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KeenSWH Explanation of pull & push principles in conveyor system

Discussion in 'Gameplay Help and Troubleshooting' started by George.Mamakos, May 1, 2014.

  1. Linxbolt18

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    It would be cool if there was a catalog block that you could attach the system and then you could search items, and if they were in the system they would be brought to you, like a giant vending machine. Perhaps you could set a form of payment (like some ore or something) so that other players could buy from it.
     
  2. Riddick

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    While somewhat unrelated, I also think that Assemblers should take heed of what components/etc you already have on-hand.

    I have put together a salvage and mining ship that has quad refineries and 6 assemblers with a medium size (only 56) grinder array on the underneath and collectors/connector dump/landing deck on the top... and I have a metric pile of resources, yet have to manually go and find them when I want to build something since the assembler will only make new or break down old... and won't even pull from storage for reprocessing gathered components.


    Might need to re-design my primary ship to function better with the conveyors and such, having seen Don Leo's post and confirming that I've got things configured in a similar manner for my storage units.
     
  3. phlepper

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    Similar to Linxbolt18's idea, it would be good to have a "filter" in the conveyor system that only let certain types of resources through (potentially with options for "only" certain items and "all but" certain items).

    I'd like uranium to follow a different path out of a refinery since it is used for reactors and not by assemblers. Or for ammo / missiles to do something similar for supporting turrets. That way you can go to your "ammo" cargo container to see if you needed to make more or your uranium "supply" container to determine if you needed to mine / process more fuel.

    I could also see making dedicated refineries for processing ores. Examples could be two refineries: one for uranium and one for everything else. Or several refineries where each one is dedicated to a specific ore type. You could then add cargo containers downstream and when they were full, the refinery would become full, and then the upstream container (of raw material) would become full. You could then adjust your storage capacity for each type of raw material based on how much you were using (bigger "buffers" for ammo, for instance). And assemblers downstream would then pull from all the containers to make their components (which I believe is how that works today).

    I apologize if this is already possible, I'm new to the game and still learning the capabilities.

    In the meantime, I'm going to try to use a combination of conveyors and cargo containers to see if I can do this manually: have a container with a conveyor that doesn't allow pulling. Then downstream from it have several containers and manually remove materials from the upstream container and place in the downstream containers (which will then feed refineries, etc.)
     
  4. Raggy

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    Can the welders have a pull setting? I have mine connected to cargo containers to try to balance the load out as I use several welders together but nothing gets moved to them
     
  5. dzikakulka

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    My welder grid is working fine, check your connections. I used to put components even in random welder when connectorts and cargos were full and all other welders pull from that one (not that one applies them and rest welds, components get actually pulled from one welder to another).
     
  6. Rosenkranz

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    If this is how assemblers work in 'assembling' mode.

    * Assembler:
    - If the input inventory is less than 60% full, the assembler issues a pull
    request for the needed materials according to the current blueprint
    - If the output inventory is more than 75% full, the assembler issues a
    push request for its contents.

    Why does it not work in 'disassembling' mode? Right now I have an over abundance of solar cells. As soon as I put it in 'disassembling' it pulls random stuff from cargo and fills to the point that I can't manually add anything else. Nor can I choose what I want to disassemble from the component list. I have to choose from what is in the assembler's inventory.

    So to set it up, I have to turn off the assembler. Unload the random components and load the solar cells. Then I can set it to disassemble hundreds of them. Then turn it back on.

    However, as soon as the assembler's inventory bin gets low enough to issue a pull request, it just pulls random components again rather than pull components based on the disassembly queue.

    If the assembler can pull materials based on it's assembly queue, why doesn't that same logic work in reverse when disassembling stuff? Is this a bug or as intended? Maybe I'm just not understanding the logic.
     
  7. Willemina

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    To avoid the greedy assembler the best way I've found is to disable its conveyor before you put it in disassembly mode. It's a PITA to manually move everything over, but until we get adjustable logic on the block it saves the headache of moving everything out.
     
  8. Rosenkranz

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    Well, that or have an assembler dedicated to disassembly by giving it its own cargo and segregating it with a connection valve.

    What what you want disassembled in the cargo, shut off in incoming connector and set the disassembler on to auto-repeat
     
  9. Willemina

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    That works too. <3 connector valves.
     
  10. ExavierMacbeth

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    Since this subject seems to come up very often I figured I would post a few images to go with understanding conveyers. Perhaps the original thread poster can update his post to include them (and other useful images and instructions) in the original for people who seem to overlook this thread.

