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How about a restart?

Discussion in 'General' started by guran, Mar 8, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. guran Trainee Engineer

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    70
    Fixing bugs takes a lot of time, energy, and resources. Most bugs that we find are not only caused by wrong coding, but mainly by a grown application structure getting more and more out of control. There are so many dependencies that influence each other, changing something only a litte bit has a big impact on other things. It's obvious, Keen fixed bugs for the past years, and still, every fix has a high chance of causing at least one other problem.

    I don't believe this can go on 3 years more without loosing the interest of the community for the game.

    How about leaving SE as it is and start working on SE II? Why not taking the best of SE, leaving the crap behind, adding a great concept of content, create a new and perfect object and game structure, and start over?

    I would take SE as "we have build and learned a lot", and go on with "Now we do it right!"
    For me, the basic concept of the game is good enough to be worth the work.

    What do YOU think about this?

    *edit* just typo
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  2. Ironviper42 Trainee Engineer

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    Not a bad idea... Sometimes the experience gained outweighs the turmoil of grinding out the product that will most likely never meet the expectations. I would know the communities feed back on this approach as well?
     
  3. OrwellianHaggis Trainee Engineer

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    I'd certainly fund Space Engineers 2.
     
  4. Fehn Trainee Engineer

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    +1
    I just hope I won't have to get enough money to buy it again.
     
  5. guran Trainee Engineer

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    I also would if it's done right.
     
  6. Eikester Apprentice Engineer

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    not really a good idea to cancel the project now as it would be another miner wars, 2 games in a row unfinished? no way i would support a new product by keen if this would happen
     
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  7. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    I would support a space engineers 2 if it were done by someone other than keen... or if KSH submitted to a full and grueling audit, complete with corrective actions... concerning their code management, quality assurance, and release practices.
     
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  8. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    510
    A fresh start would be a good idea *only* if it meant Keen went through a thorough re-examination of Space Engineers, what its strengths and weaknesses are, and came up with a coherent new vision for Space Engineers 2. And that's contingent on having a vision for *this* version of Space Engineers, and either achieving it or failing to achieve it.
     
  9. guran Trainee Engineer

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    Very interesting answers, i hope we get some more this days.
     
  10. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    While the Big Cheese's attitude is "ooh shiney" is > gameplay then SE2 would be a non-starter for me. The graphical update took a year to make and had many players either simply switching the JJAbrams glare and effects off or waiting for modders to deal with them.

    The update to wheels was a vast improvement for me so some faith was restored.
     
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  11. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    The new lighting and armor design are horrible. Which is a shame.

    It feels like we eventually settled on a good balance between realism and color... then it suddenly changed to this retina piercing crud and dirty glass came back with a vengeance. Also, welders nerfed again. Everything the community pushed back on over the last two years was steamrollered back into the game. So much for community feedback, IMHO.

    It's a shame. The game had so much potential and community support. Now it's a bit of a ghost town as people moved on to something else.

    Honestly, it feels as if Keen has just been spinning in circles for the last two years.
     
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  12. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    SE-2 . I would have to think hard about that. If they employed some really good devs, then yes I would buy into it.
    Other than that, whats the point with the people they have. Just be the same, I guess.
     
  13. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    Jokingly. this time use unreal engine.

    I do know where you're coming from I've followed it for great than one year and.......tbh......not a whole lot has changed.
    theres been plenty of updates bug fixes and improvements.
    .
    but on the whole it still feels roughly the same with things looking a bit fancier and being blinded by the clouds
     
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  14. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    This isn't a MMO or paid sub or even micro-transaction based game. They don't need to keep the current community to keep it going. We've already bought and paid for the game. Dumping SE and making a sequel isn't going to go over well. How would we know they would finish SE2 and not dump it within a few months for SE3?

    When you have games with sequels, the original has to be good on its own. If it isn't, then its a dead franchise.

    #170 of top selling games today on Steam as of writing this (would be higher if I filtered out game DLCs). Before we go all doom and gloom, lets try looking up actual info. Frequently during US primetime its in the top 100 games played on steam as well.

    The issue you all have is you've been playing for 5 years. You beat the game. You've done everything you want. The game is old and stagnate for you. Don't be afraid to move on if that's the case. Many of you have thousands and thousands of hours in the game. You done got your money's worth.
     
