Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Greifers - A Common Miss Conception

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by maxb0mb, Mar 17, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Greifers are a pest, scum on the bottom of your shoe. There are all sorts of greifers, in every game there can be a different kind. Be it a team killer, or a that kamakazies your vehicles into the enemies. Everybody hates that guy, but who will that guy be in Space Engineers. Space Engineers is not your average game. You don't have a specified team. You don't have any specific goal or objective.

    In another topic I made about an MMO style multiplayer people blew up about how we would handle greifers and how there would be no end to them, but once again I ask you what is a greifer in Space Engineers. Because there really is no such thing as a greifer in this game, in my opinion. The only thing that could come close would be a hacker or modder, but with the right software the developers could prevent that with some success. I think what a greifer would resemble in this game would be a pirate, which is a necessary part of this game. I would be baffled if there were no pirates and even more baffled if people got mad at these pirates. I want to know what the players in here are looking for in Space Engineers, because until the recent update, where survival was implemented, this game has really been about creating only. Yes, you could have little battles with one or two of your friends, but not much on a big scale. This game was designed for battles. At this point there is no team system implemented, so it is only rational to assume that it will be a free for all basis. Meaning you can team up with your buds, but that doesn't make you immune to their rocket fire if they decide to betray you. That might be considered a greifer, but that's on you to decide who you want to team up with.

    But I want to know what you guys think this game is supposed to be designed around. Building stuff, or just going nuts with huge battles.
     
  2. DeathsHead Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    137
    Just in case you would be confused who the griefer is, a space engineer griefer spawns In a giant phallus craft and has non consensual intercourse with your mech that you hadn't saved in over an hour.

    A space engineer griefer brings three of his mates each with a different part of a larger grief cruiser that has grav and rocks and warheads, and they combine to form grief voltron.


    A space engineer griefer spawns in, doesn't look at you, goes straight for your ship, looks at it for less then 2 seconds, can't find the cockpit places his own, and goes to maximum thrust only just to get out and leave the server.


    If you can't tell who is the griefer in the server, then it is probably you.
     
  3. Valdemar |FIN| Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    631
    Disagree with you when you say there are no griefers in this game. Like every game, even Space Engineers can be played with bad sportsmanship and disrespect to your fellow engineers. This includes crashing rescues ships into players, using weapons to wreak havoc to other's creations, verbal abuse, attacking players that try to co-operate etc. Of course it can be said that they are just ''pirating around'', but there is a distinct difference between the two.

    Firstly, it is whether players who are ''griefed'' like that of not. These examples can include 2 people co-operating while third one plays pirate, and just wrecking havoc with the whole group having fun.
    Secondly, if players don't like it, whethers the server openly allows pirating. If the server is labeled like PvP/battle/pirating server, people who join there should expect to get shot at.

    And as an answer to your poll, every choice is perfectly valid. Is there a way to play the game wrongly if everyone is having fun? And the ''everyone having fun'' is most important part when it comes to discussing griefing.
     
  4. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,182
     
  5. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Weapons and defenses are clearly a part of this game. A greifer is just one more thing to defend against. Yes, I forgot about verbal abuse, but you can mute them (I think), and you can also make a private server if your worried about that.
     
  6. Valdemar |FIN| Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    631
    Pirating is not griefing and it is fine, as long as everyone agrees to game terms.

    But when player joins the game and his only objective is to bully, harass and abuse other people, then we are talking about griefing (not pirating!) and it's not OK.
     
  7. Igneous01 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    266
    I dont understand this thread - the title implies there is a misunderstanding in the nature of griefing, but than you go on to question the existence of griefing, and you have a poll about how the multiplayer should be structured? AND WHY MISS CONCEPTION?:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

    How... Does... This... Thread... Sense?
     
  8. Caesar15 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    114
    Spelling, a common misconception.
     
  9. Fidel Battista Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    256
    there will be less trouble with griefers when automated weapons (turrets) and a team system get implemented. They are mutualy dependable, coz an automated turret needs to know who the enemy is.

