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A Difference between a Block and a Line

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by BlankWarningsign, Apr 16, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    Prelude:
    With the new update with the Glorious Glass, it has become all to apparent to me that the "Single Item Per Block" Methodology is flawed.


    The Problem:

    [​IMG]

    The Red Blocks are the blocks that are totally taken up by the objects, regardless of the object's "Actual" size.


    [​IMG]

    In order to encase One block in Cover Walls, you need to occupy Four blocks.


    [​IMG]
    Glass cannot connect to each other at all if they are the same block, and they take up a Whole Block just to exist on the fine edge, making ship decorations needlessly space consuming. And what is the currect solution to this problem?


    [​IMG]
    A massive, overly complicated, and ridiculous object list, taking up literally double the amount of objects in the game's inventory, and forcing the player to learn this unintuitive list of arbitrarily 'different' objects and craft The SAME panel of glass as if it were two different objects.

    [​IMG]
    In every sense, this is a total waste of space.


    Some Solutions:

    A revamp of the way Blocks are handled by adding two new classifications of objects. Line-Objects, And Free-Objects.

    Line-Objects: These blocks will be your Cover Walls, Railings, Glass Panels, and other objects that Only Exist on the Lines between the blocks, No Two Line-Objects can exist on the same line, but Block-Objects can occupy the Block Space directly adjacent to the Line-Object. These Line-Objects must be connected to one of the two blocks on either side of it, HOWEVER, they will not have a Bias toward either block, so if one is destroyed or removed, it will still be attached via the other block. This will cut the Glass Panel List by half, and allow you to simply Rotate the glass panel to have Shaded or Clear side. This will also make those annoying Catwalks obsolete, and replace them with Catwalk Panel (Block-Object) and Railings (Line-Object)

    Free-Objects: These will be your Lights, Switches, Buttons, Paintings, Beds, Passenger Chairs, anything in the "other" category of your items. These Items have two modes, "Snap Mode" and "Free Mode".

    In Snap Mode, they will snap to one of Nine Locations on the block. Only one Free-Object can occupy a Snapped Location at a time while in this Mode, totaling in Nine Items that can take up one face.

    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |
    ____________________
    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |
    ____________________
    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |

    In "Free Mode" the objects can be placed literally Anywhere on the block's face except for within a few inches of the edges of the block, so as to not interfere with any future Line-Object neighbors it might have.

    Other Ideas:

    Subdivide each Large Ship Block into a 3x3x3 grid Like shown below:
    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |
    ____________________
    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |
    ____________________
    | |
    Here | Here | Here
    | |
    Questions, Comments, and Ideas!

    Leave a comment if you like this idea, or if you have any that would improve or expand on it. If I like it I'll throw it up here in the OP with your name on it =^_^=
     
  2. Relkan Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    117
    Good gravy yes! I love your idea of making a distinction between line and whole blocks. Would open up a lot more options to ship building.
     
  3. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,930
    This is glorious. I love it.
     
  4. Angry Mexicans Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    704
    Make it so!
     
  5. RazersEdge Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    181
    DEFINITELY a good suggestion! And very well laid out too!
     
  6. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    HOLY CRAP O_O

    Leonhardt actually LIKES an idea.... and its Mine?

    creepy ._.

    thank you
     
  7. Leadfootslim Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,300
    While I'd love to see this, it'd be pretty hard to put in at a code level; the best compromise we can get is allowing certain block types to be placed overlapping inside a block space.
     
  8. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    Humbug! This Dev team is Amazing!

    DON'T LISTEN TO THE DOUBTERS DEVS!
    DON'T BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!
    BELIEVE IN THE ME THAT BELIEVES IN YOU!!!!!!!
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Ver Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    115
     
  10. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    Awesome idea. I'd suggested something similar in a separate thread but this is a well-though out way of doing it.

    I do wonder though if it might cause an issue with certain blocks.

    E.g. My yacht has a glass cockpit, 3 wide x 3 high x 2 deep. It uses the 1x2 glass slopes and 1x2 glass faces.

    What I would like to do is have a glass floor between the bottom and middle blocks, that completely covers the cockpit space. This would require a 1x2 flat, and 2 1x2 sides. (I hope you can visualise, if not I can edit in a picture later).

    With your suggestion, would doing this be possible?
     
  11. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    194
    Yes, for the love of Satan yes!
     
  12. Nukesnipe Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    95
    Bring us to victory, Kamina! Bring us intuitive parts lists!
     
  13. Lancar Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227
    This is pretty reminiscent of the way the game Wurm Online uses to manage building & fence placement. In it, each block section on the the ground has a border which you can select and build things on, in addition to the normal per-block construction. They also implemented the ability to place items anywhere in a block square, move them around where you want them, and the game remembers this placement indefinitely.

