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Drone Speculations (WARNING MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT)

Discussion in 'General' started by Nickvr68, Apr 9, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    529
    [SIZE= 9pt]First off, I apologize for the massive wall of text, it was the only way we (angrySCV and I) could figure out how to convey our message. We had a chat yesterday about the future of programming and drones and we thought we should share it with you. This is a chat log from steam chat. Some of the topics we cover are Drone building, computer blocks, wireless communications, rouge AI, countermeasures, and more! Enjoy.

    PS: If there is a way to use a spoiler expand/hide system, please let me know.

    Log Begin:

    AngrySCV: You there?
    [/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Hello[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: hey there I'm the AngriestSCV you just replied to on the forums in the programing thread[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: oh hi[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: You agree with me?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: not quite, but this is a faster method of communication[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: What are your thoughts?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I was actually writing a reply to you when I decided to check steam. Are you suggesting blocky with simple actions only plus full language?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: or is it more of a simple then complex language thing[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I am suggesting that there be both a fully complex programming language, like C#. AND there be a simplified version for people that dot know how to write code.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Do you think that having the simple version be blocky with few functions for interacting with the game would suffice? Blocky already converts from visual code to a few languages.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I think as long as it can work out complex functions just like real coding can, it would suffice. I would prefer to see a fully fleshed out written system though.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: As would I, but I have yet to see a visual programming method, Blocky included, that makes complex functions as easy to write as a normal language, and I fear the ease of use deeply eating away at the power of the language if it is implemented in game.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: A prime example are classes with inheritance. Not simple but very helpful when creating programs.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: True, I think though that if/when you can post ship blueprints and code to the steam workshop, it will make things a lot easier.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Yes, but if it's on the workshop how the person made it is not important, or at least it shouldn't be.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Well since we seem to have found a happy understanding, do you think that such programing systems should be artificially limited to give players an advantage over the ai bots ran by other players?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I think if the person you are fighting is smart enough to make and code AI fighters that can outsmart a human, the coder should be allowed to do that and I would not want to make that person angry.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Well the workshop thing makes the bot operator not necessarily a person that is smart. If there was some way to force you to only run programs that you personally wrote on your bots I would agree, but as it stands you can't prove who had the idea.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: But about the workshop. If someone makes a super AI script, then everyone would use it. It would break the game, for better or worse.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: What is your background so I can get an idea what angle you are looking at this from? I am a computer science graduate student.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Hobbyist who is using C# with monodevelop[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Good I don't have to dumb programming concepts down.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: The first thing that comes to mind to limit drones is limiting network bandwidth to drones, memory a program can use, and the speed it runs at.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Basicly send our programs back to run on 1980s machines so that complex ai becomes hard[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: You are saying that the "programming block" only has so much memory to use?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: yes, but I am honestly not sure how to do that in an easy to explain way in an interpreted language[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: memory might be less important to constrain anyway[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: large amounts of program memory is harder to take advantage of than high execution speeds[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Technicalities aside, it would be neat to have to have "memory banks" on your large ships in order to have better code and more stuff.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I hadn't thought of that, but what if instead of adding memory you could add more computers that each have the same memory limit and have them use the limited bandwidth to communicate data[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: It's one mechanic instead of two and adds a plausible barrier to using more memory[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: The limited memory of machines and the time it takes to access data from another machine is a current problem in parallel computing[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Ok, but what about the wireless transmitter the devs are talking about. You could have a big computer satellite with a ton of computers on it, and use hat to control drones, I see your point though.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I do like it. Distributed control makes it easy for one to have a central point of failure. So for instance I could take out your "mainframe" and disable all your drones.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: And I could build redundant satellites to prevent a total failure in my system[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Exactly[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: signal jammers or chaff actually might have a place here.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I deploy chaff around your mainframe and it is essentially dead until the chaff times out or something[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Or you could write a program that is basically a little DDOS attack on my satellites![/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: this would also provide the advantage of players over drones I was hoping for[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: With limited memory and execution speed and not outside communication drones can't coordinate well giving players an advantage, unless my drone is a cap ship.