    Simple Cargo Dock
    - Requires Manual inventory movement from ship to station container.
    [​IMG]

    Simple Auto Extractor
    - Automatically siphons any inventory out of connect ship except stuff contained in the "In" tray of Assemblers, Refineries, Gun Turrets, Reactors.
    - Connectors paired up with Collectors MUST be set to "Collect All" & "Throw Out"
    [​IMG]


    Auto-Extract with Filtered Storage
    - Automatically pulls everything from Attached Ship and dumps into cargo.
    - Refineries will auto pull any ore, refine it, and when out tray is full push it to the directly connected Cargo Box.
    - Assemblers will auto pull any minerals, assembles stuff, and when out tray is full push it to the directly connected cargo box.
    - Each box will only contain what is being output from each component unless you overfill something.
    - Good for inventory systems before we had the search function.
    [​IMG]

    Complex Linked Facility
    - Input docking has both an auto extract function & a hard-link valve that could be enabled to withdraw items. Do not enable both valve & ejection connector at the same time or the system will simply pull everything in an infinite loop.
    - Duel conveyer blocks between refinery and cargo box provides a gap tricking the refinery into dumping push requests into the connector first before the overflow cargo box. Connector is set to "Throw Out" only so that it ejects minerals to second conveyer network.
    - Second Conveyer Network has receiving bin & assembler in filtered boxes. Use the secondary docking to access that grids inventory.
    - Works very well for multi-station configurations if you want to keep the inventory lists small. I used this setup on a multi-station complex that combined would have had 16 Cargo Containers, 18 Refineries, & 15 Assemblers. Which before the sort functionality was a massive inventory list pain without the separation.
    [​IMG]
    Happy conveyer network designing :)
     
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  11. rottielover

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    ExavierMacbeth - Amazing work! How on earth did you figure out the dual conveyor block trick?

    I was wondering if you would be so kind as to help me understand a bit better. To do so I will give you my example and see...

    Similar to you're complex system, here is what I did (basically):

    Input from Mining Ships:
    Collector array [mining ships use ejectors / connectors set to throw out] ---> Large Cargo (Ore Storage) --> Connector (Out to Refinery's) [collect all throw out, operated manually right now] :

    Ore Storage to Refinery's and refinery overflow:
    : Collector (Refinery Collector) ->Conveyor:Conveyor (just updated to use your trick)- || > Small Cargo Refinery Overflow and Refinery's [currently 5 of them which are tubed together]. --> Collector (out to Ingot storage) [collect all throw out] : : Collector (Ingot Storage In) -> Large Cargo (Ingot Storage)

    Ingot Storage to Assembler's and "Vending Machines":
    Large Cargo (Ingot Storage) --> Small Cargo (Vending Machine 1) }{ two Conveyors on either side }{ 3 assemblers across the back. Tubes run to Turrets for ammo pulling and to a 2nd Vending Machine on the hanger deck.

    So far it's working OK, I'm sure I can improve it though. When the ore is offloaded it goes into the Large storage from there the collector sends it to the refinery's and from there the ingots go to a large storage for use by the assemblers, which then push finished goods into the vending machine small cargo containers.

    What I am worried about is very large mining operations. I do not want to get into a situation where the connectors are spitting ore on the floor of my ship. So far that has not happened, but I am worried about it. As far as I can tell there is no way for the connectors to know to "stop" throwing items if the receiving end is full. So I'm not sure how to deal with that.

    Ideally, I would like to separate the assemblers and have it so that finish products to into another grid, but when I tried that the connector would pull the ingots out of the assemblers ??


    I guess if I were to break it down even more I'm doing a separate Grid for each operation:: | Ore offload and storage | Refining | Ingot storage | manufacturing | finished goods
     
  12. ExavierMacbeth

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    I admit the dual conveyer buffer came from someone else.
    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282711272&postcount=26
    Don posted this lovely image with stuff he found and when his 4th image shows it filling the cargo containers in order I just swapped one out with a connector set to Throw Out. It filled that one first before falling back to overflow :)

    Sounds like your building my original nightmare of a station lol

    For your Input method you might want to consider using a connector:connector docking link instead of having the mining ship eject the ore into a collection pad only to have it ejected again into the refinery. Large Ship Connectors set to eject throw out 250L of material at a time while the small ship Ejector only does about 50L each and the small ship connector only does about 100L each. Docking will allow your Station/Large Ship Connectors to essentially just suck the docked ship dry which is why all my screenshots have it set up this way... though normally I use a 3x3 grid of ejection connectors that can drain a 4million L drilling rig I use in about 30min :p

