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Blog news: Freezing Windows XP, DX9, and 32-bit builds. Also, Source Code gets updated

Discussion in 'General' started by Mix-martes86, Feb 26, 2016.

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  1. TheDuke540 Apprentice Engineer

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    201
    Damn, if I could agree more than once, you sir, would have... a lot of agrees.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  2. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    Could it be? After all these years.. I'm finally getting space beer?

    Saddle up boys, where we're going, we dont need depreciated hardware!
     
    • Funny Funny x 8
  3. Brix Trainee Engineer

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    I was waiting on this. I can't believe to took a day. I hope you know i mean physics based rendering though lol.

    I mean it really is the truth. I make more than a lot of people, but i also grew up on welfare 30 years ago. I was lucky a bough to have small jobs helping neighbors and bought my first computer, a tandy 1000. It was not something i needed but something i wanted so i worked on it. My gaming setup right now isn't even that expensive but i enjoy it for what it is and it is cheap. Older i5, 960 2gb and 16gb ram. That's what it takes to run se at some very reliable frames and good simspeed. Under the cost of a Xbox you can build my pc, my other rig not so much but it doesn't play se that well and i blame that on manufacturers cramming more cores instead of power per core, a topic for another time, but still the most expensive part of my setup is my 65" 4k tv i use as a monitor. That was spendy, but worth every single penny.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    The hardware argument is null. If your system cannot run DX11 it is by definition obsolete. No one is obligated to support obsolete hardware. Most hardware companies refuse support for obsolete hardware. If your system can't run DX11 that is your fault. XP and 32 bit support is slowing down development. Full stop, no argument. Moving away from obsolete systems is the only logical step. It was insanity that they kept XP support this long.

    Besides that, 32 bit programs are limited to 2GB of RAM. It's almost impossible to do anything with that little memory. The game starts dropping textures and even entire grids.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  5. Captaindan Apprentice Engineer

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    172
    Easily ran DX11? Come on.. ;) I had a HD5850 and running DX11 easily was'nt really the truth for me, but DX9 runs with good a framerate.
    But you're right the HD5870 was a good strong card. I loved my HD5850 too and used her for 5 years. The first time I used DX11 with that card was in Space Engineers but it wasn't the best experience. :D
    Imagine the HD5000 series was the first Radeon with DX11 support, the first card which supports new technology has mostly a horrible implementation of that.


    What is your Framerate on Planets and in Space(DX9 and DX11)?
    Im just interested, because my HD5850 got in DX11 -10 Frames in Average. I don't use my old card any longer because I bought a complete new PC from scratch, but I'm still interested how you experience is/was.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  6. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    Just to quote what I said in another thread.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    AMD no longer support HD5000 series right?

    I think I remember something about all pre-GCN based AMD video cards no longer being supported with new drivers... or am I mistaken?

    Also, you cannot play planets using DirectX 9, so there is no way to compare how planets performed between 11 and 9
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    1,368
    While I feel for the few Dx9 users still floating around, I think this is just something that had to happen. We are talking about a tech that is many, many years out of date now with DX11 second hand cards available for a few [insert currency here]s. I think I've given away three generations of DX11 machines in the time since it was 'new'. To their credit they have also gone to the trouble of releasing a DX9 stream rather than just dropping support. If I'm reading this right, the game will essentially becomes 'frozen' for them at this point in time?

    From a modders perspective, while DX11 is initially more complex, once you gain the knowledge necessary it actually becomes so. much. easier. Especially with specialist software like substance designer etc, making correctly reactive textures is a breeze. The ability to drop Dx9 would also lead to a 40% reduction in average file size as we can drop 2 of the usually 5 files per texture. The only problem of course is that compared to other 3D viewers and engines, the Dx11 textures often just don't come out right in SE, but that's something that was listed on Marek's fix list a few weeks ago anyway.

