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Force Field-Type Shields

Discussion in 'General' started by Graewerld, Feb 11, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Yeah. PMWs are fun and useful, and can do a lot of damage in a single hit, but they're not super-weapons. If the target has any turrets at all, you pretty much have to launch multiple ones at the same time to expect a hit. And the bigger and more powerful the weapon, the less maneuverable it is; the ships I build that have main guns have them because the projectiles are too big to have useful acceleration on their own, and need an assisted launch. Which means the more powerful ones have very limited tracking ability, because they can't change their own vector much.

    And unless we're talking about hydrogen missiles, which aren't easy, most missiles aren't fast enough to hit light, maneuverable ships. Keen definitely needs to pay more attention to balancing the game's physics based damage side, but PMWs aren't god weapons. They encourage combined arms in multiplayer, because you need the faster, more maneuverable ships to screen the slower, more expensive ships from the PMWs they can't dodge. You can't just build a giant tank ship and faceroll everyone.
     
  2. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    398
    There's several problems with that you've proposed so I'll go through a few of them. First off in terms of repairing your ship, you're going to have to do that regardless, the only question is when and how. All this would do is move the goal post to another point. Heavy armor itself can already take a good enough punishment so if you're using heavy armor, or a fast enough moving light armor fighter, you shouldn't need that many repairs depending on your piloting ability. You're going to have to repair at some point, the only question remains when will you do it, what will you fix, and how will you fix it.

    Different weapon types: this could be done now the way it is with gatlings doing more against shields with missiles doing more to hull. However this goes back to what I was saying before, there's still more questions that need to be answered. I'm not opposed to adding more than just the standard gatlings and missiles as that would give more variety, but then you have to answer how much damage each would do to shields and hull. there's alot of balancing that would go into it. It's not as simple as you think. I used to mod for Star Trek Armada II years ago and even with a game as simple as that it was a balancing act.

    Shield Jammers: now you're getting into a whole new set of blocks and mechanics than just the shields. How long would the Jammer last, and could it potentially be negated etc. If you let it be negated there is no point to having it. If it can't be negated or mitigated in some way then you have to ask how long it keeps the shields down. if it keeps them down for too long then what's the point of having shields at that point. in that instance you would see folks run nothing but shield jammers and you would be right back where you started.

    Generators outside the shield: if you have no way to protect the shield by putting the shield inside its own bubble or even inside the ship then again, why have shields as the generator wouldn't last long enough to be of use. that's just asinine in the terms of ship combat.

    Weapons outside the shield: again if you can't protect all parts of the ship, why have the shield to start with as again that's asinine. damaging your own shield is out right idiotic as again, why have weapons at that point if you're going to damage your own shield. that's just foolishness.

    Overall your line of logic doesn't make much sense nor do the solutions you proposed. They don't answer all of the questions that need to be answered when dealing with something like this. With the things you've proposed there's really no point to adding shields at all or using them if they're not going to protect everything, let alone themselves.
     
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    On the shields being on the outside of the ship I would like to point out another flaw. We can use the red ship as an example. It's landing bay is the outside of the ship but it can protect the generators from 5 of 6 angles. You can expand on that and make a fold that goes over the generators and leave a one block opening on one side (perform a wave like armored grills currently do to stop any forward hits). The generators are then still outside of the ship and yet are protected by the shield.
     
  4. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Still, I have yet to see a spacebattle between 2 lumbering 10mil kg ships at 800m or less lasting more than 10 seconds.
     
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    398
    I've seen several of my cruisers and dreadnoughts engage a starbase a friend and myself constructed. average weight of the dreads and cruisers was about 12m kg minimum with the largest dread at around 25m kg. The base itself is 173m kg. base slaughtered 5 ships at once. If you build them right the battles can last awhile.
     
  6. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Until someone decides to fire 4 ore torpedos at it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    Gravity shield is 100% effective.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Build 2 10mil ships and use the conventional weapons. Set them against each other and fulfill your lifelong dream.
     
  9. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    842
    That only if the enemy went "Hey, I´m going to randomly bring 4 heavy ore torpedoes and lug them around, see if I use them!"

    Ore torpedoes tend to be unwieldy and require forethought, you don´t just copy paste them like in creative.
     
