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Basic Assembler Teaser

Discussion in 'General' started by kcjunkbox, Apr 20, 2017 at 19:28.

  1. kcjunkbox

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    There have been a few discussions about a similar feature before. The idea being a way to start with as little as possible and then work your way up to bigger things. For example a single block or just your suit that does basic things you will need in order to build the assembler and arc furnace and scale up from there. I personally like hard starts were all I have is a small container full of enough parts to make a power source, arc furnace and assembler. The problem with this is that you must start with a refined Silicon in that container since the arc furnace does not refine silicon which will be needed to build enough computer chips to advance to a refinery. Alternatively you can make all the parts you need for the refinery except the computer chips and then scavenge them from the assembler and build the refinery, refine silicon and then scavange them back from the refinery to the assembler and make more computers and then you are set. This is a grind of course.

    All you really need to start with is enough Iron, Nickel and Silicon and the parts to weld an assembler and power source to run the assembler. Alternatively, a small low power and slow basic refinery that just refines iron, nickel and silicon and a basic assembler that just assembles the parts to make the existing assembler and then from there you can make arc furnaces and refineries and off you go. This assumes that the current recipies remain the same.

    I like the idea of a randomely spawned location of an small escape pod with a parachute, small container and a passenger seat. The small container has the parts for a battery, basic assembler and basic refinery. This is a nice minimal hard start. There are a couple "hard start" worlds on the work shop that are similar except that you just start next to a small container with parts for battery, solar panel, arc furnace and assembler in it. I typically build the assembler first, attach an unfinished rotor to it, remove the large part and attach a small part so I can build a small battery since the small batteries have better stats than the large battery. I then attach small solar panels to it but save enough for a single small solar panel. I then use the left over parts with the assembler to disassemble and assemble all the parts I need for a small solar/battery rover with ore detector to scout for materials. I tried to make a small single atmo thruster drone but you need a metal grid and there is no cobalt in the parts in those scenarios. So rover is the only option.

    So what do we think the new assembler should be capable of?

    Should we get a new basic refinery or is the arc furnace adaquate?
     
  2. Forcedminer

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    I have tried parachute spawns many many times...........they're pretty awful...awesome experience but 90% of the time you'd crash land and die or land in a tree explode and die....and be stuck with a delightful respawn timer....guess that sperm didn't win that race.


    but yeah the basic assembler should be able to make all the parts needed to make the next tier of assembler.....then that bigger assembler will be able to make all the superconductor parts and so forth.

    so everything but the medical parts,super conductor,gravity gen parts,thrusters modules.......metal grids, reactor parts.
    but it should make the plates,pipes,computer chips,motors,maybe lcd displays,solar cells and battery cells..
    so a new spawn can make the refinery, assembler, battery and solar panel.

    otherwise whats the point? it'd be like picking the escape pod only to find you can't do shit with it because the escape pod doesn't have enough parts to make anything useful other than a ramming suicide ship.
     
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  3. Harrekin

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    So they're "teasing" us with a smaller, gimped version of the assembler?

    The hype train is rolling in it's grave.
     
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  4. Spets

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    maybe... apart from limited basic component production, perhaps able to refine the basic ore like Iron, maybe nickel, and others, but very slowly and very inefficient?
     
  5. kcjunkbox

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    My understanding of functional blocks is that they can only have one function. Assembly or refining, but not both.

    My thought is not that it is an inferior version but that it allows for a more basic or minimal start. For example the existing assembler requires 80 computer chips, a lot of other basic parts and a lot of power to run it. My hope is that this new basic assembler requires fewer less difficult parts to make and uses a lot less power but as a trade off is slower and cannot make more complex components so if you crash your ship you can cobble one together out of spare parts and start over and not have to suicide.
     
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  6. Harrekin

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    Crash your ship going where and why?

    My issue is no new content; the game is a mile wide and a nanometer deep.