    All this being said, a product was sold with the requirements listing Dx9 - I would fully support a refund process for those who have now been dropped.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    Before planets came out it was getting about 40-50. In my current setup (which was listed earlier in the example) I actually had my 970 break after 2 weeks of having it, so I had to stick the old 5870 in. Games like Planetside 2, SWTOR, and SE ran pretty much the same as they did with the 970. Slower, but not noticeably so. Its a beast of an old card. Second only to the 6870, but not by much.. at least for that generation of GPUs.

    If people can't afford a recent modern card, one of those two isn't a bad choice. Amazon has them for $140, though used.

    SE also runs surprisingly well and even better recently on my Laptop's Nvidia GT 555M. So SE will run on some pretty outdated hardware and well.. just not.. SUPER outdated stuff. Like I'm surprised steam even runs on some of these machines.. I mean Windows XP, really? Digital herpes hasn't overtaken that unsupported OS yet?
     
  10. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487062

    45$...and you can go from a DX9 card to a DX11 card. For less then 2 weeks worth of coffee from starbucks, you could upgrade your computer, and that is a passive cooled card that takes very little power to run (hence compatible with any stock PSU).
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487063
    50$ version with 2GB of ram instead of 1gb.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487114 Referb
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487025 New

    Here is the 750 TI, the bargain bin card, for 120$ and 130$, so skip a months worth of coffee, or car-pool to work for a few weeks to save a tank of gas.
    The referb one is the Superclocked version, but being referbed, its use at your own risk, or for 10 bucks more you could get a new one (just not SC).

    If you have a CPU that is at least an core 2 duo or an early i5/i7 but have an older card, then these are CHEAP upgrades that will run DX11 games with very little, to no issue.


    I have stated it before, my old system was a first gen i7 and currently has a 770 GTX in it, runs anything my brother plays, including the newer games like Shadow of Mordor.



    Just was putting out options for the whiney kids out there that are gonna be all mad about "Hurr dhurr guys, I can't run DX11 because [insert stupid reason here]"

    Oh and all it took was about 10 min of looking at newegg to find those cards, so there literally is NO excuse for people to have not upgraded there computers by now, other then pure stupidity.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

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    417
    750ti is a beast of a card for the price. And it runs nice and cool and requires no external power pins(pcie powered). While I was away at college, my Dad grabbed the SC on sale off of Newegg, popped it in the old amd clunker prebuilt from 2009 that had no dedicated card, and now my brother plays Fallout 4 on it.
     
  12. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    Like I said in my post, old computer has a 770 GTX in it (so a little more oomph then the 750) and he has no issues.

    I cannot tell you how much hate I have for developers that cave to the loud idiots that refuse to upgrade there system, yet still want to play the newest games. This is why I am very much applauding KSH for this decision, much like how I have been very happy with Star Cit doing the same thing and NOT caving in, and making one hellva beautiful game (of what we can play so far).
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    The thing you have to remember is that those people haven't been "dropped"...

    The game will infact remain in their Steam library (waiting for them) should they ever decide upgrade their potato.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  14. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    Just gonna chime in and say I wholeheartedly agree with the decision by Keen to freeze developmenton 32-bit, XP and DX9. I don't think anyone restricted to that hardware has anyone right to complain, in all honesty. If you have money to burn on games, you can put that money away to buy a better system/components.

    I'm really excited by their decision, as hopefully it will mean the game can do more at launch than we can expect right now. If KSH is focusing solely on more (even if marginally more) advanced hardware, we will hopefully see the game do more complex things, and more importantly do them fluidly. After 6 hours of building on a planet, a friend and I are experiencing sim speed loss from expanding our station too far. This is on an i7 5930K @4.5ghz, 980ti, and 64GB of DDR4 @2400mhz. The game also loads from and saves to an Intel 750 series NVMe 400 GB drive. Disappointingly, at 2k, I only get 30 frames on a planet with max settings. I am hopeful that the performance increases will continue to keep coming and we will see larger builds become feasible in the near future.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  15. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    ^This. It's unreasonable to expect a software developer to use something that no longer has support from the company that made it, when a later version exists that receives support. Seems like common sense to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  16. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    Just as a little derail its crazy how many companies still use XP systems. All our airline systems run off XP computers! I still can't believe this considering it is not even supported anymore. Makes you wonder eh. Dam you Delta and your "Deltamatic" dam you all to hell!!!! :mad::eek:ops:
     
  17. TheDuke540 Apprentice Engineer

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    201
    Holy shit! How big is this station??!! I get 40-50fps on planets - with far inferior hardware @2k res. That's with 40km draw distance and medium vegetation.
     