  10. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    Not really an issue to haul few along with larger ships.
    pmw`s are so powerful when compared to normal missiles i would not really want to enter large ship combat without some

    EDIT: consider this. It taks 18 missiles to penetrate large grid heavy armor, whereas a simple pmw can penetrate 5 layers o heavy armor.
     
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  11. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    842
    If penetrating heavy armor is how you measure weapons, the default weapons will obviously falter, however, what use is it to have a heavy armor cuirass if all your exterior functional blocks are destroyed? Plus, if you´ve completely surrounded your ship with heavy armor, you deserve rightfully to be ended in combat.

    Armor should always be your last line of defense, not your first.

    With the normal missile you´re focusing on sustained dps, a lot of firing time and disabling anything that isn´t up-armored.

    With the PMWs is all about getting it to hit and making sure you don´t waste shots, they´re a core design and if disabled, you´re effectively handicaped.
     
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  12. Franblast Apprentice Engineer

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    123
    Riddle me this.
    Bringing all that is pure, joyfull and happy, day after day, week after week. In the act of creating something one can wish, hope and dream. From the peace that lights the path of our inner most sacred sacrifice. In and of, what was once combined and separated. What could be half past after a quarter before yesterdays tomorrow presently. Find friendly feelings for fixing further functions from future factors. Why wouldn't wielding welders weld wooden shielded ship shapes?
    Riddle me that.

    The answer is in the deepest crevice of your nose.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253

    Well if i get stripped from my weapons i still have time to jump away with jump drives.

    If i have hull big enough i can just ram smaller ships.

    The thing is you will have lots of difficulties corking a heavy armor can without pmw`s

    If 2 ships engage in turret spam dps vs turret spam dps they basically try to out tank each other. And if one creates a ship big enough to out tank others it probably is big enough for carrying pmw's too.
    Besides missile turrets are 3x3x3 if i remeber correctly or were they even bigger?
    So they eventually end up taking more space too.

    With pmw's you can get acces to ships inside with less time and less resources used. With good luck enemy vessel is split or cut off power.

    Basically if one is not using them he/she is probably putting himself in disadvantage.
    Speaking of bigger ships of course. Very small large grid ships might have to rely in turrets only.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    842
    "Well if i get stripped from my weapons i still have time to jump away with jump drives."
    -You won´t only get stripped of weapons, but of thrusters too

    "If i have hull big enough i can just ram smaller ships"
    -Lmao, Ramming? really?

    "If 2 ships engage in turret spam dps vs turret spam dps they basically try to out tank each other."
    It´s not only outtank, but out gun too, the one without remaining guns is the loser and has to retreat or get pounded

    "With pmw's you can get acces to ships inside with less time and less resources used. With good luck enemy vessel is split or cut off power."
    PMWs are extremely limited in practicality, and I´m talking of the best ones in that regard, their effectiveness drops incredibly if the enemy is able to execute evasive manouvers or is outside of the effective range.

    Yes, I´m mostly talking about light ships, dreadnoughts are just a waste of materials for me, specially heavy armor ones.
     
  15. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    You can still jump without thrusters.

    Just to make clear i am not trying to lob pmw only ships here. I am juwt trying to say it is beneficial to carry some with you in case you will be able to use them because they deal tons of damage.

    And even if some of them wont hit a homing torpedo or drone wagging on your tail makes it more difficult to complete evasive maneuvers
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    842
    You can jump with only the cockpit and jump drive remaining if so you wish, here or 40km away, you still need repairs and you are a sitting duck. PMWs are great in small dosages, but you need to thread a very fine line or it´ll hurt your combat capabilities.
     
  17. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    357
    Yep very true. A lot of PVE mentality among players in this game.

    I've lost count of the number of giant monstrosities I've seen sitting around on PVP servers at base never once used in a battle. I've been in numerous factions where the players would make a giant 'battleship' then once it was built proceed to make another one while the other collected dust. This would go on and on till everyone that went near base had low frames. A month later server got wiped and none of those ships ever fired a shot...
    --- Automerge ---
    PMW's don't need to be heavy or complex. Most of the missiles you see on the workshop are made by inexperienced players.



