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Hydrogen engine / generator ( For vehicles on the surface of planets + Base)

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by SaturaxCZ, Oct 27, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    Use as vehicle motor: The use of hydrogen in automobiles has long been the dream of many car manufacturers, why not add it to the game to replace uranium reactor ? I would be happy if they operate without battery. Though normal motor needs a battery, or have 1x1x1 small battery block ( i know there is mod for it :rolleyes: ).

    Use as generator: I think it's a good way to produce a lot of energy without relying on uranium, or solar panels that do not produce much power, or none at dark planet sides. It can act as a substitute energy source in emergencies if nothing else. Hydrogen is much more easier to obtain than uranium, specially on planets ( You can see water easy, but uranium below ground ? )
     
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  2. tharkus Junior Engineer

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    712
    could be nice if the hydrogen vehicle motor/reactor generates less energy (half?) as the uranium reactor, because there are a lot of ice in asteroids more than uranium, so, it could make the survival too easy if the hydrogen reactor generates the same ammount.
     
  3. Bruce LeedleLeedleLeedleLee Junior Engineer

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    813
    Nice idea, hydrogen burning cells are kinda effective. But they'll need something to oxidize, unless it sticks to the logic of our H-Thrusters.
    I would still stick to a solar/battery setup, but for little mining sites it would be very useful.
     
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  4. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    With the new planets update you realize that solar panels dont work at night and its harder have them in a good angle to the Sun ;) ( + there are no energy loses in atmosfere ? why ? )
    + Im not big fan of solar panels on planets. I would prefer us H-Thruster logic and have ( X hydrogen = X power ), but you make good point it normaly need oxidize soo... ( X hydrogen + X oxygen = X power ) looks interesting too.
     
  5. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    7,063
    fuel cells would indeed be in interesting way to store energy.
     
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  6. mudthumper131 Trainee Engineer

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    7
    In reality, it takes a Hydrogen reactor of similar size 100 to 1000 times the length of time to produce the same amount of energy because the process does not use radioactive decay. The resources for it are not the problem. In a game, to make it acquire your pseudorealism, you need to simply allow for production of Hydrogen taking a lot longer, and the componentry of a Hydrogen cell is more precise and complex than a nuclear reactor. A nuclear reactor is ALL cooling (one of the main reasons it is inefficient, but powerful).

    In short, this means Hydrogen power would be suitable for light vehicles, or low flying craft that are basically impossible to deck out with great amounts of cargo (power-output to weight ratio of Hydrogen is far lesser than nuclear, obviously).
     
  7. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    Light vehicle with 5x5x5 hydrogen tank ? I think we will need smaler hydrogen tank, or strong engine + with biger hydrogen us. We must first blance engine + fuel tank: size, weight, materials, atc... before decide how much energy will it produce. Same with generator for big ships / base.
     
  8. 4hrjkg Trainee Engineer

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    98
    yea 1x1x1 hydrogen and oxygen tanks and battery required anyway (for short using hydrogen engines/ for supporting player with oxygen while in vehicle, for handling short time big loads)
    it's often enough places where 1x1x1 can be inserted, but something large would create problems.

    i don't understand why they did separate tanks instead of just using storages.

    P.S. i think also that large wood/coal "reactor" is needed for base building (it should require mostly iron, or even stone :), but should be massive and gives very low output ) on start, while no other more rare resources available.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  9. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    Time to necro this topic. Still no idea why hydrogen engine and smaller tank for hydrogen is not in game. Specialy after so much driving on planets.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  10. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    This is nothing but a battery, as I have mentioned in tons of other topics related to hydrogen anything.
    A Hydrogen "engine" / "reactor" does nothing but store energy, we already have the battery, so... Let's make more blocks that does the same job?
     
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  11. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    "The Synlight experiment is investigating the possibility that a similar setup could be used to power a reaction to extract hydrogen from water vapour, which could then be used as a fuel source for aeroplanes and cars." <http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ctivate-synlight/ar-BByDd0R?OCID=ansmsnnews11

    If it's good enough for the scientists and techs to put this much bs into extracting hydrogen from water, it's good enough to add into a game about future design and space exploration.