    Then, i dare you to approach a turret defended mining post in a battered rescue ship with 4 mins of fuel.

    however, theres no cure for creative mode...
     
  10. Azi Dahaka Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    220
    People often make the mistake of thinking combat is the focus of this game. It isn't. Deal with it. The poll is especially telling.
     
  11. Fidel Battista Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    256
    which poll?
     
  12. Draygo Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,297
    I think ramming into things is a big point of the game.
    I am not wrong in this thinking, neither are people thinking that combat is the main point of the game, and the people who think building is the main point of the game.

    You see, it is a sandbox game and as a sandbox game in a way you the player determine the goals and direction of the game within the mechanics the game allows.
     
  13. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Dude, Azi, hate to burst your bubble but this game is absolutely combat based. I know that when it first came out there was no weapons, or multiplayer, and only creative, but that was the earliest stage of this game. All your ships now have working weapons and the only thing really missing are those auto-turrets and a team system. And we all know those are coming. Sorry but this isn't LEGO My Little Pony anymore. I would say 90-95% of players are basing their ships for combat (with some for mining and transport, of course). If your not into that stuff, stick to creative or find a new game. Minecraft doesn't have much combat... Sort of. Almost every game that is out is combat based, and Space Engineers is no exception.
     
  14. Disodium Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    10
    It is a sandbox.
    How it is to be played is up to the player(s), there is no definitive 'This is how its to be played'.
    Some servers will have no PvP rules, others will have PvP allowed, once again this is up to the players and what makes a sandbox a sandbox.
    We are just provided the tools to create our own entertainment.
     
  15. Azi Dahaka Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    220
    Ah, a rebuttal. Good. To counter, I would say the perception that this game is combat based is simply because the developers are responding to pressure from the players. Survival combat is extremely impractical at the moment, with hours of work destroyed in seconds. Just like real life. I think you can agree with me that real life is not combat based*. Secondly, I doubt this game is going to be turned into a Team Deathmatch-type system. That would be getting rid of the sandbox aspect. Currently, no ship can be designed for combat very well. You can be better than the rest, but every ship is still weak to incoming fire. Servers will not be constant combat. I mean, look at Minecraft. A relatively small percentage of servers are PvP servers. Sure, there is combat, but that is vs AI, which this game is not planning on adding any time soon. What can I say, people who play sandbox games just like building. Thirdly, I am perfectly fine with combat. I play games with combat, I play on PvP servers in this game. But saying this game is focused on battles is erroneous. It's based on engineering. I would hope that would be evident by now. Finally, the statement you made about how almost every game is combat based is not relevant. Just because everything else is a certain way doesn't mean you have to be. That's why Minecraft has such a huge following: because it was new.

    *OK, a good argument could be made that life is centered around conflict and survival of the fittest. I can agree with that. However, the modern day-to-day life in first world countries is hardly filled with danger.
     
  16. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,597
    Griefing is doin' stuff to other players and/or their things that they don't want done, in a way that contradicts the rules by which that particular server is run.

    If the other players don't mind, it can't be griefing.

    If it's not against the server rules, it can't be griefing. It could still be "being a complete jerk," but it's not griefing.



    And I shall ask you not to sully Madamoiselle Conception's name by implying that there is anything "common" about her, sirrah! *wafts glove under nose*

    *underps typo*
     
  17. Neotician Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    440
    Well, using option 1 and 2, you can throw the entire premise of the game out of the window.
    It's just not possible with the power of todays PC's to have that in a game where ships are made of individual blocks (I'm from EvE, where huge means 200+Vs 200+)
    The fact that physics has to be calculated on such a relatively big scale, makes even regular multiplayer an issue (which is currently evident)
     
  18. mastpayne Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,385

    Pirating (I would think) would be more along the lines of stealing for profit, survival, greed, a bit of a power trip, or just plain 'ol being hungry. It's a free-for-all for the GAIN, and in the end, somebody comes out ahead.



    Just walking in and smashing things, breaking things, and in general creating chaos falls more along the lines of just being anti-social and amoral. Where is the profit? Where is the game-play? What's the point?
     