    If you decide to stick with the collector pad your using instead of a hard dock then you might want to just consider plugging that directly into your refinery array since there isn't much point in collecting it just to eject it a 2nd time unless your using it to split the incoming ore evenly among multiple non-connected refinery grids to keep any of the refineries from being overly greedy and leaving others idle. In which case you have added even more complexity to the system than I have tried... but then I usually flood my system with so much ore it takes 3+ days at 10x refining speed to catch up so never needed to do it that way :)

    The trick to preventing overflow is simply planning ahead. Set up your facility with as much storage as you feel like spending the time to configure. My drill rig I use holds 4 million L so my refinery component is configured to hold 3x that in ore storage & 2x that in mineral storage on the Assembler grid just to be safe... I don't play on 1x Inventory for obvious reasons. Also make sure your conveyers are set up correctly, as long as you can follow a Conveyer Tube/Block path from the collectors to each cargo container without going through anything else (like a reactor or another cargo container) the collectors will always fill all the containers it can see first before trying to overflow deeper into the network. Attach your ejection connector to a different port on one of your cargo containers so it doesn't have a direct connection to the collector and it should never receive ore unless all your other cargo storage fills up first.

    Separating up the assembler inventory is simple if you understood my Complex Facility. Just use the same setup as the Filtered (if on the same grid) or the Complex Refinery (if you want components on a different grid) for the assemblers. When the assemblers do a push request to empty its out box when it gets full it does the same thing the refinery does. You can make each assembler go through/to its own cargo container or ejector if you want. The only downside is waiting for the assembler inventory to fill up enough to generate the push request, hope they make that editable eventually.

    For your separated grids the best your going to be able to do is:
    Extractor/Sorter | Ore Storage & Refinery Line | Mineral Storage & Assembler Lines | Finished Goods Storage

    Ore Storage & Refinery Lines can be set up as a multi grid (say 1-2 Large Cargo + Refinery per grid) but I would recommend having them all dump into a single Assembly Line grid's mineral storage. Since there is no way to filter a refinery line to a specific ore.

    Sorry for the book, bad habit :p

    Oh yea before I forget... try to avoid having Cargo Containers directly touching each other hatch:hatch. I have seen things get pushed through the line of cargo containers randomly when they where linked like that. I recommend making sure the only hatches that get used are the ones you plan to use, avoid extra/redundant connections. Makes things alot easier to control.

    EDIT: 1 thing to keep in mind... Pull Requests (Connector's Collect All) can cross any number of connected tubes & devices and pull from everything except Refinery Inbox, Assembler Inbox, Gun Turret Ammo Box & Reactor Uranium Box. If it sees it on the network it will pull it. Push Requests will follow the tube network from Collector, Refinery Output, Assembler Output, Grinder/Drill into the first empty cargo container or compatible Input Box that it finds, then it will stop. Its why Push requests don't pass through Connector:Connector valves but Pull requests do, the connectors cargo storage basically stalls out the push request :p
     
  13. rottielover

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    Once again extremely helpful!!! Thank you very much!

    If you don't mind I might send you some PM messages around this topic as to not flood this post.

    Thank you once again, I think I have a good understanding now and I'm going to go and try some things!
     
  14. ExavierMacbeth

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    np and feel free.
     
  15. wuselfuzz

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    After reading through this thread, I'm still a bit puzzled about the function of the actual conveyor block.

    What is its function, if you can just connect inventories directly by conveyor tubes? Do you have to have a single conveyor block on your network to make it work, like the controller block in Minecraft's Applied Energistics mod? Is it used for T-junctions?

    Thanks for the other clarifications!
     
  16. Volthorne

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    Perhaps someone can explain to me why this:
    Code:
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/7O1BifY.jpg[/IMG]  
    isn't automatically pulling ammunition from a very simple station-based container -> conveyor tube -> connector? The only reason I can think of is due to the modded weapons, but they're just gatling gun replacements (for the moment)...

    EDIT: YES, I AM AWARE THE CONVEYOR SYSTEM IS LACKING POWER IN THIS PICTURE. THAT IS INTENTIONAL AND NOT THE PROBLEM.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2014
  17. EZ Pickins

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    Red lights on the conveyors tells me there is no power...
     
  18. Volthorne

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    Normally this would be inside of one of my fighters. I stripped away anything not related to the conveyor network to get a clear picture of it, which included the batteries.
     
  19. EZ Pickins

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    Ok..so it's not the obvious (never is)...but the pic is not so great for troubleshooting...
     
  20. Volthorne

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    How is it "not great"? It's just a bunch of conveyor tubes hooked up to some conveyor blocks and gatling cannons.