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: If my drones are cap ships though the opposing player has other problems[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Which you COULD have a drone command ship that releases little fighter drones, and you could build a rouge AI that builds its own ships and attacks everything. :eek:ops:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Yes, and to beat it would require either another drone fleet or teamwork and in either case chaff, my new favorite idea, could be used to great effect.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Chaff would be cool. You could even "possibly" make a RTS system with drones by assigning them commands.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Yes and the best part is chaff only screws drones. Humans would (or at least should) be unaffected[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Exactly, and with wireless camera blocks you could control all of this from an asteroid bunker.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I like it, but the question is how to word this so the community likes it.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Good, now back to the question. How can we spin this so that AI / Drone / NPC hating players want drones as well[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Do you think that a way to easily totally disable drones in a large area and sell it as a free resources idea may work?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: The chaff idea limited communication in the swarm, but for instance a directed microwave weapon or some other scientific sounding stuff could render a drone unable to take action might be enough[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: How ever it is implemented I like the idea of being able to make a base impervious to drones without any of your own.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: And like I said above, you could build a satellite that sends a mini DDoS attack to any receiving computers in it's range.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Unfortunately DDos in this case can be defeated by not using your network communication.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: This is getting back to the idea of drones that are dangerous when alone because they are cap ships or heavily armed fighters[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Well then all your drones have to have enough memory storage/execution speed blocks to be self sufficient. It would be easier to have a main mother ship or satellite with a large computer on it sending out orders.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Self sufficiency in this case could be go destroy all weapons over here and return ( out of DDos range )[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Completely self sufficient drones would be extremely rare, and would be hard to make and expensive to make due to size and component cost.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: that still leaves us in the spot of trying to decide what a drone should be able to do on it's own.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: The attack and return thing could even have orders including the return pre-programed if weapon locations could be scouted[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Is this acceptable?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Well the devs said that they can mine, and I think they will be able to fire weapons. The big game changer is if the devs release small ship grinders/welders. Then drones will be able to build ships too.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I think that that might be a bit complex to program, but it would work[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: meh, I'd have to see how it's done. Being quite disjoint problems they will likely have open source solutions before too long and someone will stich them together[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Disjoint problems?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: These problems don't have much overlap.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Self building is not related to battle tactics ect...[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Ahh, ok. If I can make drones build more drones though, I would program a rouge AI to take over the galaxy! :D[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: And now we are falling into another problem. Where are these drones simulated and when?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: If I make a drone that makes drones, and both these drones make drones... you see where this is going[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Oooh right, in order to continue working they would have to remain rendered and simulated even if they were far away.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Perhaps beacons could say, auto render everything within a 500 meter radius?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I'd like it, but is the cost worth the reward?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Remote mining operations, remember when you are inside an asteroid the game does not render what is outside.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I was just saying render because you were, a simulation range is a better way to say it.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Rendering is based off of if you are within 180 degrees of looking at it.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: If the engine is written well enough most of the ship you are in won't be rendered anyway[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: So you are suggesting drones only work in direct line of sight of a player?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: No, I was referencing the line of sight render system. I want drones to work even if they are 10000 meters away, if the engine can handle that.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: That is why I said that beacons should auto render everything within a 500 meter radius, so that things would continue functioning outside of simulation range.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Would a good limiter be to only allow drones to exist if they have a mother ship and limit mother ships to one per player. With each mother ship only supporting a set number of drones something like 64?