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  15. guran Trainee Engineer

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    70
    Well, if you talk about the coders, i don't know them, but "this poeple" have come very far, so i assume they know wthat they do.
    I guess, that if you give them a chance to create something from scratch, with all the knowledge they gained during this project, it would have a very solid base and could be spectecular.

    The only thing to avoid is a sensitive application state caused by uncontroled growth of functions intersecting each other. Just look at the modders. Lot's of mods are not working after an update of SE, because fundamental changes in application structure or behavior are showing up and the mods needs adjustments. Why is KSH doing this? There is no need for if you follow a solid concept.

    The more posts i read and think about, the more i get the feeling that it could be better to finish SE as soon as possible without adding ANY new features, and then start something like SE2. If KSH would announce this, i would jump on that train.
    --- Automerge ---
    So the success of SE does not benefit from thousands of mods made by the community?
     
  16. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225

    without mods i can say for certain it'd be alot more empty around here there be alot less servers and youtube videos. ^^
    mods are a powerful thing just look at any elder scrolls or fallout game.
     
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  17. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

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    Exactly!
     
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  18. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    510
    This is one of the things that nags at me. There's this attitude that this is some scrappy little indie company working with a shoe-string budget, so we should be very forgiving of its slow development, but it's a top-selling game.

    It's one of the reasons I was interested in SE to begin with. My favorite games developed extensive modding communities. But this is what gets me about Keen's policy of not talking about its plans -- if you don't know what direction the base game is moving in, it's hard to make serious plans for a sophisticated mod. I'm often surprised the modding community for SE is as extensive as it is.
     
  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    This is one of the things that nags at me: Some people's insistent belief that the development of SE has been slow. It hasn't. Pretty much parallel to Space Engineers my team has been working on an online accounting system. Which means much, much less complicated than something like SE. We just got the bare-bones out last year and we've gotten a lot of praise for our development speed. Maybe SE has been a little slow but nothing special, nothing to give reason for complaint. Not comparing to the tasks they've had to go through... sales don't help if you don't have the manpower. Before anyone say "so hire more people" they've had feelers out for more employees for as long as I've known about them. Not to mention more often than not shoving manpower at a problem don't help at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  20. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    907
    The "flip the table" approach to game development is not the wisest choice. It would lose the trust of those in the player base who see the bigger picture, and those tend to be the ones with thousands of hours in the game (like me).

    The bigger picture, as I see an end to this version of Space engineers would be: is that Keen has great ideas, but "Failure to Launch" problems... and in that light, they may lose me forever.

    I would prefer if they had an overlong Alpha, an equally long Beta, then finally a wrapped up and optimized finished Product. Even if it took years. It would prove to my satisfaction that KSH can actually build such a game successfully, and it would cement myself as a diehard fan of the game for life.

    Flipping the table (imagine a game of Risk or Monopoly if you dont get the term) is, to me, a "quitters move", and an ultimately childish admittance of utter failure. And I dont ever want to see that from a game I've grown fond of.

    my $.02
     
  21. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    510
    How comparable is developing an accounting system, though? I'd think you'd be working with a very different set of constraints, both positive and negative.
     
  22. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    1. Get nine women pregnant.
    2. Put them all in the same room.
    3. Expect a baby in one month.
     
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  23. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    670
    Buy a game from a dev that didn't finish the other game I paid for? I think not. If it were free then okay.
     
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  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    #170 of top selling games today on Steam as of writing this (would be higher if I filtered out game DLCs). Before we go all doom and gloom, lets try looking up actual info. Frequently during US primetime its in the top 100 games played on steam as well.

    The issue you all have is you've been playing for 5 years. You beat the game. You've done everything you want. The game is old and stagnate for you. Don't be afraid to move on if that's the case. Many of you have thousands and thousands of hours in the game. You done got your money's worth.[/QUOTE]

    I'm going to take some umbrage to your statement. In order to beat the game, the game has to be finished. It isn't. "Old and stagnate" for a game in development?

    Getting our "money's worth" isn't the issue. The cost of the title has never been an issue. It's the potential and the direction. But here's the caveat, the monies paid to Keen were used to further development. That's the nature of early release.