    A small assembler would be useful if you have ore, so a small refinery is probably next...

    It's a s*** show and it's driving me insane because the potential is there and they've the skill to pull it off.
     
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  7. kcjunkbox

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    I completely agree with you about new content and the game being shallow because it is. I haven't really played SE in probably 6 months because there is nothing left to do in the game. I got into subnautica because there is a lot of "life" and things to do in that game but now I'm bored of it too but for the opposite reason, it has no width as the game is literally on ly 4 km wide and there is no procedural generation so it is exactly the same every time. SE has lots of "space" but nothing in it and no variences from one place to another so it is just more of the same.
     
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  8. Harrekin

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    I played alot of Ark after I gave up SE; it's buggy as hell, crashes alot and needs a beefy computer but has so much content you can ignore all that.
     
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  9. KissSh0t

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    I wonder if it will be for small ship.
     
  10. kcjunkbox

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    The model they showed didn't look like it as someone above astutely pointed out because it has a control panel on it and small blocks don't usually have that. However, I wouldn't be apposed to it being available for small ships also. Would be nice to carry some ore and be able to make some spar parts as needed for a small ship.
     
  11. Cronos988

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    I am kinda against this whole idea of a "minimalistic start". What exactly does it achieve? How does it mix up the gameplay?

    It seems to me that this start only adds more tedium, as in more time spend drilling manually and refining before you can do anything interesting with it. Yes working for your creations is what creates a sense of achievement, but we had that already. SE is fundamentally about building cool ships. A minimalistic assembler seems to be going the other route, turning SE into more of an FPS survival game. But there is already tons of them around by now, and most already do the minimalistic survival part way better than SE ever will.

    SE needs to go bigger, not smaller. If you want to expand gameplay, give me a reason to build large or complex structures. Make a capital ship something more than just eye-candy. This is, once again, the wrong way to spend development resources. More than ever it seems to me that planets were a mistake.
     
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  12. kcjunkbox

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    The only reason to build a larger or more complex ship or structure is so you can hit the block limit or slow down your frame rate to a crawl or crash the game. SE needs depth and more going and living things and more systems. Although it is not the only solution, a minimal start does give you something else to do and more progression. However, yes SE needs more, for sure.
     
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  13. Syncaidius

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    They're teasing us with block progression. Whether that's a good thing is debatable. :p

    Personally, I like the idea it, but I know some people don't, which is also fine. Maybe we'll get something to actually survive against besides dogs, spiders and the same ol' drone carrier. Gameplay like Exploration Enhancement Mod, but Keen-style.

    I just hope they fix all of the game-breaking bugs before adding any more major features.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 12:29
  14. Harrekin

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    You can't fix "all of the bugs" and then add new features though, it just means more different bugs for a longer period of time.
     
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  15. Syncaidius

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    I know. That's why I said "game-breaking" bugs only. :)

    These kind of bugs need fixing before any new features:
     
  16. ObjectZero

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    Well kind of figured this topic would pop-up after the update.

    Not really sure if I'm for the new block or not yet, I'll have to see what it can do and what not. I'm not going to try and set it on fire or put it on a pedestal till then. But I do have questions. Like will it use less power then the current assembler, what can it make, can it be put on both small and large ships, is it faster or slower then the old assembler? All question I'm sure that will be covered once the block is out. I'm sure they're still working on it's balance in game...at least so I hope.
     
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  17. Cronos988

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    It doesn't need to be super large ships. It would be fine just having a use for any large block ship other than either a mobile base or a mining vessel. I agree that SE needs depth, a more living universe and more systems. I don't see how a minimal starts provides any of these things.

    Well many people demanded progression, it's just a question of how you do it. Just adding in more "tiers" is generally a bad idea unless it really changes the dynamics of the game.
     
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  18. Syncaidius

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    Agreed. I don't mind some tiering, but so long as they don't go crazy with it, like adding 5+ tiers of assembler. The important part is that the 'higher' tier blocks don't make the lower/smaller ones completely obsolete. They need to have at least one good reason to keep using each of them.

