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Disagreements, Arguments and Civility

Discussion in 'General' started by RayvenQ, Sep 18, 2015.

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  1. RayvenQ Moderator

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    Due to a few instances of late, I've took it upon myself to remind everyone of the standard of behaviour on this forum.

    We're all aware that people can and will have arguments, disagreements and alternate points of view, whether it be suggesting ideas for the game, discussing game mechanics and similar things.

    Disagreeing with someone, is fine, arguing your point, is fine, putting across your opinion on things, is fine. But please, remember to be civil with your disagreements and arguments. Uncivility, from condescention, name calling or questioning the posters character, is not and should not be welcome here.

    Regardless of whether you disagree, argue your point or put your own opinion across, it should be done so politely and succintly, not only does it make the forums a better place, but you may recieve a better reception for your side of things if you are civil and put across your thoughts in a thought out, polite manner.

    Thanks for reading!
     
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  2. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    Well said.
     
  3. Kira Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree. We're all gamers here. We all want what's best for the game. No reason to be personal when we all want what's best for each other.
     
  4. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    Will the moderation team be acting more clearly and consistently to help promote good community behavior?
    • Using built-in forum moderation features, instead of rubber-stamped private messages or public shaming by making posts to call someone out
    • Actually responding to questions about why an infraction has been given when it's unclear, instead of ignoring questions by confused users
    • Taking moderative action when they say they'll be taking moderative action, instead of lowering themselves to the poster's level and getting into a shouting match
    • Enforcing rules based on a universal standard instead of personal standards which may and often do vary from mod to mod("drama llama" is forbidden but "a**hole" and "fascist" are acceptable?)
    • Offering some sort of appeal system when a user thinks that a particular moderator is not representing the standard which all users, and especially all moderators, should be held to
    • Taking the time to read and consider complaints, instead of seeing a name and a post and handing out red cards immediately
    • Acknowledging, consistently, when a report has been filed against a user or post and giving some sort of feedback to the reporter as to whether anything will be done and whether the perceived fault was worth filing a report over
    I think a lot of the problem with behavior on this forum(which has been noted to be unusually harsh to both newcomers and veterans alike) is due in large part to the moderation atmosphere. The rules say we're supposed to be civil to each other, but leveling insults and flames often goes unpunished. The rules specifically forbid slinging those insults at Keen staff, but I've seen users persist for months unpunished while posting nothing but "Keen aren't doing anything, Keen sucks at their job, Keen are just going to take our money and leave."

    If a community is bad, it's because the people in charge of setting the standards of behavior are not doing their job. And the people in charge of setting the standards of behavior in this particular community are decidedly some of the worst of the bunch.
     
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  5. RayvenQ Moderator

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    I'll answer the ones that I can.

    They are, although some mods may issue private warnings if they feel the user doesn't deserve a public warning. As for making a post, it points out and highlights what nuances of behaviour is unacceptable.

    I would when I see it, at the very least, I'll message the user who has commited the offence, plus it's usually fairly obvious as to why. (Also, see above, if you're going to say mods shouldn't publically call someone out, but should still explain why, well...yeah)

    Haven't done that myself and that isn't the standard I uphold myself to.

    Moderators take the rules and use their personal standards to help with the nuance of the between the lines of the rules. Also context is very important, which is why moderators use nuace than black and white rule following.

    Possibly worth looking into, although it'd mean additions to the forum, which I'm not the one who does them. If you do get a warning that you disagree with, message either the moderator who warned you, or another moderator to discuss it.

    Whenever I get a report, I look at the report, post and thread and where neccesary, back at the users previous behaviour.

    When you submit a report, it will either get Assigned to another moderator (if the moderator thinks another mod can handle it better) Resolved (Where it gets sorted out then and there, either right away or it is ongoing, if sorting it out would neccesitate a langthy discussion with a user) or Rejected (Whereby the moderator who is reading it thinks your report is not a valid concern) And when one of those actions are taken, the user gets notified of which choice happened, though admittedly the tickbox to do this can be easily missed if you're doing many things at once).

