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Hydrogen engine / generator ( For vehicles on the surface of planets + Base)

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by SaturaxCZ, Oct 27, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    I kinda dont know what are you trying to say ;)

    You must be more specifis how much hydrogen you want create from water... then it may/may not request ALOT of energy.
    Or you think main problem with hydrogen is... energy consuming electrolysis is so big and dont creat enought hydrogen/energy to by worth it, same like sioxernic ? ( well thats not true... )

    When you do it in industrial size, it will get more efficient and then you will need less energy to created more hydrogen / oxygen,

    + because we did speak about thermodynamics with (Bumber) and classic electrolysis have for some one big loses, why not make it more interesting and speak about high temperature electrolysis where you can use heat. That is more efficient way for electrolysis. If some one think... when you create 2x more energy from electrolysis then you put in and say is not worth it... then i can not argue it any longer... and you probably search for some ( for now ) sci-fi sourse of power...

    That edit for JD Horkx...effeciency now is from 80%-90%, if we speak about same think :tu:
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  2. Bumber Senior Engineer

    Where does the high temperature come from? Thermolysis occurs at 2500 °C. That's almost twice the melting temperature of steel (1370 °C.) Very high temperature nuclear reactors run at 1000 °C.

    Where are you getting the 2x figure? It doesn't pass the sanity check. That's energy from nothing.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  3. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Because if you take it from thermodynamics side: :tu: ( i did just copy pass it, at least there will be less grammatical misstakes )

    During electrolysis, the amount of electrical energy that must be added equals the change in Gibbs free energy of the reaction plus the losses in the system. The losses can (theoretically) be arbitrarily close to zero, so the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of any electrochemical process equals 100%. In practice, the efficiency is given by electrical work achieved divided by the Gibbs free energy change of the reaction.

    In most cases, such as room temperature water electrolysis, the electric input is larger than the enthalpy change of the reaction, so some energy is released as waste heat. In the case of electrolysis of steam into hydrogen and oxygen at high temperature, the opposite is true. Heat is absorbed from the surroundings, and the heating value of the produced hydrogen is higher than the electric input. In this case the efficiency relative to electric energy input can be said to be greater than 100%.

    For your 2500 °C to start thermolysis... water need from 100 °C - 800 °C to break.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Bumber Senior Engineer

    Electric energy input. But where are you going to get the thermal energy?
    --- Automerge ---
    That's not 80%-90%, let alone 200%.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    I need to say I'm on @halipatsui and @sioxernic 's side.
    When you look at the In's and out's on the hydrogen cycle, you see this:
    State1: Electrolysis
    - In: Water and Energy(electric)
    - Out: Heat, Oxygen and Hydrogen
    State2: Stored in thank
    - In: none
    - Out: none
    State3: Combustion (thrusters or generator)
    - In: Oxygen and Hydrogen
    - Out: Energy, Water and Heat

    Even if the process would be perfect and produce no heat, we would still end up with less or equal energy than at start.
    The only possible way I can think of to actually get more energy from hydrogen than you put in to produce it would be to use a nuclear reactor to split the H atoms. But I don't even know if it's possible.
    edit: forgot about oxygen
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  6. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    From already working fuel cell ? :tu:

    Edit for your 200%.
    2x more what you get from electrolysis 2x 50 = 100% Thats why did i highlight thermodynamics :tu: ( meybe it was bad/hard to understand joke :D )

    But seriosly: it was theory from thermodynamics and thermodynamics only, where people tought they will creat infinite energy :D Thats why i did post it.

    In real i would go for 4 phase thermochemical reaction... to creat hydrogen/oxygen but you need chemikals we dont have in game. But efficiency this time is really 52%+
    ( I hope no one will continue write how you put more energy in making hydrogen then you get from hydrogen. )
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  7. Bumber Senior Engineer

    You're depleting one cell in order to make a new one, at 52% efficiency?

    No doubt the working cell was charged by a never-ending chain of other, increasingly powerful cells.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  8. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    From game perspective we are many years in future ;), batteryes have unrealistic capacity ( no input out put limitations ) and solar panels have unrealistic input in all situations, just because you aim them on sun. What is strange when electrolysis get bost too ? ( NERF oxygen generator topic is coming ? ) ??? it consume only 330kW on big ship and 100kW :tu:
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  9. Bumber Senior Engineer

    They used to be realistic, then were buffed. Still, they at least get energy from somewhere.