    I'd much prefer they add new types of blocks (i.e. wind gens), then have us require new ores/components to assemble them. Another way to add progression without crazy block-tiering would to add some kind of metal/ore mixing which requires a smelter that takes two or more metals and turns them into a new compound from which we make new components, but that's for another thread.

    From the teaser, we already know the basic assembler has one good tradeoff: It's size. Its a 1x1x1 block. That IMO is a great start. Of course, we knowing nothing else about their plans for it yet, so the best we can do is speculate. :p
     
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  19. Timotei~

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    My knowledge in Keen's behaviors make me believe they will not go the tier route and instead will make it so the basic assembler will be for the current assembler the same as the arc furnace is for the refinery. It will probably be cheaper, faster, more energy efficient and smaller than the current assembler but will also be limited to some basic resources like steel plates, tubes etc. The current assembler will probably stay the same as always.
    The reason I think that are:
    - I know Keen will not want to break the current survival ships so the current assembler will not change.
    - But They want the new assembles to be useful on early game, so they'll make it cheap.
    - At the same time, they'll want people to keep using it even on late game. That's why it must not become a useless block, so they make it faster and more energy efficient.
    - Still, some advanced components must stay exclusive to the current assembler to keep it useful. Otherwise, people would just switch to the new assembler and forget the old one.

    Finally, seeing Keen adding a new variant of an existing block now make me somehow think we should expect to see other new variants of other existing blocks in the near future. ( welders, grinders, drills, etc. ) All with advantages and drawbacks.
    I just wanted to put my speculations here. I still expect Keen to surprise me somehow.
     
  20. Forcedminer

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    I'm excited to see what happens with the wheels that were teased a bit back.

    the basic assembler is exciting...damn exciting...
    hope it has a more high pitched exciting sound due to its smaller size.
    something like this.





    but i've been using "Cliffie's Tiny Refinery" for alot of starts now so im using to have a small assembler to start off with. :p
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=325489727&searchtext=

    it uses the small reactor model..its bright pink....it does things horribly slowly but you can raise a great empire from its small size.
     
  21. Commander Rotal

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    The last few teasers are really grinding my gears and i don't want a repeat of Station Voxel Support, so i'll attempt to keep it clean (and short, and one-time). Better for everyone's nerves, including my own, but i feel like i need to vent a little on that one...

    Without knowing anything about the Basic Assembler it's hard to tell what it's there for, but the "Assembler" in it's name is triggering my "Are you kidding"-reflexes. Really? There's so many blocks that could actually need a tiered system (or a complete revamp; i don't want to start the argument with regards to Thrusters again) because they're as-are functionally useless for big ships, and the one they're wasting programmers and modellers on is the Assembler (and another form of Power Generation, assumedly, with the Wind Chimes, when one single Uranium Deposit will keep you going forever)?
    If the Assembler isn't working for the intended Survival-balance, CHANGE the existing block or the existing system, don't take time and money away from
    -) stuff we don't already have (interior blocks, FemGineer, or, if you want to keep the "What the game needs"-category functional, stuff like Half Blocks or the missing Ramp Connections),
    -) blocks that could actually do with another version (Capital Thrusters, Capital Gyroscopes),
    -) or entire block groups that are flatout missing (like Small Ship Just About Everything).

    I'm not just pissed in this regard because it takes resources (which i presume to be scarce at this point, seeing how we are in Beta and stuff like Rexxar's superb MP-Menu or the STILL unrefined HUD counting as "major" updates) away from more important (and less redundant) features but also because i really don't see the point in the Basic Assembler. (I have my own, rather similar thoughts about the Wind Chimes which i may or may not get into in another thread.)