    Moderators can only take action on things that they see, either by browsing themselves, or, more importantly, reports. Those are the only two ways we know of problematic posts, which is why reporting is important. As for your example, those aren't attacks per se, more consumers venting their frustration at what is a long process of the game being developed.

    Yeah, that's completely untrue, this is my opinion both before and after being a mod, Having seen the community and the mods from both sides, I can say that. Yes there are some issues, and occasionally arguments will get above an acceptable level, that's normal in any forum, and on the whole, the KSH Community isn't all that bad, and the moderators are fairly good too. The thing with moderators is, if they're doing their job right, then for the most part, people don't notice them. Keep in mind, moderators are unpaid volounteers freely giving their personal free time for the community they like, and that there's plenty of issues they deal with behind the scenes, that the end user never has to see.
     
  6. DarkGhost Junior Engineer

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    Which, again, would go against and for the first and second points of Volfram's post.
    Plus, does everyone has to know that a particular person has been warned x times for x,y,z reason ? Don't forget the warning panel is private for each user, and there's a reason for that.
     
  7. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    If this is the case, that would be an improvement. This is actually me repeating a similar suggestion someone else has made, which was ignored at the time. The last time I was given a warning, it was in the form of a rubber-stamp private message and a snarky public-shaming post, and all followup questions I asked were ignored. This was, admittedly, before fairly recent changes in how the forum is handled, and I haven't been around because the moderation atmosphere back then was beyond atrocious.
    You can explain to someone why they have been warned without doing so publicly. Of the cases I've had, one was pretty obvious, another was not, and I received no response as to what it was that I did.
    I should hope not. It's a standard I would hope everyone would hold themselves to. I have experienced at least one incident where it was not.
    I'm always shy about interacting with moderators. I don't know who is appropriate to talk to, and I don't want to overburden someone unduly. Unlike other people I've discussed this with, I'm not chummy with any of the staff. My experience with moderators in any community has generally been that of angry cops, and summoning their wrath is as liable to get yourself punished as anyone else.

    There was at least one community where I was banned in a manner explicitly contrary to established guidelines.
    This for the most part hasn't been something I've observed, but there was one instance on the old software where I filed a report and said in it that I was only wanting to open a ticket, not asking for any action to be taken. Action was taken immediately, both when I initially opened the ticket, and when I requested action be taken. It's honestly never sat well with me that the individual in question basically got punished twice for only doing one thing.
    I have submitted several reports(using the Report button, not via direct message to a moderator, which does always get a response), and the only reason I knew that feedback could be given is because someone else I know (who was chummy with a few of the moderators at the time) told me about her experiences with filing reports. I have never received any sort of feedback on any of the reports I filed this way. Not even a rejection.

    It is because moderators are unpaid volunteers that I believe they should be held to a higher standard. You are here by choice, nobody is forcing you to oversee the community. If you aren't capable of setting a behavioral example, then you owe it to yourself and the community you oversee to resign and let someone better have the spot.(This is a statement to anyone and everyone who has authority, not to RayvenQ directly)

    I would like to point out that I have been a moderator on a forum many years ago, and I have been offered moderation positions in communities as recently as earlier this year. Because I do not believe I can hold myself to an adequate standard, I have refused all of the recent offers. Consequences of this included unsubscribing from a good friend's Twitch.tv channel rather than have to put up with her then-boyfriend who was often just as bad as the trolls he had been given authority to deal with. It is not out of ignorance that I hold these beliefs. In fact, it wasn't until I'd held some authority myself that I came to them.

    You can tell how good a child's parents are by how the child behaves. The forum is the child, and the staff are the parents. If a forum is out of control, the problem lies with the staff.
    Well yes and no. One way that moderators can do their job is by interacting regularly with the forum on a friendly basis(TodesRitter was known to do this before he got charge over a particular subforum) and, in fact, many of the best staff I have encountered in any community were also some of the most active members within those communities. I do agree with the technician side of the statement, that the best sign of good staff is that nothing really goes wrong.

