Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Game exploits that needs fixing (Dropping ingots on bases, turret range.)

Discussion in 'Balancing' started by Jono, Aug 18, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Jono Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    Ok so the issue is. Playing multiplayer people have started bombing bases by dropping ingots out of a connector.
    They can hover above a base 1km up using a camera to aim, well out of range of turrets. Now the ingots that land
    on the base cant be defended by turrets. And they do unreal damage shred through the base even the ground under the base looks like its been nuked. My base had 5 stories of heavy armor and the ingots went straight through.

    Also small ship gattling guns and rockets have longer range than normal base turrets. People can simply snipe turrets without being fired back at.

    Now i know in space people can defend against grav launching ingots at bases. But on earth you cant use gravity gens to defend your base.

    This is wrecking the game for me.

    Im posting this here hopefully keen will fix this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Bumber Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    990
    Is there not a turret setting for targeting items and debris? You could build an orbital defense tower.
     
  3. Jono Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    I ran a demo and took pics so you can see whats going on, And no the turret doesn't have a setting to shoot ingots or ores.
    [​IMG]
    1st image a heavy block tower 25 blocks thick/high.
    [​IMG]
    2nd image turrets setting set all on.
    [​IMG]
    3rd image dropping iron ingot 1.5km above on tower.
    [​IMG]
    4th image: Had 8 turrets in row, 6 were destroyed ingot went through.
    [​IMG]
    5th: ingot on ground level.
    [​IMG]
    6: Internal damage.

    You couldn't do this much damage with 100 missiles. Its like keens physics code is making ingots components super destructive.
    Imagine building this tower on multiplayer and some dude drops an ingot on the roof. This was just dropped under the planets normal gravity. It cant be stopped or blocked in any way.
     
  4. Scya Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    260
    Is the option for targeting moving objects removed? It targeted everything moving over 3 m/s

    @Jono You can build a fighter or patoling drone or the best option - your own missile out of small grid (look for PMW on workshop). Turrets are not omnipotent, and that's good IMO.
     
  5. Samulus Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    89
    My question is how many ingots are in that stack you dropped? The real problem lies in the fact that Keen bundles all items of a similar type into one stack, so you could have several heavy blocks' worth of mass focused on that pinpoint area of impact. The model only shows that there are 8 or so ingots though. The fact that breaking a container with 100k ingots focuses the mass into one entity (and it does actually register the weight, mind you), or even more common, a connector/ejector dropping maximum kg in one "bite" on a x10 inventory size server makes it worse. Ore scales in the size of the rock dropped to very limited point, so they have the same issue.... An iron ore rock with 100,000 ore in now way differs in size to one with 1,000,000 ore.

    Before I state my proposed change, I'm going to nitpick and say the elevation you dropped the ingots from was actually less than 1.5 km due to the altimeter measuring from the ground and not the building. So your results support you even more so. But how many ingots were in that stack?

    What they NEED to do is limit the amount of mass or quantity of said item within a stack to something more realistic instead of letting it be infinite. Dropping 5000 stacks of 20 ingots each wouldn't do near the damage as a single stack of ingots with the density of a small neutron star.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. Jono Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    Hi Scya the turrets no longer have that function or even the option to target turrets only. Also i reckon i could bomb a base higher up even 5km is well out of range of that PMW?. Also you could stay out of range of drones.
    Im not sure of drone AI if anyones made a working one yet. Copying keens pirates scripts dont work i was asking friends and they said its coded to not work if you try to use it.
    Also the servers i play have auto reset and run cleanups that shutdown refineries,assemblers, timer blocks and stuff is turned off to improve performance which may disable those scripts.

    I do have a way to cancel this out. By setting up a bunch of connectors and collectors and have them all dump ingots, ores what ever and spam the max objects setting of the server. So if any one tries this there ingot bomb will disapear. This may upset server admin.
    --- Automerge ---
    Hi Samulus i dropped one 4k ingot.
    [​IMG]

    I also tested with dropping two heavy armor blocks large grid together on the bunker which weighed like 6000kg. All these things also reach max velocity of 100m/s on vanilla.
    It only went through 4 layers thick not the full 25layers of grids heavy armor.
    [​IMG]

    Perhaps even armor blocks are too weak.
     
  7. Scya Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    260
    Or just make the top layer of your base from collectors. Ingot and ore bombs have no chance anymore! :-D

    About drones, if the autopilot function is not broken again you can build drones only with this feature toggled on and waypointed GPS coordinates. This way no timer is needed and they can operate out of 5 km range.

    And this may help a very lot.
     
  8. Samulus Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    89
    I would say so, and that tends to be the current consensus. Heavy and light armor gets deformed way to easily.