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Or better yet tie the drones to the player himself. The player has no processing power but retains ownership through death just as with the med bay and can use a slot for a mothership to dispatch orders[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Define "slot"[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: the 64 number I threw up for example. Each drone, weather part of the mother ship or not would use one[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: This limits the size of the drone fleets[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: It also makes it reasonable to simulate all drones all the time[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I am not sure I like that idea, maybe drones would fall under the amount of objects setting in world creation. You could set it to any number.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I guess that works just as well. Just give an error message when all the drone slots are used on the server.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Would this lead to one player dominating though?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: right, it could lead to drone spam to assert domination of a server.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I kill your drone and make one to replace its server slot. Now you can't replace your drone[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I sadly think it should lead to it. This is not acceptable. You can't fight a drone fleet when you can't make any yourself[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: right, which means either limits or no drones.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Maybe the per player drone limit is the best. I'm not in love with it, but to dominate you need better drones, not more after the server is well established.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: But why have a limit at all, it should balance itself out. Drones should be a reasonable investment of resources, computer blocks, satellite networks and motherships to manage them. There is no limit on player ships, and the game does not view them separately as drones, they are just ships with a remote-control cockpit.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Also, like you said above, the exponential drone problem of drones building drones building drones. After about 32 cycles you are talking 4 billion drones[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: And that basically creates an anti server weapon,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: yep.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: and after you make your first mining/building drone you just log off and watch the server die[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Also with server hopping, someone could bring a mothership with a but-ton of drones on it, and crash the server that way.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: yes, but if I can only have 64 for instance I can't murder reasonable servers and to siege someone I probably want to use drones in a fashion that destroys them for maximal effect so I can replace them. It is really a question of what type of gameplay do you want.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: The per player drone limit makes them more like a personal army than something that can be thought of as a npc corporation[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: True, but the drone limit causing lag, is really no different than me going to a creative server and copy/pasting in a massive ship to crash the server. Griefers will be griefers.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I agree, but I worry that there will be many unintentional server killings with open source drone factories living on servers when a player goes on vacation or something[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: There is no reasonable way to keep griefers from creating a single supper ship and killing servers that way. I'm hoping to find a solution that requires you to try to kill a server.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Agreed. The drones building drones script getting into the workshop would cause INSANE amount of troubles.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: It would be fun to watch though.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: That's why I think there should be an arbitrary limit to the number of drones, and yes it would.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: oh hell. I just thought of a heat seeking drone missile factory roaming a server. That is the kind of stuff I want to be possible.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: OMG YES![/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: I think you would have to manage it like how minecraft tekkit servers work. You turn lag machines (in our case drones) off when you leave.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: There is so much cool stuff that can be done with auto building and usage of drones, but I still feel they need some sort of limit to use. Can you explain the tekkit thing a little better. It was my understanding that the machines would work if you left the area.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: You know what minecraft tekkit is, right?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: i did play it btw just not mp.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: ok[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: The way people would make large auto-miners that were immensely complex, which was fine. But someone figured out how to make them move to new areas automatically. The honor system was used to make people turn them off when they were offline, to prevent the world from being destroyed. Also some super complex sorting machines people made would cause lag, so they were turned off as well.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: I'm guessing computer craft made the moving possible?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: yes, they programed "turtles" (little drones that could build things) to dismantle the blocks and rebuild them somewhere else.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Go figure drones are the problem. I wonder if anyone made crafty turtles that made crafty turtles?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: They could do that, but the turtles they made could not be programmed by the drones, so they were just sitting there.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Well that delays the exponential problem. I guess no one bothered since there are easier ways to kill a server.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: right, but that does not work in our case because we want wireless communications.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Would this be a viable solution to our problem. It removes the possiblity of an autonomous missile drone producing ship if they have to be activated by a person even if it is just walking up and turning them on with the "T" button.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Ah, having to manually turn them on would be a solution.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: Stops the 4 billion problem and shifts the server killing back to a few huge constructions[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]Nickvr68: Well, I have to go eat, talk to you later![/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 9pt]AngrySCV: See you later man

