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Conditional Existence

Discussion in 'General' started by inventor200, Dec 11, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. inventor200 Apprentice Engineer

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    Hey, so this may sound like a suggestion, but it isn't. This is just an idea to toss around that I'm not asking to be in the game.

    So, I was just thinking about ways to keep away griefers, and got to thinking:

    What if when you logged off, any grid you own in the game that is not shared with anybody else disappears, with the space it once inhabited reserved for its reappearance once you log back in? So if you log off, someone else can't build in the volume your creations inhabited.

    This renders your works essentially untouchable and unfindable as long as you're not in the server.

    Now, I realize this may be full of holes, which is why I'm posting it as an idea to discuss, rather than an actual suggestion. So... who likes it, who doesn't, and who wants to find holes and maybe plug them? This is just an idea to toss around.

    The first hole I found: What if someone parks their ship in your reserved volume and you log back in? Whoops, lol...

    Have a great day~

    EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: There was a thread a while back for shields, where the point was to simply conceptualize the idea and discuss flaws and solutions. That's kinda what this thread is; this concept won't be added into the game, but I think it's fun to toss ideas back and forth! Just a thinking exercise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
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  2. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

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    Griefers will always find a way to grief.
    This "fix" would create a second problem: desert worlds, as in, devoid of any sign of activity. I like the idea of joining a place where there's more stuff than what I own, otherwise, I could simply join a private server and that'd be the end of it.
    It would also screw up gameplay for groups, as in, you play with your buddies for a while and build a joint venture to which you're not the owner despite your participation, then they must leave to attend their day but you want to keep playing, and then their all stuff disappears, including the thing you built together. Bummer.
     
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  3. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    So if your base is getting raided, you can just quit and your base would be safe?
     
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  4. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    I've been playing around with an idea for an anti-grief plugin for SESE. With anti-grief turned on for a grid, any non-allies approaching your grid will be stopped and given a warning message. If they keep going, their ship gets deleted and they die. If they try it again, they get kicked and/or banned. There's more to it, but that's the basic gist of the thing.

    Obviously there's huge potential for abuse; I'd have to do a lot to keep it fair, but it shouldn't be hard.
     
  5. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    You could put a timer on it; protection gets enabled 5 or 10 minutes after you log out. Or maybe disable it when there are other players in range of the grid.
     
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  6. Kielm Junior Engineer

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    Hmmm!

    Safe zones are an interesting idea, but they come with their own problems. Known safe zones can be camped. So can spawn points.

    Rexxar's proposed anti-grief plugin is very similar to existing minecraft plugins - get too close to "claimed" land and it reverses your facing direction and warps you out. It's fairly grief-proof, and I think a similar concept would work equally well in SE. Clearly it would also have to account for floating objects and projectiles as well (stone ore cannon, anyone?).
     
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  7. AlchemicalAgent Apprentice Engineer

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  8. inventor200 Apprentice Engineer

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    These are actually really good holes and solutions so far. :3

    @AlchemicalAgent I'll have to look into that!

    For group project: team-built grids will only disappear if all members have logged off.

    @rexxar I like your delay idea!

    @Ulfsark I didn't think of this from a combat perspective; would rexxar's delay help a bit?
     
  9. Kielm Junior Engineer

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    The key questions here are:
    1. How is griefing defined? On PvP servers, griefing and PvP are fundamentally the same :\
    2. Can this definition be expressed in code?
    One man's griefing is another man's PvP.

    You can rule out PvP on defined objects and areas (simplest), or when players are offline (simpler), or under certain conditions (complex).

    How is code supposed to tell the difference between a minefield for example, being used in PvP, versus someone that just joined the server ramming their starter ship into someone?

    Defined objects and areas is the simplest, but as already mentioned, on some PvP servers attacking grids owned by players that are offline is part of the game, and could detract from the experience (though some would prefer the alternative).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. inventor200 Apprentice Engineer

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    :woot: Conditional Existence wouldn't even occur on PvP servers, lol. On those servers, you are giving everyone full right to wreck your stuff.