  18. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    Knowing some people out there he's either landed Rotal's station on the planet or built a Dyson Sphere...
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
  19. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    "Everyone" is a pretty bold statement, I got shouted before making "estimates".

    Agreed, still you can't blame someone for not having a good gaming PC, because she/he doesn't have money... again the USA and EU are not the only places you have people playing SE, actually here on this forum I've seen more Mexicans and fellow brazillians than I was expecting. Here and I'm sure in a lot of "third world" economies you can find a LOT of people legitimately with no money to buy better hardware.

    Every time I bring up this point, people sat they don't care, it's not their problem, neither KSH should care about it... well, right or wrong, the statements are elitists.

    Well, that's why KSH should have improved planets further before calling "all-in" and discharging DX9 completely.

    Space Engineers is a game in Early Acess, a unfinished product that asks you to buy a license to play the game before it's final state... Everquest is the opposite, it was a finished product(with bug we all know) that kept evolving.

    You know the biggest problem? The die-hard fans... take a look at Rust... Facepunch did a mess giving up on Legacy, they switched to a newer version of Unity to DX11 only and people complained? Sure... but they had so many die-hard fans that kept their BS excuses going. Only now, like another year before they started to work seriously(not sure about this part) on the new version it's playable. Garry said they got popular again... my opinion people are playing the game again because it got playable for them again, that's why.

    That's why the gaming industry gets worse every year and that's why those companies and a lot of Early Access games are allowed to keep their BS... we allow them. That's also why even if I'm not criticizing KSH on this part specifically I'm sure this post will get a lot of reports to moderation and lots of "disagree" remarks.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    I understand your POV, but please read my post above.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Again, the people with older computers will get a feature frozen version of the game until they decide to buy a new PC and when they do they'll have the full up to date version waiting for them.

    That's actually quite a generous move by KSH considering they could've just dropped support altogether.

    Gaming is a privilege, not a right and if you've a potato you're naturally gonna get left behind, look Moores law, this game is now in its third year of development.

    Plus DX9 generally speaking is a relic that needs to be declared obsolete and unsupported.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  22. Samsonguy920 Apprentice Engineer

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    245
    For those crying out for refunds, another thing should be considered. If you get a refund, you are losing access to the game. You are in effect returning the game due to dissatisfaction with the product. That's it, no more. Now here's the kicker: Marek stated in his blog that the game will shortly be declared out of Early Access. That's going to mean a price increase, no doubt about it.
    So you should really ask yourself if you really want to give up the game because you can't run it now? And then find yourself able to later in a few months and then you have to pay more.

    I am going to be frank here. Reacting to this and demanding a refund because you don't have something now to run 64 Bit Space Engineers is a dumbass response. Not to mention exhibiting a strong sense of self-entitlement. Maybe things are more expensive for you where you are. That happens. If everything was equally priced around the world we would have a big step towards being a happier world. But that is the way things are now. It is something you should have considered before buying a game that was still in such early development. Consider this a part of growing pains, and what comes with that cheaper price in buying Space Engineers in early access as opposed to when it is a finished product.