    Log end.

    So what do you think, I apologize for the massive wall of text again, but try to comment on what you think. Especially on the parts about drones building drones, scripts on the workshop, and limits on the number of drones.
    [/SIZE]
     
  2. Ash87 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    Interesting thoughts, I like it all
     
  3. Skeloton Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,069
    couldn't vote on drones as there wasn't a "I would like drones but I know they'll have natural limitations like finite ores and how well we can programme" option or something like that.
     
  4. Uhm Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    149
    Background: Mech engineering student. Kinda understand most of what they are talking about.
    This was one of the most effective methods of communicating an Idea that I've Seen yet.
    With the Assembling/dissasembling drones... that's just a mobile 3D printer.

    With the complex AI codes that everyone will use if u can cut/paste...
    I think that there should be a limit to the amount of commands a single block can store as well. Just enough for more complex, but not enough for say 500 lines of code (I have no idea how much space a line is, so i guess a character limit would be more realistic).
    Another way to have these program blocked ship drones be inferior to people, is having an in game processing time for the drones.
    a.k.a. a command takes a certain amount of time to execute based on its length, complexity, number of imputs and parameters.
    So, a code that is written to streamline will be ineffective.
    Also, code that is based on input/output would be limited by its length. (Each input/output line would take a brief wait time before the drone actually begins the command (ex .5sec delay between each input-output sequence), would make people vs drone firefights interesting, with player superiorty)

    I love the Idea of add on memory Banks (as their own functional block)
    By limiting code length, you can also physically see how complex an unguided drone will be, simply based on its size (aka complex AIs will be inherently bigger than drones that are programed to move from point a to point b and stop)

    Love the Idea of accepting modern programming languages, as well as simplified Languages. Something Like in Microsoft Excel could be a simplified language, which can be coded to do alot (but not as much as programing code) based on input output.

    One thing though, is hopefully they make it so someone cant code a block to maliciously hack other players on the server/hack the server/ hack.
     
  5. Uhm Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    149
    And honestly, if you can program it all, then organize it all on a ship so that it works as an AI, more power to you.
     
  6. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    529
    Thank you! The idea with memory is that for small fighter drones, you could have a satellite or mothership with a lot of storage space, and that could broadcast commands wirelessly to the drones so that they would not need to have as much storage space onboard. That would also mean the in all out wars you could target communication satellites to disable enemy drone networks. It also means you could program a mini DDoS attack to disable a large amount of drones, or chaff like AngrySCV suggested.
     
  7. Uhm Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    149
    hm....
    The DDoS is a bit of a stretch... Then you get 1) Network security thingys 2) Lots of server lag from said ddos. 3) might actually cause players getting kicked for trying to attach the server itself.

    Maybe a scrambler that interupts incoming wireless transmissions... (only so that remote control drones will still send visual back to the user, so its crippled but not blind)
    Or A scrambler and then add RAM (so command chains are brodcasted, executed, then cleared for when new commands are issued, a shortterm way around scramblers, would make remote control)
     
  8. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    We won't have "Drones", we'll have manually programmed ships.

    I'm pretty sure the concept was already covered.
    You enter a set of commands into the control box, the "drone" follows them in order. And I don't mean "Go to asteroid. Mine Iron Ore. Return to base".
    More like:
    1: Activate Thrusters 1, 3, 4, 5 and 7 for 10 seconds
    2: Activate Thruster 2 for 5 seconds
    3: Activate Drill
    4: Activate Thrusters 1, 4 and 7 for 30 seconds.
    5: Activate Thrusters 8 and 9 for 15 seconds
    6: Deactivate Drill
    7: Activate Thruster 6 for 5 seconds
    8: Activate Thrusters 8 and 9 for 20 seconds.
    9: Deactivate Small Reactors 1 and 2.

    Which would result in the "drone" accelerating from its starting position, moving right, turning on the drill, drilling whatever is in front of it, backing up, shutting off the drill and backtracking and then shutting down.
    Though it's altogether possible that we'll end up with a ComputerCraft Mod (Minecraft) style form of programming. Which should hopefully weed out the idiots.
     
  9. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    529
    The DDoS will be targeted at player-coded drone servers, and it should only effect those and not cause much lag.
     
  10. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    529
    I disagree, with sensors and smart programming, you might be able to code a basic AI that can do functions. I believe there will be a system like what you described, but I also say that you will be able to tell drone ships to patrol and fire upon non-faction ships in the area. AngrySCV and I are right now talking about using the wheel block to make "tank" drones that patrol your ship using an interior turret.
     