    Hydrogen is the future. Far more than uranium ever will be.
     
  12. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    That one doesn't really seem like scientists rather Engineers.

    Either way, that still doesn't change the fact that still: A) It is just a battery, B) We already have a battery.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  13. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    I have no idea how did you guys jump from fuel cells on beteries ;)

    You know... battery dont creat energy, but only store it ---> fuel cells do creat energy from hydrogen... so its not battery.

    +first video that explain it + its prety old :


    +In SE you aleready can separate water/ice on oxygen and hydrogen so... change hydrogen alone on energy is easy ( use it for fuel ) and you can save oxygen for breathing ( Perfect for space and planets without oxygen ).

    +If you want it ultra realistic you will consume oxygen + hydrogen to creat energy, if you dont have oxygen in air, but its not part of my suggestion.

    +If i remembe in space shuttle from last century had 3x fuel cells = 7kW-12kW and created water.... realy not new technology + not battery.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  14. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Technically they aren't, but the whole process of creating Hydrogen (at least if it needs to be done without creating massive amount of CO2) makes Hydrogen only an "energy storage medium".
    In SE terms you input energy, and you get out energy.
    That is what in simplistic terms what a battery is.


    Also:
    And the question is whether or not it is viable to do that instead of batteries?
    Hydrogen Cells have many downsides compared to batteries in this real world, and if you wanna take the "this is real world" argument, then in "real world" filling up a hydrogen car is not actually that easy.
    http://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/
    http://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11470/why-fuel-cell-cars-dont-work-part-1
    Hydrogen is apparently a shit way (in real life) to power vehicles with Fuel Cells.
    The efficiency is really bad, and they throttle very bad.

    Fuel Cells are not a new technology by any measure, and @SaturaxCZ Yes they were using Alkaline Fuel Cells.

    EDIT:
    It is very cool that people yell out "but muh reality", but there should be an indication of the whole Fuel Cells vs Batteries debate is in the batteries favor, cheaper to produce, much more available materials, throttles very well, requires less maintenance, etc. and quite a few companies trying to develop hydrogen vehicles in the past dumped the idea completely and went for electric cars instead.
    HFCs is a cool idea, I hope research continues on them, but they do not seem like they will ever be a commercially advantageous technology.

    Also even if we go by SE, SEs Hydrogen Thrusters are obviously not using gaseous Hydrogen, and we therefor we know that it is Liquid (due to the fact about the volumetric storage)
    Also we know another thing, the electrolysis plant we have is the most efficient in the world.
    Fuel Cells do not and cannot use Liquid Hydrogen, and would require multi-staged re-heating and depressurization.
     
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  15. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    I will show you magic trick without CO2.
    solar panel/nuclear power plant ---> energy used for ---> electrolysis on water ---> separeate H ( hydrogen ) O2 ( oxygen ) ---> use hydrogen in engine above + 80-90% efficiency .... clasic engine have 30%fuel 40%diesel
    ( but im not sure, if you know what i mean when i write efficiency, specialy when your ( links ) write how is it not ;) + batteryes are heavy +hydrogen is cheeper then normal fuels ( meybe its diferent in your country )

    Ofcourse price of car and maintenance and how you creat energy in your country is diferent story, clasic power plants creat CO2 ( coal, light oils, natural gas, etc... ) but thats diferent story + how you store used fuel from nuclear power plant.

    +When you use hydrogen tank about same size like fuel you can reach 600-700Km last bmw test...

