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200mm Missile impacts - how to push one out of a fight

Discussion in 'General' started by Sarekh, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Sarekh Junior Engineer

    Top of the day to you, fine folks!

    I had a longer break from testing out combat ships for a while so I don't know if the phenomenon has actually been implemented with the latest patch but I am assuming it has been so:

    weapon impacts, especially explosions from the 200mm missiles will now push your ship away from the explosion. It's prolly intended as they features this heavily in the trailer for the major update.

    And here's the thing: I find it beyond awesome up to a certain point. Not being able to hold course in a fighter or a scout ship while artillery is pounding in is good for many reasons: it gives a feeling of power to the weapons, it means that I will want to work with better approach tactics and so on. It also simply looks insanely cool.

    Another HUGE improvement is that it nerfs PVP trolling as suicide runs with a tiny bit of ship will now be a thing of the past.

    but... buuuuuuut:

    Today I had number of testfights against older versions of my own ships. I witnessed a carrier with 11,706,993 Kg of mass and a battleship with 22,546,864 Kg of mass not being able to exchange more that one broadside because they were both brought not only to a complete halt by the impact of a dozen or so missiles but also pushed back out of the 800m range zone.
    A 22,546,864 Kg ship with almost 140 large grid thrusters being active and powered (well powered) should bot be brought to a halt and then be pushed out by weapons that do not even gnaw away the outer hull during that process.

    Granted, I do slap an aweful lot of turrets on my ships (give me more turret options akin to MexPex packs and I promise I will stop) - but this has completely changed any and all combat interaction for me now:

    All my PMW missiles, large grid and small grid will be useless now if there is one missile turret present - the missile will get pushed out of the way no matter how fast and well powered it is. Every destroyer wanting to engange a cruiser will get torn apart now because while rotating through weaponry arcs while attacking does not work as you cannot control your course anymore. A single hit for any of my fighters with a missile and I find myself halfway out of the battlefield, funnily enough with the ship largely intact.

    I find the concept itself very appealing but I think it's gonna take some major tweaking before I like it. Things have been broken in my ships before, loads of time - I happily redesign them according to the progress of the game. But this currently has me scratching my head. Am I missing something here in terms of thrusters, gyros, missiles, mass, anything? I don't know how to make broadside exchanges or PMW attacks viable again right now.

    How is the situation for you? Do you have the same issues? Am I just not using my ships right? Any tips?
  2. TenshouYoku Trainee Engineer

    I am no PVP guy myself, but I did some test runs with my nimble crafts with NPCs.
    There are a lot of times where my craft exploded somewhere and started spinning uncontrollably, and I was like oh well the ship is blown up to smithereens, but somehow the damage is actually tame. Guess this is the reason why.
  3. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Can missile turrets even hit PMWs using an evasion script? Accuracy against accelerating targets has always been notoriously bad.

    I promised myself that I wouldn't come back to SE until all of the combat meta was stabilized to some final product because of changes with implications like this.

    I'm not sure I like the idea of missiles being a "crowd control" weapon one bit, though.
  4. Sarekh Junior Engineer


    I have been under the impression that it's always MY turrets that have problems with hitting accelerating things and not the other way around - I always get hit just fine :-D

    But yeah, my 100m/s PMW that approach on a linear vector will be almost certainly be blown out of the way and erratic PMW will also most likely be stopped. So far the only thing that works half way is PWM clusters approaching. if the target has more than 2 missile turrets I never score a hit.
  5. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

    While this is a bit of an exaggerated example, I do find the knockback on missiles a bit on the high end which can be problematic. I feel the impulse generated would be more appropriate for cannons, right now making large ships come to a stop in a firefight is a bit too much.
  6. Zoladen Trainee Engineer

    Maybe mass of the target doesn't affect the push it receives from missiles currently?

    I like your ships.
  7. Sarekh Junior Engineer

    that's exactly what I am thinking.
  8. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    ahhhh missiles. :) i remember dodging some from a turret feeling like the doom guy fighting the cyberdemon .

    then i got hit by one and suddenly i couldn't control my ship anymore?
    I went into third person and saw the entire backend of my ship was gone and i was a lone cockpit floating in space.....good times.

    im not good at pvp but the odd time i space two manual turrets and a camera in the middle im quite surprised by how effect it is at disabling other turrets if you can zone in on them and get shots off before they shoot you to pieces
  9. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

    The problem is the way impulse is calculated in MyExplosion. The mass does effect it, but its resistance to impulse reaches a maximum, of which this threshold causes an inherent problem for high-mass grids and current impulse values are a bit too high. That's about the sum of it for vanilla. The problem is far worse for modded ammunition.

    The impulse for vanilla only has to deal with one missile definition , and they could change the hardcoded statics to lower it's currently OP effect on most grids but that wouldn't actually solve the problem with mods. We only have access to one value that effects impulse on any significant level and that's explosive radius:

    m_explosionInfo.StrengthImpulse = 100f * (float)this.m_explosionSphere.Radius;
    m_explosionInfo.StrengthAngularImpulse = 50000f;

    As you can see here, radius acts as a multiplier to static impulse values. There's also supposed to be impulse values from damage, but I have no evidence of that from my testing, so if it's there, it's so minor that it doesn't mean much compared to the radius multiplier. Even if it was effective, it also uses static values rather than a missile's mass...and this is a very big problem for modded ammunition like those I have included in Mexpex Warfare Industries for instance. These impulse effects are then checked against mass for a supposed Dmg/Radius/Mass calculation.

    The static values (which shouldn't be static, they should give us non-private definitions for them) are too high, and radius is our only real control right now.
    This forces us into a corner as to how existing weapons are designed, should it remain this way.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 5
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  10. sammyvoncheese Apprentice Engineer

  11. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Reading the following post in here, sounds like someone didn't fully think out the math used to calculate explosion impulse. Or the way it was implemented in the code.

    Not really surprised, this sort of thing is bound to happen. As long as they balance it out to something reasonable.

    At a more general level, I don't think we will ever reach a truly satisfactory overall weapons balance.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    The calculation needs to incorporate mass and any active inertial dampeners. Simply calculating on mass is a bit silly. My thought is the dev only contemplated a single missile hit rather than the multiples that take place in any battle.

    Once the mass is over a certain number the effect should be negated.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Plongo Trainee Engineer

    I've noticed that the new calculations that warheads require when exploding are extremely game taxing. One of my PMWs i now call 'game breaker' has 60 some small warheads in it, and will freeze (and 90% of the time crash the game) the game when ever it makes contact with grids, due to each warheads interaction on the grids its detonating next to as well as its own grid. Never happened before update. It's a cool feature that explosions have impulse, but its causing some serious performance issues as well as what you described.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. sammyvoncheese Apprentice Engineer