    This statement does not make sense. The first two points of my post were that moderators should address users who break rules directly and not via a form letter, and that moderators should respond to further inquiry when a user is unsure of exactly what they've done wrong. I suppose not doing these things does contribute to the inability to notice a moderator's presence, but I certainly don't think that's a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
  8. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    1,286
    I did that and got a warning for it. Three of which I knew nothing about.

    And that's why forum rules need to be clear. How are users meant to know what is 'black and white' to report it?
     
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  9. RayvenQ Moderator

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    562
    Since you've admitted there have been changes, hang around a while and judge on how it is now rather than what it was.

    Public warnings are simply present on this forum, and the purpose is, not only to warn the user of the behaviour, but also to warn other members who saw the post that that kind of behaviour is not allowed.

    All I can say is Not every forum is representative of this one. If you feel the need to judge this forum based on others, well, it's not something I can help you with.

    Again, judge from now and not the past, new system, new ways of doing things. And yes, you won't be able to observe what moderators do with a report. Doesn't mean nothing gets done though.

    As I'm fairly new I can't really comment about that, as I also don't know for how long the send notification system has been in place.

    I meant in regards to Moderator activities, not community participation as a whole.

    Read the rules, and when reporting a post, provide information on which rules you believe is being broken. Unless it appears that you're trying to report people you have had a disagreement with, or you're attempting to use the reports to get innocent people in trouble, you wont be punished for reporting.

    Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, infact has been the last few posts. Post any further discussion about stuff like this in the Feedback Thread, as this thread was merely a reminder to the forum users to be civil with each other, even when disagreeing with them.
     
  10. DarkGhost Junior Engineer

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    You're asking to get more "public posts" from moderators to show they took actions AND are asking that they shouldn't publically post their actions toward a user. Something wrong there.

    You can know what is "Black and white" by simply reading the forum rules. They're clear and precise. Spamming/Abusing the report system remains spam.
    http://forums.keenswh.com/threads/forum-rules-guidelines-english.6483624/
     
  11. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    From personal experience....before anyone has a dig at how a moderator does his task, they should first try it for themselves. It's a thankless task usually.

    I am a moderator on another unrelated forum, so I have seen both sides of the 'police' activity on forums. Try as you might, you cannot please all the members all the time, and you can end up being accused of being too harsh or too lenient....sometimes for the same action! The rules are set, and you have to enforce them as you see best. That's why moderators are a team, so you can get a second or third opinion. Not one person.

    Moderating is about making the forum a nicer place and keeping things smooth. It's not about punishment, retribution or censorship.

    Differing opinions and points of view are what make forums. Expressing those beliefs whilst still allowing others to express theirs is key. The key is to ensure that all opinions can be heard, not just the aggressive ones. Shouting and abuse do not make an argument more valid. Swearing and name calling cannot replace discussion, no matter how passionate the beliefs of any party in the dialogue.
     
  12. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    I did that, I didn't just report it, I gave a reason and on some occasions the forum rule it was breaking.

    It was black and white, now it's less so but at least it's honest. I was showing you posts that were clearly breaking the rules as they were.
     
  13. Howitz Junior Engineer

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    Who the F*** do YOU think you are to tell me how to behave?!?! i respectfully disagree with your arguments, my good sir. :p
     
  14. Howitz Junior Engineer

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    well, thats racist.
     
  15. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    He's a mod, If I were you I would be more respectful to them unless you're looking for a ban.
     
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  16. Howitz Junior Engineer

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    bah, im sure you can recognize a joke :p i totally agree with him :D

    maybe it was'nt a funny joke after all, but it depend on the views :cool:
     
  17. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    There's a time and place for jokes.
     