    +Check last Honda FCV it have almoust same range like BMW test, only refueling take 5min, but you can use time for drinking coffee on fuel station so you can live with it.
    ( i normaly spend more time on fuel station, because i like coffee breaks, but thats my personal taste and driving loong distances ;) )

    Edit:
    I did just try calculate final price i have to spend like normal hydrogen car user:
    0,76kg of hydrogen its = 100 km ( cost to creat and i have to spend is around 4$ ) + all car is lighter, because you dont need parts normal cars do, for example ... gearbox -70-100Kg.
    normal fuel+disel +-12liters = 100km ( cost around 8-10$ based if you use disel or normal fuel + change of prices )

    Car with hydrogen engine cost +/- same like normal engine. I will spend more money on heat seats from leather, then deal with price of engine.

    When i tryed find car with same range and electric engine and batery only... it still dont exist. ( or you must creat custom car with 3 tunes bateryes, where you must balance again and again car weight vs batery capacity on range )

    I will still use my BMW E38 740i and dont care about hydrogen or electric cars. ;) But have hydrogen engine in SE is somthink i want to have.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  16. Cohors Trainee Engineer

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    23
    What if instead of a hydrogen engine the hydrogen thruster created power at a rate tied to its output? That's how it works in reality. It also bugs be that the atmospheric thrusters don't require fuel, but if they did I'd recommend those generate energy too.
     
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  17. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    In real life it is to expensive to do electrolysis, way WAY to expensive and costs a LOT! of power, read the shit I posted and the CO2 issue is not easy to fix.
    You prefer to extract Hydrogen from Methane (I think it was)
    I haven't said anything about that
    Still didn't mention that.

    Hydrogen Cars are apparently a worse thing for a consumer product than an Electric car.
    The infrastructure for an electric car is much easier to implement (by far) than any kind of Hydrogen.
    Basically the current infrastructure is not very easy to adapt to a Hydrogen Fuel Economy while the electric car is much easier because it doesn't require much.

    And then if we want to implement a Hydrogen Engine the hydrogen extraction methods in SE has to become a lot more expensive energy wise for it to make sense (it costs more energy to extract Hydrogen from water than Hydrogen gives back, period). I am quite sure we should just stick with current mechanics instead.
     
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  18. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    I did get it, you are on of this GREEN people, but i realy dont want solve world problems... I will answer you last time, because we did stuck in circle...
    +dont forget its game and you can have hydrogen engine ( 90% of what you write is off-topic ).

    If electrolysis was expensive... you will not buy 0,76kd of hydrogen for 4$ and cost of used energy is logicaly in this 4$. + You can try do electrolysis at home, its experiment for kids in primary schools and you can see how much energy you need and you will know its NOT ( WAY to expensive and costs a LOT ).

    For your... I havent said anytyhing about 1+2....
    Its reaction on your comments... how its same like batery... ( input energy, and you get out energy, etc... ) you see its not, because bateryes can not store same amount of power like hydrogen, until you use pointlessly heavy and big bateryes. With your logic you can use 200 years old bateryes, bacause they too still store power...

    For infractructure... hydrogen tanks can be placed where you want them. ( same like normal disel and fuel stations ) For electricity transfere you need construct new nets, because moust of countyes in EU and US can not transfere big amounts of electricity. Lucky Czech have good electricity net, but when you check other countryes Germany + France have good nets and where is the rest ? ( And it will be BIG problem when just 1/100 people decide use electric only cars )
    + dont forget from where you get power in your power plug at home :tu:

    This is good realistic way how do it too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  19. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Most of the stuff I wrote was related specifically towards Levits who likes to bring up "reality".

    Also you may say "But I really don't want to solve world problems" and I will reply with: Batteries are more efficient in terms of transport and much safer to transport, and H2 is tons more expensive (if you wanna do it green with electrolysis) in terms of energy than any battery and hydrogen would be a much more inefficient way to store the Hydrogen. So honestly, Hydrogen is the more "convenient" option for the end consumer as you can fill up your car much quicker, but in terms of being "green" both options are essentially on the same scale of pollution.

    Then you would essentially obsolete batteries, since batteries would become so much worse if you use that logic.
    No the point I am making is GAME MECHANICALLY they take up exactly the same role.
    Yes and the rest of the infrastructure is based on transporting via trucks (and you can't use any conventional transport methods as hydrogen is so small that ANY! material leaks it, which makes storage really hard) as a gas, or you can do it as a liquid which is extremely dangerous.