  11. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    Unlikely. At least not with a small ship. Proximity sensors should be short-ranged things and would be down to dumb-luck if a ship using them would detect another ship with enough distance to be effective.
    It would be possible to do it with a large ship though. Simply program it with a thruster sequence to make it circle an area, the auto-targetting turrets will do their own thing if they spot an un-allied ship.
     
  12. jtank4 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    71
    I enjoyed reading your discussion, and I think I agree on most points you two hit. Sorry to be nitpicky though, I just have to point out that you're probably using DDos wrong. I think what you're thinking might be something like sending signals to the enemy's drones telling them to do the wrong thing, but an actual DDos would be you setting up something to ask for data from the enemy's satellite taking up it's processing power and not giving it a chance to send data to the drones. Chances are, you couldn't actually do something like that, as the satellite will most likely act more like a radio station simply broadcasting commands and not taking requests. However, the thing I think you're thinking of brings up a very interesting point: cyber security. If enemy players could figure out your protocol for sending commands to drones (all they'd have to do is listen to your commands), they could make their own commands making your drones do the wrong thing. This means that players need to come up with some way of encrypting their messages or perhaps sending an encrypted password along with the command for drones to pick up. This could become very interesting.

    EDIT: Computer vision should definitely be a thing Vermillion. It's completely realistic to have it, just a LIDAR block on the top and bottom of it can give it a 3d map of the environment. The way it could work could be adjusted for different scenarios. For flight, have it send an array of approximate radius and position of obstacles closest to it (and maybe faction identification). This would allow for simple force based avoidance, combat, and waypoint navigation. When mining, it could send an array of the position of the closest points to blocks on the ship. These modes could be switched with a command sent to the lidar blocks.
     
  13. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    529
    I was using DDos correctly, I think that the computer blocks will be able to both receive and send commands, and you could "hack" other systems using a program of your own. Be it a DDos or a password cracker. Also, here is an update of our latest chat. It involves a level of AI that would take forever to program, but it would be amazing to do.

    Nickvr68: Have you played the X-series (excluding rebirth)
    AngrySCV: Yes, that programing system kind of sucked.
    AngrySCV: Can't tell you how many times I wanted to be able to use a text editor and more complex logic.
    Nickvr68: I am not talking about the programming, I am talking about the xenon :eek:ops:
    AngrySCV: X-3 and X2 only btw
    Nickvr68: Imagine if we could do that.....
    AngrySCV: I've got a post coming up shortly
    Nickvr68: rouge AI scripts... If they make server hopping possible, and we program the drones to switch servers after they have destroyed one, man. We could destroy the multiverse.
    AngrySCV: I like it. You want npcs? I give you a drone army.
    Nickvr68: Imagine how the community would respond if we unleashed server hopping drone armies! 0.0
    AngrySCV: pissed, and happy all at the same time
    Nickvr68: It would be like in Star Trek, where everyone came together to do one final battle!
    Nickvr68: We could have our own little wolf 359
    AngrySCV: Sadly the drones will win. They have nothing to do but play SE.
    Nickvr68: That is the point!
    Nickvr68: The devs would have to step in and reset all the servers that were taken over. IT WOULD BE AWESOME
    AngrySCV: or, the server owners would...
    AngrySCV: or after the drones have passed the servers are repoped
    Nickvr68: Yes, but with server hopping the drones would come back! And the drones would have to populate a sector, salvage things and build a new sector command ship to maintain hold of things.
    Nickvr68: Whenever a drone capship enters a sector, it begins to build a new capship, like having all the battlestars in BSG.

    So yah, rouge AI. I think it might be feasible if server hopping is added.
     
  14. AngriestSCV Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    32
    Vermillion, if you add in some logic and sensors you have the capability to make a drone. If my drone can know it's relative position to some objects, the ability to do things like turn on engines, and has some form of logic on board such as is possible with any programming language we have a drone.

    No one said anything about the devs doing the path finding for us so that I could issue commands like "move to asteroid A", but something like thrust forward and read distance to object will be enough. Since it only takes 4 nodes to make a positioning system it wouldn't be hard to do your own , obstacle unaware, path finding.