    And 3094k is actually 3,940,000 ingots (or FE units, whatever). Each ingot is one kg, so almost 4 million kg's we're dropped in that pinpoint area. I will say, that SHOULD do that just based on physics, weak armor or not. What shouldn't be allowed is all of that mass to be focused in that small of an entity, i.e. smaller than a large grid block which is a 2.5m square.

    I just did some sloppy math, knowing that each unit of FE ingot is .12 L volume, that stack of iron ingots would be a little over the size of a 31 block cube in game being dropped on that building... That's our problem here.

    On a side note, this same issue is worse in any setting above "realistic" capacity. Sure, huge masses can be dropped from ships, but some of these servers are set to 1000 backpack multipliers which affects all cargo capacity and transfer volume as well. And volume in your pack doesn't affect your jetpack maneuverability like it does on a ship... So on a 1000 pack volume server, I couldn't quite fit but 80% of what you dropped on the building but it would be well more than enough, and I could just hover up and empty my pack contents and BOOM (lol).

    I think the game is getting to the point where they need to standardize survival settings so they can actually balance things out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    There are no rules in warfare. Can't do this or that, ridiculous. Getting your ass kicked by someone who thought of something you didn't and whining about it is laughable. Find a way round it like don't build your bases out in the open is a start. I'm sorry if this is a bit stark but it's true. If someone drops a ton of whatever on your base from orbit then it's gunna cause total devastation period and any base out in the open in a warfare enviroment is toast. What you going to do when someone decides to build special kamakazi ships full of explosives to bomb you bases with whine about that aswell! I myself refined an idea i got from w4stedspace. He knows his stuff you should go take a look.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    773
    Being able to bombard an enemy base by simply taking hydrogen bottles and some steel plates should not be possible.

    But it´s the nature of the default 10x.
    That doesn´t make it any more balanced.
     
  11. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    Thing is its not real life warfare, at the end of it the aim is to have fun on both sides rather than one guys epic base getting stomped by a dude with a jetpack and a rock.

    It being a game keen can make decisions on how players can fight one another so that combat is fun. Aiming for a simulation of real life warfare would be very not fun.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    Oh for @@~[s sake it's an epic sandbox game and you want to ruin it by having Keen dictate the rules of warfare. There are No Rules In Warfare, except Keens ideas for the balancing of things. All things are possible that's the idea is it not. If an enemy wants to bombard someone from space then you gotta deal with it not moan for mummy! It's not fair, It's not right, they can't do that. It's as real as you want it to be or not thats the point and what you gunna do if Keen somehow stops people dropping ingots or plates from space, they will just be replaced with drones or kamikazi ships or something else. your argument is pointless. end of.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    I don't want it ruined by keen leaving in blatently overpowered exploits. Something like flying in a jetpack and dropping a stone on somebodys roof is a greifing tool, providing stupid amounts of damage for zero effort. If somebody wants to go to the effort to build a ship to drop rods of armor or even boulders from orbit, fine. But being able to match that damage with a jetpack and a hand drill... Do you really, really think that is good?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,992
    turrets need a new parameter "target loose components" or "target trash."


    but seriously
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  15. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    I would not trust my turrets with shooting loose items. They'd shred my stuff for sure.

    Can they still target moving objects?
     
  16. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,992

    yeah.........but i remember correctly the only time i ever used it....it ended up firing on my ship as i attempted to leave the station. :(

    flashbacks to red faction 1 when the miners attempted to flee mars only to get shot to pieces by rockets....
     
  17. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    erm soz didnt mean that it was just a spurt of text that came out all wrong.
    perhaps the armour blocks needs rebalancing in some way. perhaps they need strenghtening in some way or other?
     
  18. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,992
    I never got to play the game when blocks were pretty strong.
    you can still see the clip in the background

    crashes into the easy start green station and only loses some parts.
    wheres when you do that in modern space engineers the ship entirely disintegrates into nothing. :p

    I wouldn't reload as much if ships didn't disintegrate or melt into the ground as much....simply put
     
  19. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    Yeah, ships used to crash more realisticaly. Now they just explode and whatever they hit explodes with them. Can't land on planet a bit hard anymore it just blows a big hole in the ground and the ship has a chain reaction explosion. It would be nice if you landed a bit hard and you lost your landing gear or it crumpelled all the blocks on the bottom and never make a hole.
    Once I landed a big grid asteroid miner on planet and the front right landing gear hit the deck a bit hard, clang didn't like this he promply sucked the ship into a big hole, ship then fell into hole and when it reached bottom made another big hole and another till shields ran out and ship exploded in a big mess. The hole was so deep I made a multi level base out of it with hanger space.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,992

    the amount of times I'd have a slightly rough landing with the planetary lander and the large atmospheric thrusters just explode.
    calm down keen it was just a rough landing gear impact...not a bloody heavy duty Its super effect! critical hit! warhead[​IMG]
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.