    From the connector, it goes tube, block, (pick left or right here, they're identical) tube, (pseudo)gatling, corner tube, block, (and then up or down) gatling.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2014
  21. Willemina

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    Have you tested without the modded gun in there? Sort of hard to offer advice with a big unknown like that in the mix.
     
  22. EZ Pickins

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    Looks like a blob of black to me...but anyway, was just trying to help. Good luck with it...
     
  23. Volthorne

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    Just tested, no difference if I swap the modded guns to regular gatlings (it shouldn't matter anyway because it's just a reskin until Embershard has access to the weapons API).
     
  24. Volthorne

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    Are we still stumped by this? Is it really that bad? Or am I just being incredibly dumb and everyone is laughing at me? Because this is now pissing me off to no end and I would love to know what I'm doing wrong.
     
  25. Triffid_Hunter

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    Have you added power, and observed the conveyor lights turning yellow?
     
  26. Volthorne

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    I dunno, did you read any of the posts before my last one?
     
  27. doulos05

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    The pic is not great because it shows the system in a failure state that you've induced and that you insist isn't the cause of the original failure (specifically, no power). For reference, if you have a migraine headache, go get completely drunk, and then stagger into your doctor's office to complain about the migraine the next day; he will tell you that you have a hangover, not a migraine. That's because he can't diagnose the migraine while you're hung over. Hook up a solar panel to it, try it again, and then post screenshots and they'll probably be able to diagnose it better.

    Also, and I don't know if this helps or not, but I've had similar problems when I tried to retrofit a conveyor system onto a mining craft. Rebuilding the craft eliminated the problem. Have you tried completely grinding everything away and rebuilding it?
     
  28. Volthorne

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    Except not really. It's more akin to filling up the windshield washer fluid on your car, and then turning on the wipers to clean your windshield and nothing comes out, so you take it to the mechanic, and turn off your car and ask "why is the fluid not being sprayed when I turn on the wipers?" and he immediately replies "have you tried turning on the car?" - it's implied that the car is on when you ask the question. The same thing applies here. I'm asking if anyone can figure out a reason for WHY the ammo isn't being transferred due to either A) a problem with the conveyor system such as a missing component (I have tried including a container in the system. No luck) or B) if there might be some other external factor (are connectors bugged, etc.).

    Probably not the solution since the conveyor system was built into the original design, not as a retrofit afterwards.
     
  29. doulos05

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    Except exactly. Because the first thing the mechanic would do is not ask "Have you tried turning on the car?" He would say, "OK, let me have the keys." and then eliminate the obvious failure state by turning the car on. We're unable to do that here (unless you share the craft through steam and ask someone to download it and troubleshoot it) so we have to ask you to do it instead. In fact, if you called your friend to ask about your windshield wiper fluid not working, the first thing they'd do is tell you to go out and turn the car on so they could walk you through the troubleshooting.

    Also, speaking as someone who worked in tech support, nothing is assumed or implied. You start with the simplest, most obvious failure state and work your way up from there. You strike me as something of a techie, so that probably ticks you off when getting tech support as much as it ticks me off, "Yes, I have tried rebooting it. I doubt that will help since my modem quit working right after lightning struck the house. But sure, I'll follow your script." But the fact is, obvious failure states trip up everybody sometimes. I spent an extra 10 minutes the other day installing a graphics card in my computer because I forgot the power connector. An obvious failure state, and had I asked one of my tech friends the first thing they would have asked is, "Did you check that the card is seated properly? Did you check that are the power connectors are plugged in?"

    OK, so when you plug in power, what color are the lights on the conveyors? Are the conveyor system doors mated to the appropriate doors on the guns? Are you able to move items between the guns manually using the T menu from a cockpit or the K menu from the guns? Which size container did you use, where was it located? When you use a conveyor system, you need to have a conveyor block next to at least 1 inventory for it to work (at least that has been my experience), is that your current setup? Try it with a conveyor block next to every inventory.
     
  30. Volthorne

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    I'm sorry if I sounded a little bit snippy, but this is getting to the point where I'm seriously considering just not using conveyors anymore. It's really frustrating because I keep seeing everyone else NOT having problems and I'm having nothing but.

    Yellow across all tubes (including the corners which you can barely see in the picture). Yes. Yes. Small, located between the connector and the first conveyor block. Conveyor blocks are mandatory for the four "outside" gatlings, as we don't have T-junction tubes yet. Have not tried conveyor blocks next to the two "inside" gatlings, as they weren't necessary (until now, which I will be testing later tonight).