    On peaceful servers, it's just annoying. I literally don't see the point in joining a server because I'll have to start all over again when I join back up. I'd rather just stick with singleplayer.
    But again, this thread is a thinking exercise; not a solution to my uneasiness for multiplayer. Otherwise I would have put it in suggestions...
     
  11. PolarWolf Apprentice Engineer

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    Perhaps when people log off, Their stuff, including them, can be relocated to an arbitrary location when they reconnect. As long as GPS is used, i see little problem in this
     
  12. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    Very good points. When I came up with the idea for my anti-grief plugin, I really only had admin bases and communal safe zones in mind. It would be tricky to make it work well in a PvP situation.

    How about this, we enable safe zone on a player's station if a) they are offline b) the station is below a set number of blocks and c) the number of ships parked inside the safe zone is below a certain number or block count. I think smashing 30 block noob stations falls under the category of griefing, so these rules should protect new players until they have a good foothold and can defend themselves.

    Griefing is also ramming a respawn ship into someone's big station. That shouldn't be too hard to block, either. We can just watch for a respawn ship nearing a non-ally grid above a certain speed. We then could just delete the ship and kick the player, or reduce their max speed to 10m/s or something (if setting max speed is possible, that is).
     
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  13. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    Well, sometimes players set up their bases in strategic locations. Either there's valuable ores nearby, or the landscape is particularly defensible. Or maybe that spot is just pretty.
     
  14. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    Yeah that would solve the problem, that's what happens in EVE. It takes about 10 minutes for your ship to warp out into no-man's land.
     
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  15. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    Question: What if someone else decides to build there while you are logged off?
     
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  16. fionnhunter Trainee Engineer

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    As stated in OP's original post, you would not be able to build in the space reserved for someone else's base if they are logged out and it isn't currently there.
    Otherwise I think this is a pretty good idea, and on the plus side the game would only have to render the things that are visible, might cut down on lag slightly for very populated servers (although this should be fixed with the new localized (location/visible dependent) netcode).
     
  17. Kielm Junior Engineer

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    Yeah, I think this would work great as a anti-grief on non-PvP servers.

    Perhaps the first iteration should be a simple "stop ship, teleport back 30m or so when approaching safe zone" to see how it works out.

    Nothing more complicated required imho.
    You could time-limit the protection, or block-limit as mentioned. Time works quite well (See ARK: Survival Evolved PvE protection).

    Small point: station protection. Is the asteroid protected as well? Can I spam small stations to claim asteroids? I'm creating a headache I know, sorry.
     
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  18. Mobiyus Apprentice Engineer

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    PVP=both parties consent to combat
    Griefing=One of the parties does not consent to combat (It is indeed pvp for one of em tho but not both)
     
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  19. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    No, it's very, very useful to have someone poke holes in an idea.

    Just off the top of my head, I'd say players would be limited to one protection zone. You could decide which gets protected by block count, or maybe they put "protected" in their beacon name or something. The idea (or my idea, anyway) is to protect new players until they can get established and defend themselves; you don't need to be building multiple stations if you're at that point.
     
  20. StormField Apprentice Engineer

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    My vote is a typical one: hide and camo your stuff. First hour on the server? Fly for an hour, set up camp.

    More so with jump drives now, you can literally hide forever.
     
  21. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    It's more like 45 seconds unless some thing interacts with it. If it were 10 minutes we would never have ships upon logging back in. Even if you warped to a safe point I could find you in under 2 minutes with probes.
     
  22. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    lol this will completely destroy the sandbox essence, the main aspect that make SE a real sandbox is that all of the modifications and buildings in the world are persistent
     
  23. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I would like to hear how tailoring a game to your specific play style is considered destroying sandbox.
     
  24. Spets Master Engineer

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    the question is, why do people play in pub servers? masochism?
     
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  25. noxLP Junior Engineer

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    The problem with this is that people will for sure destroy voxels around your station, it would be better to just make the station and the voxels around it invulnerable, so you can see them but can not touch them, which i don't even know if can be done, to be honest, and will transform any asteroid with a station in an exclusive property of the station owner...
     