    The "don't be afraid" line is a little patronizing. We're quite capable of deciding where our time and interests go without approval or encouragement. However, we've made substantial investments in this title as far as TIME. We've supported a game in development on the promise that it would be finished and substantially better than it was when we paid. Better is very subjective, but from what I've seen over the last 4 years, it's been mostly the tail chasing of bugs.

    Way back in the very early 2000's, I was working with a team of Java developers trying to push out applications based on a bunch of "cowboy'ed" code. Soon we reached a point where fixing bugs due to the poor implementation of the source code was taking substantially more time. We just rewrote the ENTIRE source code into SDKs and then generated our new software suites on those SDKs. The SDKs took several weeks to rewrite from the ground up and debug. But after that, development of our encoders, live-streaming apps, etc., was a breeze.

    Keen is currently in this loop of fixing bugs like they're playing Jenga, IMHO. Anytime they solve a problem it creates instability and issues elsewhere. If we've finally arrived at a list of features, then a rewrite may not be a bad idea. However, there may be plenty of logistic and budgetary issues in doing so. But this is a corner that Keen has painted itself into. I'm just curious when kicking all this water uphill will become fruitful? That can only be wild guess because the amount of communication from Keen is paltry and no one has any idea of where we are in development other than branding certain milestones as "dev" or 'beta" but has little to do where the game actually is.

    The bottom-line is that Keen has never released a "complete" title. This comes from the reception of Miner Wars and where development ended. Perhaps Medieval Engineers will be that title. But we have a lot of apprehension about how SE will end up. After the last major release, confidence is low.

    That's my opinion. But it doesn't fit nicely into your dismissive narrative. Please read what I've written in a calm and neutral inner-voice.
     
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  25. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    That's my point. Making an accounting system is worlds easier, because the environment is so very very much easier to predict, and it still takes years. Compared to our competitors we were fast.
     
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  26. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    I think a restart would be a terrible idea at this stage. In singleplayer at least the game is pretty stable, with most of the time things working ok.

    What it needs in my opinion is not a rewrite, but some direction of what it is going to be because even at this stage it feels like a lot of features that were made because they sounded cool without actually bearing any relation to some kind of overarching plan and then all stuck together. Its close, but needs some careful work making it all mesh together better when playing it.
     
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  27. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    As I suspected, SE is in the top 100 games being played on Steam during US primetime right now as of this writing. Don't take my word for it. Check it yourselves:

    1. Open the Steam Store window/page
    2. Click the Store tab.
    3. Select Stats
    4. Take a gander at the top 100 played games.

    Evidence is there. There's no need for a restart.
     
  28. guran Trainee Engineer

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    70
    Let me see, SE has 4,083 out of 12,072,916 current players. That's a market share of 0.000338% - this is not even near a homeopathic thinning.
     
  29. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    What the hell? No. Hell no even. You have no right to ask for them to abandon a years long project and start over.
    This smacks of what has been referred to in the military as "fuckfuck games." Such tactics are used to break individuals down psychologically. INDIVIDUALS. Furthermore, it's a tactic used for basic training, before individuals become a soldier or Marine or what have you.
    This project is a group effort, a labor of love, and NOT in any way shape or form even close to matters of life and death.
    If you don't like the state or direction of the game, fine. However, in this situation, you are a customer, not a goddamn drill instructor. Check your fucking egos.
     
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  30. Erzherzoghans Trainee Engineer

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    12
    I think a restart would be a bad idea at this point since I think the game is not that far of from being in a finished state. Most of the patches in the past year have been focused on polishing up the game, performance enhancements, eye candy, multiplayer fixes or at least trying to make it better, as well as bug fixes that they can fix at the moment. After the project is done then they can decide where to go if it might be an expansion or something completely different

    Since they did cancel one project I think it was called Minor Wars and 2 products in early access with no other projects completed it would be hard for them to sell future games.

    Either way I got my money's worth for the game and the state it is in I am happy. Glad that mods are supported since it can be quite fun to see what people can come up with. I play only single player but have seen some youtube videos with multiplayer and sometimes it can be quite fun to see how the game handles with multiple players.
     
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