampers are on:

    To reproduce...
    1. Accelerate straight up using atmos.
    2. When you get high enough, kick on your ion thrusters.
    3. Leave inertial dampers on or off, it doesn't matter.
    4. Disable your atmos when they stop being effective (will be under 20,000m altitude). You're now on ion thrusters only and heading up. You can be at any rate of speed, doesn't seem to matter.
    5. The second you hit 20,000m altitude, there's a shudder, and your ship will accelerate uncontrollably in its current direction.
    6. You will lose x/y/x control.
    7. Turning the engines on and off doesn't matter.
    8. Turning on and off inertial thrusters doesn't matter.
    9. Pausing and unpausing the game doesn't matter.
    10. You can easily accelerate to 2,000m/s and higher within seconds, even without touching the controls.
    If this isn't completely messed up, I don't know what is. I've tried and retried workarounds to this several times after the Friday stealth patch, and nothing works. Ion engines are totally hosed by the "tweak" thruster changes from 1.184.6.

    This is absolutely game-breaking stuff. Two days in a row I can't do anything with SE because "tweaks" blew up core gameplay without notice. Sigh.

    Who's doing the QA on these builds?
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  10. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    227
    We are. :D

    No, really- there is no way that broken thrusters, jump drives and cockpits could possibly have gotten past QA testing, unless they didn't actually do any ( beyond loading an empty world and saying 'okay, the game didn't crash on loading so it must be fine' ).

    Regarding hydrogen and ion thrusters being buried- we wouldn't need to so much if A) Ion thrusters weren't so damned ugly ( look how nice some of the mod'd thrusters look- I'd be happy to have some of those sticking out the backside of my ships ), and B) hydrogen thrusters didn't have gaps in each corner that allows enemy players to sneak inside your ship + cause ships not to be air tight without adding extra layers of armour behind thrusters to seal them.

    I would propose a competition- Keen should ( should, not could... ) ask players to design new thrusters to replace the ugly/flawed existing ones, the only rule being the occupy the same area/volume and have the same attachment points/conveyor ports. The winner gets a small prize of some sort, and their design(s) become the new Vanilla thruster model. How's that for mending broken bridges and engaging the community?
     
  11. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    521
    Wait, small grid thrusters are damaging large grid heavy armor? I thought they'd specifically disabled that to allow for landing pads.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Whiplash141 Junior Engineer

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    958
    Heavy armor actually doesn't seem to take any thruster damage.
     
  13. SunGod Trainee Engineer

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    24
    Feels that way. And given that Keen intentionally added mod support to help extend the game and build a community, it’s clearly in Keen’s financial interests to keep nurturing that modding community by working collaboratively with it, not by releasing builds that break the most popular mods that should conform to their modding guidelines (if they exist, I honesty don’t know if they do or not).

    It does seem sensible that as part of final testing of a build that Keen would fire up a couple different worlds that contain builds using the most popular block mods, and just make sure that blatantly obviously game-breaking things aren’t happening. It took me like three minutes to find that a popular Azimuth cockpit was causing a crash just by entering it. It took me another two minutes to know that a popular ion engine was going nuts when just trying to get into orbit. These are trivially-easy use cases to reproduce: Enter Test ship in Test world that uses most popular cockpit mod, most popular engine mod, launch into orbit and leave gravity well, ensure inertial dampeners work properly. Easy peasey.

    Imagine if somebody had done that simple 10 minute test. It would have saved the entire community and the dev team a world of heartburn.

    That’s what all good companies should do. Just sayin’.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    469
    Normally I'd defend the small dev team by saying they are a fairly small team. But as you point out, it really didn't take long to find repeatable bugs and compatibility problems so its not exactly a good excuse. Some prior forethought about the consequences of changes, however well intentioned, would go a long way towards maintaining player satisfaction and faith in the game.

    It really shouldn't be the case that people are having their designs and mod's wrecked by something that is justified in the name of minor performance tweaking. We expect things to get altered like this in a major update, but for minor updates I doubt most of us expect to have to rebuild our propulsion systems.
     
  15. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    Your expectations of blowing hot exhaust through an interior door are unreasonable. But hey, I learned a new word.
     
  16. Shabazza Junior Engineer

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    687
    Didn't they disable thruster damage of small grids to large grids a while ago? So it should only be a problem for large ships landing.
    And even then, You can use blast door blocks for the critical landing pad zones. This was also common practice in the past, afaik.
     
  17. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    227
    Blowing exhaust through doors is a little bit much to expect, though that's never something I've built into my ships- it's the inability to use corner blocks or half blocks to narrow the opening around the exhaust which is the issue, and that much was never, should never have been unreasonable- indeed, it wasn't, until now. Moving the goal posts 4 years after scoring the goal and declaring it as a miss is a little bit much.

    They changed that too, apparently- as we've been saying, this is a massive change in thruster behaviour and makes it impossible to have small/compact docking ports, let alone be able to land on anything other than blast door blocks; you can't even dock NEXT TO a horizontal or vertical port in space any more without burning your ship to pieces- that was never much of an issue in the past.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Pegas519 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    201

    I understand. I never noticed anything, since I always built with the understanding that the damage system was taking the entire block under consideration, either or not there is empty space. Always leave 5 empty space between your thrusters and any blocks you want to place in front. That update didn't affect any of my creation as I learned this very early on.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.