    Most electrical grids these days can transport insane amounts of energy, most of the infrastructure addition would be expanding the already existing power net vs. Hydrogen which would require a completely new infrastructure from transport trucks, pipelines, etc. and as I mentioned before, Hydrogen leaks... A lot... Unless it is in liquid form, which again requires it to be kept really really cool, costing a lot of power.

    So, tell me all about the wonders of the green Hydrogen Future?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
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  20. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    <$3000 to be exact and <$60 bucks.

    And we're building space ships with friggin' FTL drives from scratch. I'd say cost is a non-issue.

    ...you work for the oil companies don't you?

    "As of 2016[update], there are 3 hydrogen cars publicly available in select markets; the Toyota Mirai, the Hyundai ix35 FCEV, and the Honda Clarity. Several other companies are working to develop hydrogen cars. As of 2014, 95% of hydrogen is made from natural gas. It can be produced using renewable sources, but that is an expensive process.[3] Integrated wind-to-hydrogen (power to gas) plants, using electrolysis of water, are exploring technologies to deliver costs low enough, and quantities great enough, to compete with hydrogen production using natural gas.[4] The drawbacks of hydrogen use are high carbon emissions intensity when produced from natural gas, capital cost burden, low energy content per unit volume, production and compression of hydrogen, and the large investment in infrastructure that would be required to fuel vehicles.[5][6][7]" < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

    [3] We have solar panels and an electrylosis device that can create hydrogen.
    [4] The same system currently in the game is efficient enough to create enough of the stuff to fly a spaceship (and land one) from one planet to another.

    Capital cost burden: We don't have to worry about that in SE. Carbon Emissions from natural gas: We don't even have natural gas. Low Energy content per unit volume: We use the stuff to launch space ships to the moon. Production and Compression of hydrogen: Well now, we already have that. Large investment in infrastructure that would be required: Finally a friggin reason to build a stationary station!

    Hydrogen is not expensive to create, store, or use. Not when you compare it to any of the other power sources in the game. Solar panels, by far are just as difficult to create if not more so. And a Nuclear reactor small enough to fit inside of your house? How is creating a (THE Most Abundant) naturally occurring substance harder to collect and utilize than Uranium?

    It's not about getting more power back from it, or the same amount. It's about utilizing what you have with sound principles. You can convert hydrogen and oxygen back into electricity that can then be used to power anything that would ever use electricity. Even more, it can be used in a combustion engine. IN Addition, it can be use (even if it is dumbed down in the game) as a fuel source for getting space craft into orbit <https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/hydrogen/hydrogen_fuel_of_choice.html.
     
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  21. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Which releases significant amount of CO2 as that is one of the by products.
    And Electrolysis is inherently more inefficient than battery storage. And again, the storage issue. Also for ingame, it would require either a new block to produce hydrogen or a vast increase to power consumption of the block.
    This would also affect the usefulness of the Hydrogen Thruster as well, otherwise the whole idea of adding Hydrogen Fuel Cells because "it makes sense" make them a magical block converting water directly into power.

    Because most of the Hydrogen in the world is held up inside molecules and requires you to have to break apart the molecular bonds. Notice that we actually had Nuclear Reactors in the real world far before we even had a viable way of even getting significant power from Hydrogen.
    I would much rather have the capability to mod in gas consumption in a reactor and leave this technology which is a cool concept but for actual practical use is not really that practical.
    --- Automerge ---
    Also, yes and as I mentioned above, that would have to change. At least the creation part. Also from any kind of perspective it is also much easier to use Hydrogen in a Thruster than fueling a fuel cell.
     
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  22. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    I realy dont know, if you believe it, or just try bait me in conversation, but its not true. :munch:

    Just check like normal hydrogen station work and you will know there is no need for special infrastructure for hydrogen, or creat complicated pipelines.