    However, that game does not operate using a 3-dimensional block grid, like Minecraft and Space Engineers do. It uses a "corner height" system, that calculates each squares form and height by looking at how high each of its 4 corners are from the server zero-plane, then stretches the texture out inbetween them. It's kind of like having a hammock attached to 4 poles, and the height of the poles decides how the hammock will hang.
    The system is powerful in that it allows terraforming, but limited in that it does not work very well in the Z axis, only X and Y, which made extensive modifications needed to enable multi-floored buildings, for example.


    I'm not saying the idea is impossible to implement in SE by any means, but I believe some core engine changes would need to be made to do it. And these changes would likely take quite a lot of time. Time, that they they might want to spend on other areas right now.
     
  14. Ash87 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    +1, I was thinking about this the other night.
     
  15. Virakotxa Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    376
    +1 Too! The new glass panels got me to want metal panels, too... But playing around with the space-eating configuration and the "absurd" flipped independent pieces (no wonder one was forgotten and some transparencies off) It got me almost not want them... But with this! There is a bit of it when playing with symmetry-planes... It's used for deciding odd or paired symmetry, as you know... But wouldn't it be good? Solar panels could also better their placement from this... And believe bigger parts, like big-thrusters and refineries, could also solve the incorrect mirroring by implementing this.

    Kept thinking... Not for us to decide viability, but not to hype either: I think this just miiiight go against the boxel-grid engine-principle this hold thing is built upon.
     
  16. Skeloton Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,069
    Sure hope this is possible.
     
  17. cornivius Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    74
    This would be awesome. Plus, the catwalk panel could be used to hide machinery like grav generators or the pipes when they are introduced.
     
  18. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    The possibilities are truly boundless with this system. Even if all we get are the Line-Objects and the Free-Objects aren't used, I would still be VERY happy.

    Because the "one item per block" methodology is truly flawed, and nothing demonstrates that fact better than our (REALLY COOL) glass blocks.

    I'm just wanting this game to be better ^_^
     
  19. Grimly Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    74
    If you look at your save files, they all are made up with XML.
    All blocks of a ship is related to an initial point (maybe the first block placed, I still don't know) and then all blocks are placed in a 3D grid using coordinates.
    So they would be running into the same problem as in Minecraft where you can't put two torches in a same corner block.
    The Minecraft modding community made some tools to go around that (ForgeMultiparts) but this won't be easy. What will you weld/grind/hit ? This complexity may come, but I would not expect that soon.
     
  20. DocMop Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    575
    +1 ... no +100

    I NEED THIS! This would add so much flexibility. Now they only need half-blocks too (these damm fences are not 1 block in height!!) and I'm truly happy with block placement.
     
  21. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    Surely it would require a rework that can register more than one object in the same grid coordinate, depending on certain conditions (Intersecting collision meshs say, or the line/free object idea here) and a change that you weld the object of the collision mesh you are aiming at, as long as you are close enough (Which really is already there now, it just also highlights the grid coordinate that the block you're aiming at is occupying.

    I'm a coder, but not a games programmer, so I'm not sure how much work this would be (more if you tried to write individual IDs for every combination, which is Minecraft's problem) but I think the devs can handle that.
     
  22. Restoon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    96
    I more believe in few blocks in one "point" in grid, then in using something between actually int coordinates (like between x,y 1,2 and 2,2 if coordinates can't be float)... devs know better, but back to original post: I HATE THESE 3x3x3 METERS LAMPS! Khm. Yes, we need this some way.

    P.S.: To "How they must know, which block you actually weld" post. Try paint block, placed BEHIND metal window. If you not point aim at metal parts, but in empty between them - you easily can paint block behind it. So they ALREADY knows, what block you aim at by model shape. Also, there is definition for unattachable sides for blocks, so why not definition for "unused"?
     
  23. OrangeAaron Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
  24. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    My Rebuttal

     
  25. Martinineter Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,253
    Word cannot explain how much this thing is needed, it simply can't.

    So, without further ado:

    [​IMG]
     
  26. DaePrice Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    134
    + all my monies

    This would take the game from alpha to release in my book. Ok, maybe not quite.

    Even the complex sub part type system (forge multipart) would work fine in this scenario. The grid system could simply add interior sub divisions for each part placed.

    Honestly, i think they should just merge small block and large block definitions, as small is already 1/5th scale of large blocks (unless you tweak the scale size in block definitions)
     
  27. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    Dawwww, Tardar Sause =^_^=
     
  28. erdrik Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    229
    er-mer-gerd YES!
    +everything.

    ..achem.. I mean I totaly and completely agree with the OPs idea, and would very much like to see this implemented in game.


    Im throwin' mah monies at the screen, but nothin' be happ'nin'!
     
  29. DMMWolf Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    300
    This Would simplify the builds For SO many ship designs. and Imagine the Space Compression. You use full blocks to layer the outer hull and single Line Fill blocks to denote internals without having to have a large ship with each room having walls about three meters thick.
     
  30. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    Ooooo I like this idea, I have no idea what it means, but it sounds awesome!

    While I like your idea, i think the textures would get really weird REALLY fast!
     
Thread Status:
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