  19. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Alright, to start off I would like to say that when I said that there where not many games out there that are not many non-combat games out there, I was referring to games for non-violent people to play, not that this game needs to follow any trends.

    Secondly, the Team Death Match is not what I meant by teams. Teams yes, but not like that. Obviously for bigger ships you need more than person to operate that. Your a builder, you must agree with that, and since I do have an inkling that most, if not all, non-creative servers will be combat based. With that in mind, those auto turrets that don't currently do anything right now, need something to shoot at. And since you need team work in combat and non combat scenarios then they can't just fire at anything you didn't build. So something like a code you enter when you first join the server, that you give to the players you want on your team. This would help a little with things like griefers, so that your turrets can fire on them if they come to close. At this point I have no solution for griefers in creative mode, except maybe make a private server.

    And yes, life isn't a constant battle for life and death, but I think that is what makes a video game a video game. It isn't real. It isn't a reality, but you can still do it. Ever watch James Bond movie or Indiana Jones and think "How cool would that be if I did that?" Well, then you remember he also almost dies like 80 times, and get shot in the leg, and sees his best friend explode. It gives you that feeling that your there, with out all the negative consequences. It's the adventure, without the danger. So, I think that is what defines a game, is doing what you wouldn't normally do.

    And last, and maybe most important, is that it takes so long to build only to get destroyed. That is something they really need to change. It is a real pain to hold your saw on a single block for 10 seconds, then do it again, then wait for it to refine, and then build your ship one at a time. I think if you want that sort of a survival then power to you. I think that needs to stay in the game for a sort a realism effect for those who want it. But, I think they need a multiplayer mode for those who are looking for that. And they are out there, believe me. So maybe a space where you still need to mine and all that good stuff, but everything takes way less time to do, like I'm talking how much time it takes down to take a block in Minecraft. That fast. So the game is more fast paced and you don't suffer nearly as much when you lose a ship. Also, and I know some people won't like this, maybe have a blue print system, where there are prebuilt models, as well as spots to add in your custom models. That way when you have all the supplies you need you just click it, then wait like a minute and it's done. I don't really know how that would work, but I think with a little optimization on the developers side, it could solve that problem.
     
  20. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    I don't know if you played Minecraft in its alpha stage, but it was very similar to this. No survival, no multiplayer, no AI enemies. Just straight up mining and building. You could not build a house without experiencing lag. The worlds were like the size of the ones in the Pocket Edition on the iphone, which is tiny if you don't know. Now the maps are massive. Seemingly endless. I have never gotten to the end of one. This game needs to have the processing power to handle that. It already does, unless I'm misinterpreting what your saying. Multiplayer is a problem, and we know that single player can only do so much, but I think that once the connections are stable, and we have dedicated servers up and running, all that will be way in the past. I never get Minecraft lag anymore, and I think that we have yet to see Space Engineers full potential.
     
  21. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Alright, haha, I'm sorry. GRIEFERS.
     
  22. wankerstein Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    185
    I have never seen a group of people agree on what activities are definitely griefing. Almost every (somewhat logical) argument for or against any activity seems to rely solely on the intent of the player performing the act. This is especially true when the accused griefer is using normal, valid gameplay functions to allegedly grief others. I have seen people who shriek "OMG GRIEFER" every time they lose in PVP or are otherwise bested by another player. Sadly, people trying to legitimately play as pirates or bandits or rebels or whatnot are often labeled as griefers simply because they steal from and/or kill other players. Of course, some people who technically are griefing try to hide behind the shield of 'but I'm just a pirate!' which exacerbates the problem.
     
  23. dpurgert Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    Pretty much this.

    Though I would add that you'd need to also be familiar with the rules. For example, in eve online, you can do a lot of "bad" things to someone before the gms will have a chat with you ... and then if you can prove it as warranted (e.g. That group paid us 500m per week for the last month to kill this guy if he's in the system and the three immediately connected to it, here are the mails and cash transfers ... And the notices we sent him ...) ... The gms will allow you to carry on.