    What you are suggesting won't even be enough to make an elevator considering different accelerations when loaded and unloaded. And could only accomplish things like open doors and set rotor parameters. Not useless, but not far from it. I hope that isn't what the developers intended when they mentioned programming.
     
  15. jtank4 Trainee Engineer

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    You know what, that was silly of me, I sort of forgot you were planning on having the processing done on the main server, so it would need a way to get vision data and so forth from the drones. Of course, that shows an advantage of having each drone do its own processing, you don't have to risk server hacks.

    EDIT: Also, question, do you think antennas should have built in wireless protocol so we can send strings or integers or etc. automatically without breaking them down into bits? Also, could messages be sent over servers? There seem to be a few problems with drones going cross server.
     
  16. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

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    But it balances itself out, jtank4. If all of your drones are self sufficient then they have to have their own memory storage and computer blocks, and it makes them harder to produce. You can make fast and nimble fighter drones connected to a server, but for larger drones for say, mining, they can be large enough to have it's own processer and memory banks. The other option is to have a satellite relay network to control your drones. This makes your drones even more vulnerable however, because an enemy can take out your satellite network to cripple your drone defenses. It will be a balancing act to manage drone control, and I hope the devs implement the system developing.
     
  17. LORDPrometheus Trainee Engineer

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    I feel like the workshop is highly pathetic at doing updates and installs of mods as it is what if drone code was instead posted to pastebin and able to be uploaded and downloaded in game? The minecraft mod computer craft does this.

    Also I feel like LUA is the most generic and easiest coding language for the game to use but that's just my opinion (mostly cause I can use LUA lol)
     
  18. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm really worried about implementation of drones! This should be a game and human interaction and control should be the most powerfull/effective way to do something. If drones and coding, there must be some limitations that makes them less usefull, like "signal range" at which they function and/or processing time as mentioned. I'm pro scripting/macroing, but not full extension programming.
     
  19. AngriestSCV Trainee Engineer

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    @LordPrometheus
    I'm not a fan of lua. That aside it is not exceptionally easy to learn. I'd suggest python again since it is both easy to use, like lua, and has a large base of code that you can use including a large standard library. I do agree that pastebin is a good way to share code though. It worked amazingly with the little computer craft I did mess with.


    Hatchie, I agree drones should not be better than people at doing the same task. Hence the suggestion in the original post that drones have limited memory, processing power, and communication bandwidth. Making a great ai is hard. Making one that rivals humans in thought power with limited resources seems impossible. The chaff and ability to signal jam/ddos also only really hurt drones and not humans. I personally think it will hard for drones to be combat effective against armed players unless they are just fodder for the person in control of the swarm so most drones would likely be used in non combat roles such as building a plane of heavy armor, or mining an asteroid.
     
  20. LORDPrometheus Trainee Engineer

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    Python is a good language too I'm just used to LUA so that's why I suggested it but a Python is probably a better code due to its ease of use.

    Pastebin is awesome
     
  21. Restoon Trainee Engineer

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    There must be some hardcoded "mistakes" in get.position kind of things for firing (aiming) or scripted bots will shoot people in eye from 10km. There is no global troubles in calculation aim for moving target, if you have all needed data, as position, speed, vector and acceleration... i don't believe people would code "dispersion" for their aimbots by good will.
     
  22. Nickvr68 Junior Engineer

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    Restoon, there is already a certain degree of inaccuracy in the gatling gun, and you are forgetting the human factor. The ability of the human mind to think up new solutions and respond on a dime will make it so any reasonable human will defeat the drone in a fair fight. However, there will be a time when some coder unleashes his code to the SE world that contains the knowledge required to defeat the human mind. At that time, we are doomed.

    If we do see a rise to drone battles, it will most likely be one person controlling a carrier, with some friends flying heavy fighters, and a few more drones as disposable wingmen. I don't believe people will be able to code the borg anytime soon.

    (But I will try) :comp:
     
  23. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    Could someone give a TL;DR?
     
  24. Yenius Trainee Engineer

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    Drones building drones, EVE Online drone hives confirmed. :p
     
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