  18. WereBottle Apprentice Engineer

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    Hmm, I've been off these forums for a while, I thought the community here were generally pretty well behaved, asides from the odd whinge allong the lines of "Keen haven't implemented the feature I want yet, there for THEY suck!!!!11!!1" which usually got mocked.

    What's happened reccently? Is it anything to do with identity politics?
     
  19. PsicoPato Senior Engineer

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    The number o newcomers on the forums have increased, and for some reason the number o people that buy this game thinking is a finished product and don't care to even try to understand what Early Access means have duplicated, so we are having a lot more rant then before.
     
  20. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    Interesting to see new moderators here.

    One of the reasons I'm posting less here, is because some moderators have too much weight on their actions based on their personal opinions, not only about the post itself, but about the person posting. That's not moderation, that's abuse of power.

    I had enough of it, I'll still post the way I want to, since I truly never offended anyone here, but some moderators are just in my ignore list.
     
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  21. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,377
    I have to mention that like @Volfram said, I saw too many times Moderators got into debates/discussions, plublicly shaming other users and when the targeted person responded, they issued a warning for it, even bans.

    That's why Moderators should only act on Reports made by common users, if moderators issue a Report, only Super Moderators can take action, that's much more transparent also prevents power abuse.
     
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  22. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    How do you know nobody reported these posts, though?
     
  23. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    I can't provide more info, since I would be breaking a forum rule. Let's just say I'm very sure of that.

    My point is: Most forum systems have mechanics for moderation, once a report is issued, it's like a ticket. You assign yourself(a moderator I mean) if allowed or assign someone to deal with it, then the moderator analyses the complaint and act as necessary, all will be documented.

    You might ask: If no report was filed against that post, then what moderators can do if there are clear violations? Simple: File a report and only other moderator can act on it.

    This will prevent personal agendas being forced onto community members.
     
  24. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    I agree with this completely. Having been a moderator who had to manage other moderators on a high profile high traffic forum some things make handling the community a lot easier.

    Having clear rules that are adhered too, not letting emotions dictate moderation decisions and trying to see the point of view of the poster who has the grievance makes the forum community a better place to deal with. In the long run it makes it easier to moderate.

    It also gives a bad image to the company/organisation that the forum is meant to represent.
     
  25. joethepro36 Trainee Engineer

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    In the brief 5 minutes I've browsed this forum, its apparent that anyone mentioning bug reports is being told variants of "Its an alpha" and such in various condescending ways. I would suggest to the moderators that they do not tolerate posts such as these. In many early access games this is used as an excuse to counter any criticism whatsoever and feeds into an echo chamber mentality. The prime example I can think of is a game called Starbound, where many players who had already paid for the game were confronted with a large amount of hostility simply for voicing their concerns about the development.
     
  26. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

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    When people get told "it's alpha", it usually is when they come with suspicious or plain disrespectful attitudes. From "why doesn't Keen fix bugs" through "well, I liked the game but not anymore" to "Keen you are stupid incompetent programmers!!!".
     
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  27. RayvenQ Moderator

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    562
    It's an entirely accurate statement. It IS alpha, posting post upon post whining about the bugs, does nothing helpful. What is helpful is posting in the bug reports section. And usually, as the above user has said, the whole it's alpha argument generally gets thrown at people who are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of the game development status
     
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  28. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    Totally agreed, i have experienced this my self, and remember many users that left to silence city because of this.
    But these people that makes a critique to the game have (has you said in OP post) their right to speak up.
     
  29. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    And they also have the chance to be criticized back. If they made a thread about it, they already expressed their opinion, that does not mean people have to like or agree with them.

    It's not like their threads or posts are getting deleted, they get locked only when things heat up too much or people derail the thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
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  30. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    Thats perfectly fine, thats exacly why you make a critique, the problems is that people think that the "it's alpha, blabla, you whiner" statement its the way to answer these critiques, its not. And some moderators support and cover these kind of actions with their owns.
     
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