    Or at least they used to. Haven't played in ages who knows what may have changed in 6 months or so...
     
  24. NovusNecrontyr Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    72
    I think the two of you are looking for two different kinds of gameplay, both of which could be provided by Space Engineers. However, at the moment, the game is more open than defined. You want to simulate life in space (To an extend)? Then go forth and mine and build a habitat. You want to blow each other up? Play creative and build your ship. Then switch to survival if you really have to.

    The problem at the moment is everyone is throwing their hands in the air, wanting the dev's to build the game how they want it. Instead of saying "Space Engineers is a combat game" Or "Space Engineers is a game about building", why not just play it how you want? That is the definition of sandbox. If the game was combat based, building wouldn't be so in depth (read as time consuming :p) and if it was meant to be building based, why is there a rocket launcher on my ship? Just play to your playstyle :D
     
  25. Beachernaut Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    47
    That's a pretty broad statement, and entirely untrue without something to narrow down the scope. The bulk of my games are non violent/non-combat. Yes there are a lot of combat games, however to assume that "most games out there" are combat is simply an assumption with no facts. Besides, if that were true, just about any Nintendo system in the last decade would have been a complete failure. Racing games, many simulation type games (SimCity, Kerbal Space Program, Flight simulator), sports games, puzzle games, etc. I will agree that most games have some type of competition between players and/or AI, but much of the time this competition does not present itself as combat.
     
  26. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    Now, I have to disagree with you. Even things like Impossible Road (if you haven't played it give it a try) has combat in it. Sure, you aren't killing things with a machine gun, but it is fighting for your survival. Most racing games actually have plenty of combat in them. In Nascar, one of the main objectives of the game, after winning, is making other cars crash by ramming into them. That gives you more points then air time, or tricks, or anything else. I think it kinda depends on what you see as combat.
     
  27. NovusNecrontyr Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    72
    I see you are trying to defend your statement.

    Where is the combat in sports games? Golf? Soccer?

    Where is the combat in simulators? Train simulator? Sim City? The Sims?

    Where is combat in puzzles games? Stanley Parable? Portal?

    Those games do not revolve around combat. Sure, there are a large number of games that focus on combat. Nothing wrong with that. That, however, does not mean Space Engineers needs to revolve around combat. It's an engineering game. A Space simulator. A more realistic one. In all honesty, I would rather have them make the rocket launcher as a defense weapon (Blow up asteroids on a collision course with the station) than as a war weapon. I see practical uses to weapons, not bloodthirsty ones.
     
  28. maxb0mb Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    48
    I will stand by my statement. Sports games. What sport has no form of foul system (besides golf I suppose (Happy Gilmore))? Why? Because at their core sports are a competition. We, as humans, enjoy them because of our evolution. Survival of the fittest. Getting food and a mate was all a competition. Human people are inclined towards that state at competition at all times and foul systems are used as a way to keep that in check, but it certainly doesn't stop it.

    Puzzle games also fall into our evolution of problem solving and finding a way to survive, but I must admit that I can find no combat in that. Same goes for simulators.

    Good points, all around. I overlooked those. Good thinking.
     
  29. NovusNecrontyr Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    72
    Most definitely. 90% of what we do is related to our need to survive. Sports keep you fit. Fight or flight. Puzzles allow for problem solving. Finding solutions.

    Now lets see if we can get this thread back on track :p

    I have run a modded MC server for 2 years now and ran a Vanilla one for a year before that. In that time, I have done anarchy, creative, survival and peaceful. From all that experience, I define a griefer in the following manner:

    Griever(n): Someone who's sole intention is to ruin another persons enjoyment.

    Basically, if they join the game to deliberately piss people off (to feel powerful?) then I wouldn't want them to be welcome.
     
  30. dpurgert Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    105
    You're way out mate -- I've been on roams where we're running at least 150... and it's not exactly "huge" if we get into a fight... (doesn't even TIDI the servers...well, except jumping sometimes)

    "huge" fights these days are on the order of like 1250-1500+ PER SIDE.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.