    For your recharging of cars batery.... now it take 12 hourse and car can drive few hours, basicaly from home to work, then you plug it in work garage to start recharge again... So how long will it take for car recharge battery for 1 day or more ? Thats why you can not use normal energy plug you have at home now... if you dont want recharge 2-3 days to drive 1day and you will need diferent plug for fast recharging your car. And there is problem... your country net will not let you connect high energy plug for your home, when they dont have net for it. So until you have close to your house one of this guys:
    [​IMG]
    You will never recharge fast your car and you can have 4x biger batery about same size+weight you have right now.
     
  23. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    It does not require a specialized storage device? (Since pressurized hydrogen leaks out of any material due to the atomic size) It does not require specialized transport trucks? It does not require specialized pipelines? Etc?
    In real life at least, transporting and keeping hydrogen sealed is a big issue just because of the molecular size.
    Hydrogen is not easy to deal with in any way shape form. Try and take a read of that article/blog post I linked in my first post about the subject. Rather interesting read to be honest.

    The recharge issue is already being looked at. Also for that matter the energy grid still needs upgraded no matter what, the range is already becoming better and better by the day.
    Also electrical vehicles for long range transportation is still far into the future, but so is hydrogen powered vehicles for the same job as well. The amount of Hydrogen Stations are currently decreasing and I am just not seeing the viability of the technology for again, a long time.

    Currently methane is the only good way to extract Hydrogen, and it creates quite a bit of CO2, and all other alternatives requires so much power that it becomes extremely inefficient.
     
  24. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    You are assuming that the way to create hydrogen is from natural gas and/or you are completely and deliberately ignoring the multitude of other means to create hydrogen from water. We have solar panels in the game already; we'll work with that.

    Storing hydrogen is not a problem. You never see people with hydrogen fill tanks worrying about the stuff leaking out. Sure, you will have some leakage (This is a game that has no such issues though), but seriously, it's so cheap to create now you can even use a propane tank as long as you have the system to refill it. (water well, solar panels, electrolysis device, propane tank.) <Complete system for you home. $20,000. Now add the hydrogen powered portable generator (converted from a propane generator) and you have power to run your whole home off-grid + your car.

    And nothing needs to change for the game. Hydrogen output would need to remain low enough so that you can't just convert it on the fly (straight form your hydrogen generator to the thrusters). The time consuming process and balancing factor would be for those attempting to setup static automated facilities to harvest water from the environment on planets. <That, or mine ice if you want.

    We also had steam engines before we had the first combustion engine; only now do we see just which is the most efficient. To include; we did not have the technology back then to create an efficient hydrogen production system; we didn't even have solar panels for civilian use back then. Everyone thought that nuclear power was the future because of how much power one saw when it was weaponized. But nuclear reactors are not as efficient nor as useful as you may think. They create waste that has to be locked away for thousands of years, most of their entire design is for cooling, the material for fueling it requires all kinds of hassle, the list goes on. Just ask those who once lived around Fukushima, Three-Mile Island, Chernobyl, which they'd prefer.

    Hydrogen on the other hand is 100% free. Water is not hard to come by on Earth; despite what bottled water companies would want you to think. The cost to setup the infrastructure to obtain it costs money sure, (no more than you'd make in a year; so save up.). But once you've invested the capital into producing it, you only ever have to pay for worn out parts. (solar panels: 25 year warrantee, AGM Battery: 12-20 year warrantee, propane tank: <still have mine going 20+years strong, Electrolysis device: <depends on if you make one or buy one.) In total, once you've paid to acquire the things you need, you have roughly 20 years of no electric bill. But just how many people do you know that have $20,000 to spend on something like that.

    How is a nuclear generator practical when it requires a completely separate type of fuel source? How is a battery practical when you have to equip solar panels and/or a nuclear generator to your ship to recharge it for X amount of minutes when all you really need to do is utilize the very fuel that is used in the thrusters? One fuel for all of your needs; No solar panels, no nuclear generators; just hydrogen and the one or two blocks to get your ship moving.