    This is 400 little PMW's being fired on a PVP server. Each 1 is 3 blocks total. Upon launch the server lagged/paused for around 20 seconds. I'd say 60-70% of them didn't hit anything but the ones that did huge damage. Their battleship was cut in half, their turret tower thing evaporated. Obviously this is kind of attack is more then what you normally need but you get the idea.
     
  18. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842
    I don´t know, I´d need to get an idea of PMW launcher, the total mass of the projectiles and how its built.

    My most efficient PMW is a 3x3x11 small ship missile that is guided and can be printed, I could launch eight of those in quick succession and each missile´s mass was around 15-17 tons.

    The mass of the whole system plus a tandem of welded missiles was around 250 tons I think, the printer´s area itself was 5x4x28 (28 ish) small ship blocks

    pretty sizeable damage, nothing ridiculous like 100K ore boulders at max speed, but not too far off.

    That system was only developed for 1.3 km and up in range.
     
  19. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Sometimes Space Engineers reminds me of the Leopard 1.
    The Leopard 1 was developed and built with the concept of armor being rendered almost useless due to advances in HEAT warheads. Or in SE's case, PMWs.

    My only complaint is that light armor is in turn too susceptible to small grid weapons and large grid gatlings to provide any sort of protection. You can't evade weapons fire forever.
    And I don't really think you can field 20 light armor corvettes for every PMW battlecruiser.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    Without even thinking about tking advantage from each of them simultaneously
     
  21. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    Ever heard the word cannon fodder?
     
  22. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    On a server with an equal amount of players on each side, you're going to need to pick your battles if you want the numerical advantage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    so i fire one of my many other torpedoes that arent affected by gravity shields.
     
  24. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    I turn my grav shield into a grav drive and now your missile and my ship are the same speed.

    I do love these what if battles people play out in their minds.
     
  25. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

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    382
    Shields probably wouldn't be needed, if we had decent A.I. fighters to take out incoming pmws and bombers.
     
  26. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    The current shield mods out there work on a principal of intercepting damage/deformation dealt to blocks on a grid. Therefore they are:
    a) Unable to cause momentum/velocity changes to a colliding object, and
    b) Must cling to the hull - no trekky ellipsoidal bubble shields

    To get a trekky ellipsoidal bubble shield that causes bullets and smaller vessels to bounce off, you would need to modify the source code:
    - A set of shield generators adds a bubble (or facings of a partial bubble) as a new collidable physics rigid body
    - Collision callback on the shield runs code to deplete HP, energy, etc.
    - The collision can be set to 100% elastic so grids and voxels bounce off, but I don't know what kind of Havok magic or game coding you need to do to prevent bullets from vanishing on impact***
    - There are collision layer issues regarding the shield colliding with the ship, the passengers inside the ship, etc. There is NO ability to set faction alignment on the collision layers, and there is a limit of 31 layers in the game (24 of which are already in use). If the bubble is solid through, rotors inside might explode and people not in seats would die when the shields are on. If the bubble has a thickness, it is possible to bypass at high speed (bullet-through-paper) and you still can't shoot out from the inside.
    - High risk of physics errors as the shield rigid body interacts with the other physics in the game.


    ***Though I would love to see railgun rounds that could destroy several blocks in a line, or penetrate multiple blocks without destroying all of them
     
  27. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    And in every single one of them, my ships lose. Badly.
     
  28. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    Shields....

    Shields are only valid in a game designed to have them, and with weapons designed to damage shields only, or a mix of weapons with different effectiveness against hulls or shields.

    Otherwise...it's like playing rock/paper/scissors with no paper. Everyone chooses rock and nobody wins.

    There has to be a benefit to shields, along with disadvantages. Reasons to hasve them, and reasons not to. As it stands, the game has dumbfire missiles with limited range, projectile weapons with limited range and accuracy, and PMWs that basically invovle throwing a big lump of kinetic energy at a target. With everything limited to 100m/s, head away at max speed.....and you are safe
     
  29. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    Its a sign of the potential this game has if everything were tp get fixed
     
  30. Graewerld Trainee Engineer

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    57
    *sees all the others crowding in to discuss and carefully looks for the nearest escape pod*
     
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