    I have a laundry list of things I am dissatisfied with the game about, and this upgrade to 64bit is not among them. In fact that is likely to help shorten my list. But at this point after being a part of the game development for this long, I'd rather eat the cash I put down for it and just discourage others from buying into it for the time being than just give up on it altogether and end up paying more when things do improve.
    Space Engineers is a game with a ton of fun potential to it, and it is still in development. I will keep an eye on its progression, share input when I can, but I will not go into the community forum and constantly harp about features that are still being worked on and likely to be worked on for months more as that is not constructive to the development and only turns the forum into a place of negativity to the point that nobody will come here to contribute anything constructive or positive. If you are dissatisfied with how Space Engineers is going and feel this move is totally against you and you want your money back, then go. You have made it clear that you have no interest in the game anymore and have nothing else to contribute. If you change your mind, feel free to come back. Perhaps a break is all you really need. But if you have nothing new to add other than to complain about pistons or the netcode which Keen has stated more than once is being worked on, then there is nothing to be said. I am sick and tired of those in this community who find nothing original to say here or even constructive.
    You bought Space Engineers as an early access game. There were no secrets kept from you when you bought it. Things were likely to be rough going in and some things would likely take time to get addressed. That comes with the discount. If you still feel you were entitled to a more solid experience akin to a AAA release game, then take your refund and go. There are those of us who would like to see the game reach its potential and it would be easier to make it so without the static noise.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  23. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    This game was never going to be "final release" for 32bit.

    People that think/thought that are just completely insane.

    XP?

    You've got to he kidding me.

    DX9?

    Released in 2003...

    2003!!!

    Games looked like this in 2003:

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  24. DuneD Junior Engineer

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    948
    Its not like the game can run in a computer that cant run DX11 anyways, the game cant run in 4-5 year old hardware ( which supports dx11 and 64 bit ), so who the hell expects to run this game in a machine that doesn't supports DX9 and still uses a 32 bit system. Ditching 32 bit and DX9 will probably increase performance for those who don't use those systems anymore, its a really good thing, and again, FIND ME SOMEONE, who can run the game in XP with a 32 bit CPU and a card that can't run DX11, I dare you to find someone and I dont care about statistics, I want a real person, just one, who can show me he can run the game in that system.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

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    671
    I bought Oblivion at release day even knowing I had a super potatoe for computer.
    I managed to pull 10fps when finishing tutorial and exit the sewers. Going to the city it was 5fps. I was happy to enjoy the nice slideshow of pretty scenery.

    Would it count as "running"?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    No, that's a maneuver to keep the argument on heir side. If they didn't offered access to the "freeze" version, they would in fact be breaking the terms of services of Early Access. That's why Facepunch still to this day allow people to play Rust Legacy.

    Gaming is a hobby, for some, a profession. Anything you say about privilege is elitism... "I have a $5,000 rig, I'm better than you" kind of argument.

    Moore's Law is about how much computing power will increase over time, that is only an element of the market. How much that computing power costs in your country it's the real variable we have to consider.

    Obsolete, yeah... relic? There a shit ton of games out there still using DX9... should they still be using it? Maybe not. We still have the economic factor everyone here is ignoring.

    At the current pace of improvement, this game needs at least 6 months to be called Beta.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Brix Trainee Engineer

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    45
    My old 4-5 year old rig runs it better than my new rig......
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    I think the vegetation is what is murdering my frames in that world. I have literally every setting in the game maxed out, including the world generator settings. It doesn't really bother me, I played SE on older hardware before building my current machine and I was down to like 4 FPS when building a capital ship in that world.

    Normally you would be correct, as I tend to go pretty overboard in SE :D But this world is for the most part very practical. I think our station isn't over 3000 blocks yet
     
  29. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    Sorry for the double post, I should have read further before I posted my response.

    I strongly disagree with this, and I think @Harrekin was correct. Gaming may be a hobby, that's true, but it's a hobby that requires you to reinvest in it from time to time to stay up to date. That's just how it works and if you can't put away $5 (or whatever amount/currency) a week and save for a better system, then obviously you shouldn't be prioritizing gaming at the moment and you have no right to get upset with developers for making a game that won't run on potatoes and dreams. It is certainly not an "elitist" statement, that's just the truth.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Potatoes and dreams...

    Beautiful.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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