    Running a conveyor to a box that provides power is no more difficult than running any other material through the conveyor system. In fact, you could have the fuel cell strapped right to the back of the hydrogen thruster or tank if you wanted. No batteries needed, no reactor needed. Hydrogen, a thruster, and the fuel cell. <Complete system running off of hydrogen. Same with wheels. No reactor or battery, just a fuel tank (preferably smaller) and a fuel cell to provide the power to get the wheel rolling.

    And before any questions or comment arise as to this system doing away with batteries and/or nuclear generators, remember that the fuel cell would never have the overall output (not without staking) to compete. It provides enough power to turn rotors and wheels and to power the hydrogen thruster (which requires next to nothing) but if ions and/or the atmospheric thrusters (which both uses a lot of electricity) you had best use batteries and or generators for that.
    --- Automerge ---
    BMW has been working on liquid hydrogen tanks for cars, producing for example the BMW Hydrogen 7.

    Compressed hydrogen is a storage form where hydrogen gas is kept under pressures to increase the storage density. Compressed hydrogen in hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (5,000 psi) and 700 bar (10,000 psi) is used for hydrogen tank systems in vehicles, based on type IV carbon-composite technology.[3] Car manufacturers have been developing this solution, such as Honda[4] or Nissan.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage <The rest here. They are working on it.
    --- Automerge ---
    It keeps going...
    Jump to: navigation, search
    BMW Hydrogen 7
    [​IMG]
    Overview
    Manufacturer
    BMW
    Body and chassis
    Class
    Luxury car
    Related BMW 7 Series
    Powertrain
    Engine
    internal combustion engine

    The BMW Hydrogen 7 is a limited production hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle built from 2005-2007[1] by German automobile manufacturer BMW. The car is based on BMW’s traditional gasoline-powered BMW 7 Series (E65) line of vehicles, and more specifically the 760Li. It uses the same 6 litre V-12 motor as does the 760i and 760Li; however, it has been modified to also allow for the combustion of hydrogen as well as gasoline, making it a bivalent engine. Unlike many other current hydrogen powered vehicles like those being produced by Honda, General Motors, and Daimler AG - which use fuel cell technology and hydrogen to produce electricity to power the vehicle - the BMW Hydrogen 7 burns the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine.
     
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  25. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    Read what Levits write about hydrogen storage... he did write it correctly and i have no reason rewrite it. ( i did see it first time working in 2013 so its again nothing new. )

    What exactly you imagine, when hydroget on molecular level start leak, its do absolutly nothink... when you compare it crue oil mining and 24/7 burning of methan ( that realy leaking every day, because burning is not perfect same like animalse and people create methan. Will we reduce number of people too so we dont need so many domestic animals, because methan realy can damage atmosphere ? )
     
  26. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    1,018
    [​IMG]
    You're not looking at the hidden costs. You lose a bunch of energy if you want liquid hydrogen, and the process of releasing the energy is inherently inefficient due to waste heat (since it releases the energy via combustion rather than chemically.)

    Meanwhile with electrolyte batteries...
    They're soon to be faster-charging, longer-lasting, and less explodey than current ones.

    You'll notice how long in SE it takes to fill a hydrogen tank, and the bulkiness of the ice. That's unlikely to change. You're much better of just using hydrogen for hydrogen thrusters.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
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  27. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    I was talking about real life there, and if you did not take that little tidbit out of context you could see I was not talking about ingame.
    And in any of those areas the background radiation is similar to to while you are flying, btw.
    Yes and no. Salt Water doesn't work, any fresh water doesn't work. The water has to be desalinated and/or purified before it can be used properly.
    You do know that a propane tank is not even slightly similar to a hydrogen tank?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
    There is a little thing for you. That is going to make any kind of infrastructure, "brittle", eh ;P, eh: P? I'll show myself out.
    Also.. No... Hydrogen is not free, not even CLOSE to being free. It costs: Labor, time and most importantly: Energy.