    I would assume (and i HAVE to assume things, because @Xocliw's teasers don't give me much to work with) that the Base Ass is meant to make it easier to start Survival with less resources. Why? Because people seem to want that for Survival, they've been talking about that in the past and the Base Ass, the Wind Chimes and the Parachutes all go in the direction of having fewer, less valuable materials (going purely by guesswork here but i'd recon you won't need as many mats for a 1x1 Block that you can't upgrade, you only need one (?) parachute instead of several Thrusters per Lander, etc). Basically: grinding down the Atmospheric Lander gives you an iso-ton of materials and they presumably want to cut down on that. So far so good.

    Here's why i don't see the point: i'm generally all for more options but if Keen's idea of giving players less to start with is another, shittier block they're not attacking the problem from the correct side, because you still end up with a lot of blocks. You still need an Assembler, so they still give you an Assembler, it's just a shittier one. (And i don't see any evidence of a progression system either as Assemblers are really just one or two scouting trips away, unless they implement a research-system.) So you might get less resources out of it but the basic problem is still the same. And unless they fundamentally change the way Survival-resource work (or shove an Assembler and a Refinery up Treebeard's ass) that will never change.

    Honestly, i see two ways to fix that problem*, and neither are likely to be popular but taking resources away for a fix that won't fix the underlaying problem is very much unpopular with me.

    1.) Get rid of Ores, or implement a higher-tier Drill that automatically (but inefficiently) refines Ore into Ingots.
    Why? As long as Ores exists, they're going to need refining, and as long as you don't give the hand-tools the ability to do so, you WILL need blocks. And Keen WILL have to give you these blocks in a Survival-world as you can't build without them.

    2.) Get rid of Materials, or implement a higher-tier Welder that automatically assembles the materials needed from Ore/Ingotes in your inventory.
    Why? As long as Materials exist, they're going to need assembling, and as long as you don't give the hand-tools (or the backpack, i guess) the ability to do so, you WILL need an Assembler - or Basic Assembler. Which Keen WILL have to give you these blocks in a Survival-world as you can't build without them.

    Personally i'd be more in favor of giving the player the improved (but inefficient) hand-tools, on the ground that it would need less retooling of the entire game's system (a game design-hack, so to speak) but my point is: doing what they are (apparently) doing right now is going to do nothing but waste time and resources that are needed elsewhere.


    * Edit: provided the existing Assembler stays the way it is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 19:46
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  22. Cronos988

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    Exactly. It's adding extra hoops to the gameplay, but the gameplay doesn't change at all. It's like the illusion of progression, padding of the gametime.
     
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  23. FlakMagnet

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    Personally...and I play survival almost exclusively.... I don't see any real point in a smaller assembler.

    In game, I can only guess what it will be, but my guess is this:

    1) It will be cheaper to build and require a smaller range of materials to build
    2) It will produce a limited range of items

    Now...as Rotal has said already, there are areas where tiers of blocks will give expansion options and somewhere to go. Where I have NEVER had a real issue is with the start. Sure, there are people who want an easier start, built in assembler and refinery capacity in the suit so you can start from nothing except the basic tools...well...yeah. I see where you are coming from....but I do not agree that this is the main thing the game is missing.

    STARTING the game is not an issue. There are many and varied scenarios that can be devised with the existing blocks and tools all of which work fine with the blocks we have. Wind turbines will make power even easier. The massive area where the game is lacking is in the later stages. Development, expansion and complexity in the later game is largely absent and that is a MUCH bigger issue for me. Once you have a basic economy in place on a survival world all you can do is make more of the same.

    I am making stuff to make the start MORE challenging, this looks aimed at making it easier.
     
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  24. Ronin1973

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    The basic assembler is 1x1x1. If the game isn't changed to accommodate it, then here are my assumptions:
    1. The "basic" assembler cannot have upgrade modules attached to it.
    2. Being half the size it will probably only work 1/2 as fast and probably be LESS energy efficient.
    3. It'll be cheaper to build than the standard assembler.