  26. Reflexus Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree with @Jas This would get rid of the sandbox element. I understand that hiding, camos, decoys and all other cloack and dagger stuff might seem difficult to pull off, but I assure you, it's really fun when it does.

    For example: Me and 2 of my friends decided to play ARK on a dedicated PVP server as a special operatsions squad, meaning that we intend to raid everyone with unexpected attacks. We did pretty well, we raided several bases with half of those having online owners and there actually were small scale battles. It would seem that we had a suicidal mind when only 3 guys went against half of the world. However our base was hidden in a forest, it was just 1 building painted green, it was surrounded by trees in all sides and was placed in an area that is difficult to access. It took 2 weeks for our opponents to find us :D And to be honest it took us over half an hour to find it after we had finished it and returned from a trip to the river :D One of the best 2 weeks of my gaming life :D
     
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  27. M1stery Apprentice Engineer

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    I would head for the EVE Online solution as stated above... a base would have a shield, but to keep that shield online you would have to log on at least every 2 days and refill it with a lot of resources, that way if you abandoned a station it wouldn't stay protected for long and anyone could then attack it, also a protected base should not mean its invulnerable to an attack, just that a solo griefer cant conquer it alone, he would need a whole group with lots of fire power to defeat the shield, this + a possible warning by email that your base is under attack would give you the time to log back on and defend it.... that being sayed I think a protected station like that should cost you a lot of resources when its online.

    Edit: about the voxels underneath, since the shield is spherical and the size would depend on the cost of the shield you should not be worried about ppl mining underneath.
     
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  28. Reflexus Apprentice Engineer

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    btw I got an idea about how to wreck people in pvp while you are offline.

    Park your ship in a place that would usually be the place of a random encounter. Turn off all thrusters, lights, turrets and anything else that would leave an impression that the ship is powered. Place sensors outside or inside the ship that detect hostiles and when they find hostiles or a module is damaged and detected by the programmable block, then activate all thrusters and turrets and most likely the raider who hoped for an easy prey is chewed up with his ship. The only weakpoint in this plan is when the raider has his ship outside the 800m turret range.

    What do you think about this idea? would it work?
     
  29. Barfbag Trainee Engineer

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    Why this wont work:
    Let's say someone builds a base, logs off and someone comes over and builds a base in the exact same spot.
    What happens when that last person logs back on while the other person is on?
    Kaboom?
     
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  30. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    I don't think the way forward is to make the grids dissapear, that raises all sorts of problems with accidental damage and what to do with asteroid bases. Making the ship/station, plus any connected asteroids invunerable while the owner is logged off would be better in my opinion. Make these ships invalid targets for turrets to prevent ammo waste, and have them shut down weapon systems while invunerable too.

    On a non pvp server you would still want to be able to do pve, including pirates and cargo ships. Players ships should obviosly not have invunerability to pirate ships weapons, and should behave normally when engaging them. Ideally players would be unable to damage each other. However, this raises a number of issues too.
    1: How to detect what ship fired a bullet or missile? I'm not sure space engineers even tracks this at all, and it would be neccecery to tell the difference between a players missile which would be not allowed to damage a players ship or a cargo ship missile, which should be allowed to do damage.
    2: How to determine the owner of a ship, which would need to be extended to lumps of armor blocks, respawn ships and thrown pirate ships to prevent issues with ramming. The ownership mechanic is not quite enough here, as you can change it at will. Players should not be able to send a raiding drone to anothers station by simply getting the coords and changing the ownership to Space Pirates. That would be really broken, and the ship should still be owned by the player.
    3 Consensual pvp would ideally be allowed. For fighter battles you could allow grids to damage each other if (and only if) both are owned by the same faction/player. So two players could agree to have a dogfight and join a faction for that purpose. Allowing grids to damage grids in the same faction would also allow for players being idiots and breaking thier own stuff, which should be allowed.

    These ideas are for a non pvp server, probably don't apply to a pvp server.
     
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