    Where are you going to get the energy to create the Hydrogen? Hydrogen is not a magical fuel source you can produce with less energy than it outputs. There is a little thing called thermodynamics.

    And I could easily say: "You could strap a battery on to the grid anywhere you want. No fuel cells needed, no reactors needed"
    Not a Fuel Cell, and believe me, I do not want to drive around with Liquid Hydrogen, remember that little rocket explosion that happened recently?
    The problem with Liquid Hydrogen is it HAS to stay cool, if it doesn't you are looking at some pretty massive pressure explosions.
    It still leaks, which reduces the efficiency.

    I do like this little discussion that every time I say that it leaks, reduces efficiency, is very dangerous to transport because of pressure differentials, liquid hydrogen is an absolute insane hazard to drive around with, requires a completely new infrastructure, pollutes like hell if you want to be able to produce industry level, that it costs more power to create hydrogen than it puts out, etc. it gets mostly ignored.

    In game right now, that Hydrogen is cheaper in power to produce than it puts out is mostly okay. Even if it is unrealistic as fuck, but it doesn't really tread on any intuition as such.
    If you can produce Hydrogen cheaper than the Hydrogen Fuel Cells can produce, then it becomes an issue.


    Also as @Bumber said it reminded me of one thing you two have said a bit. "It will be better in the future" and you can say the exact same thing about batteries.
    Batteries will most likely be the future except in specialist applications where HFCs will be a thing when needed.
     
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  28. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    1,718
    +That picture is old, can you find updated from 2016-17 + you can not count it only like this... until you show efficiency and not only energy... its like you show 1/4 graphs you need to show to get some real result.

    I did already write about it above... you will not fast recharge bateryes, when your country dont have electric net for it. Just check input and outpud of fast rechargin plugs and you will see its not realistic in 95% countryes EU + US until they invest biliones of €/$, so you can only wonder what will cost more... electric nets or hydrogen processing, because driver will pay final bill + tax... And dont forget to ask... from where you get electric in your plug :)

    +New betteryes already dont explode, you can make holes in them, weight less, store more energy and they did start make them this year, but it dont change input you need to recharge them.
    +They did find new crude oil deposit like 22% of world crude oil, so... there is realy no need for hydrogen or electric car at all ;)

    Seriosly... all here know its possible have hydrogen engine/generator/turbine ... there is no reason not get it in game, but we will discuce problems from real world... yea... thats a reason we all play games... solve real world problems and cost of fuels... ( hard core sarcasm ).
    --- Automerge ---

    You write how hydrogen is dangerous.... we have in czech almost 10% cars using propane-butane... if you know what is propane-butane you know what is more dangerous and explode more offen, so hydrogen will be only upgrade for security on roads and for car drivers, etc... + cost of gases is still only 1/2 of normal disel and fuel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. Levits Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,122
    Yeah, got a little off-topic worrying about real-world applications.
    Simple conclusion: It works.
    Reason for having in the game: Because you don't need a battery that you'd have to charge with additional equipment or a nuclear reactor that uses a completely separate fuel on your hydrogen-powered vehicles.
     
  30. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,535
    Simple reasons for not having it ingame:
    1) Treads on a role of another block, since it fulfills basically the same job.
    2) Will require (for it to be implemented and not just give infinite energy) either a new Hydrogen Production block that is very energy expensive or bumping up the Oxygen Generator power input significantly (and that will also screw with Hydrogen Thruster Balance)

    You still need additional equipment to "charge" your Hydrogen powered vehicle either way, don't see what that changes? Like? What so ever?
    If you use them as a battery on a long exploration vehicle you will still have to use solar power or nuclear power to fill it up on Hydrogen (similar to batteries), it is essentially a battery that has a limitless amount of charge on one block since you can just build tanks to continuesly fill it, oh and it also requires piping.
    You could also potentially "charge" it quicker, but again, it still fulfills the exact same role as the battery.
    It is an energy storage device, that's it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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