    It could be that Keen is in the beginning phase of a tier system or progression system. There's already a thread dedicated to progression system discussions. But I think they'll make blocks with similar capabilities to what we're accustom to. Perhaps we'll see a couple of tiers of new components for more advanced building. Creating blocks that have different attributes (not just better) like advanced ion thrusters, gyros, would be good. But balance them in a way that doesn't make the current blocks obsolete. I'd like to see the addition of a new ore like aluminum that takes a long time to smelt as well as a long time to weld. Ultra-light armor blocks (that are also very weak) out of aluminum rather than steel would help in the creation of utility vehicles and more mass efficient ship interiors... especially with planetary gravity.

    Having light-weight versions of specific blocks (and balancing of them) would be helpful too and create more options for players.
     
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  25. Spets

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    The basic assembler will reduce the landing pod size a lot, probably made to fit in the parachute pod. I think they should also have to make a smaller Med Bay, perhaps not able as a respawn point but only to heal. So, the start will also have the risk of dying and lose everything, or, not spawning right there in your ship, or base.
    With the actual Big Blue one you can build a 100% functional base in minutes, well, 30-45 minutes (check my video :p ) I agree this was not made for a progression feel but just to reduce the starting ship, and make the beginning a little slower or hard(?)

    but what is a progression in survival anyways?
    Minecraft, you start with wood and end with diamonds, and then there is nothing more to upgrade.
    Astroneer, after you research all the stuff, you have nothing else to do in the game. I don't even want to go explore to find this researches anymore. (still very EA...)
    Planet Nomads (also very early alpha anyways but...) once I have all my tool and suit upgrades, and build unlocked, the initial fun is gone.

    I build a base in survival (starting with the Blue Landing Pod) in 45 minutes or less, I believe you can establish a 100% functional base in less time... and imo the beginning is one of the fun parts in survival. And there is a kind of progression feeling, not talking about researching, or upgrading tools, but to complete this basic task to establish your firs base. So, progression can be missions, objectives you want to reach. But, once you finish that... well... if you don't have you own goals, there is nothing really that makes you go, the game doesn't tell you or point to do anything. Well, is a sandbox, but you can see why some people see this game as empty. Lack of creativity, no self inspiration, no own goals, equal nothing to do, lost, boring :/

     
  26. Speshal_Snowman

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    I hope this means that we can start in a escape pod with a parachute and basic assembler, and have things to work towards :)
     
  27. Commander Rotal

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    And a Basic Refinery, unless the Assembler does that too. Again: as long as Ore exists you'll need something to turn it into Ingots.
     
  28. Ronin1973

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    In the sbs files, there already exists blocks (commented out) for specialized refinement and assembly. They use the refinery block as a basic model. There were also some experimental blocks for a light rail system. Certainly smaller versions of all production blocks would be a good thing to lighten the size of respawn ships. Needing a huge refinery to start out means having a respawn ship large enough to carry it. I wouldn't mind 1x1x1 production blocks that specialize in only one ore or one component (in addition to what we have).
     
  29. Spets

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    I think you can start with an Arc furnace instead of the huge refinery? I wonder... never tried, have to check later, or maybe somebody can confirm or denied

    Edit: quick wiki check, the Arc Furnace only refine Iron, Nickel, Cobalt and Scrap Metal. To build a Refinery you will also need Computer Components that will use Silicon.
     
  30. PLPM

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    An hypotethical 1x1 block to refine silicon, an arc furnance and a 1x1 assembler along with a wind turbine would be the minimum required in theory... I think.

    But why the hell would I want that? that just adds an hour of grinding, then I find some uranium, some other ores and game over...
    I want something like minecraft where I could be weeks playing on the same world and not get bored, I could still find new things that kept me engaged [Goddamn mineshafts].
    --- Automerge ---

    *Edit*
    The arc furnance should also smelt gold and the hypothetical aluminium.