    My alternative suggestion to this thread:
    Large hydrogen fusion reactors and portable battery packs.
    Fusion reactors would be too heavy for moving ships, but generate power from hydrogen. Or maybe they just don't work on non-static grids, due to overheating, and the components aren't excessively heavy.
    Battery packs replace the battery components in ship batteries, acting as a refillable inventory item instead. They can refill suit battery.
    (I'm certain both of these have been suggested before.)
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  10. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

    oh yes +1 for the battery inventory item!!!!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    What i suggest is hydrogen engine/generator and you get energy from hydrogen.... this off-topic how you get hydrogen start sioxernic. ( totaly pointles when we have oxygen generator in game separating ice )

    fusion reactors > nuclear reacotor if fusion reactors did work correctly + no idea how will you limit use on space ships ( weight wil not stop players to create energy from hydrogen ) and there was many topics about it...

    + you basicaly suggested same think i did, just call it diferent name, because it will consume hydrogen and creat energy same like orginal idea... ( but your version will be big+heavy and unpractical. )
  12. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    I am not saying SE shouldn't be further developed, there is just a little different.
    You start with a battery, and if you don't, you could still have solved your issue by having 0.01 kg of Uranium in a separate container. Plan ahead.
    Kind of a lie.
    One Battery = 15 minute minimum run time
    Two Batteries = 15 minute minimum run time

    Just because you double the output does not necessarily mean you double the run time.
    If you want 2x more energy, you have to do what I already mentioned. Methane to Hydrogen production.

    Also @SaturaxCZ should I start saying you spam the same stuff over and over again with 100% less logic?
    Because you did that to me, and I think that was rather rude for no reason.
  13. Levits Senior Engineer

    Things to consider for the current AND potential of adding a fueled power source to the game:

    Current methods:
    Reactor: Small reactor requires uranium. Which requires mining this ore, Which requires finding this ore underground, which then requires a drill to harvest, which more than likely requires you to transport this material (but who's kidding anyone, you'd have your mobile base doing most of the work so no stationary base needed), which then requires you to drop this material via connector or collector, that is tied to a refinery, that is tied to an even larger power source, which then spits this refined material out after a while, which you then recycle back into the reactors to continue power things. Good news is, it provides enough power to run anything and everything. Bad news, you will eventually harvest the finite amount of uranium in any given area. <so keep moving.

    Solar: You place this very large (surface area of 2x1x4) onto your vehicle. Now you have just enough power to run the rotors and wheels (and whatever else might run off it. But wait, now you are in the shadows of a hill, or want to burrow underground, or night comes... output drops to nothing... wait 12-24 hours (in-game) for sun to reach your position again.

    Battery: Build battery (3x2x3 space and 1000 or 5000kg) onto your vehicle. Starts off with enough power to do anything. Can provide enough power to run anything for a few minutes (even your large-ship refinery). Will run a wheel or rotor-based vehicle for hours. Then... you need to charge it (maximum input of which is 1.5mw for small and 4mw for large). Which requires you to plug it in for several hours (in-game and possibly in real-time <depending on charging method) if/when you need to recharge it to maximum.

    Battery + Other 2 sources: Battery + solar and/or Reactor. Combine any of the previous requirements and descriptions. Battery and solar now requires a total of 5x3x7 block spaces plus an even longer charging time without adding more solar panels. Battery and reactor now requires all infrastructure of the previous reactor and the charging time of the battery since small reactor (which is a 1x1x1 block for small) only outputs 100kw for small-ship version and large-ship variant 5mw.

    Now hydrogen:
    Requires 350kw to create hydrogen via oxygen generator (1x1x2) and stored in a hydrogen fuel tank (which at present is friggin' massive <needs smaller one). The source of hydrogen currently is obtained via Ice and/OR could be obtained through absorbing moisture from the air, or water from underground aquifers (of which both are infinitely in abundance on Earth-class planets).

    From the air is far simpler; but the output would be beyond minimal. So, to acquire enough to actually be of use, you'd have to dig down deep enough to reach the aquifer. Doing so also opens up the potential to include Geothermal power sources for stationary bases. This would be your constant and continuous power source for running your equipment (or you could setup pure solar and/or solar and battery systems). <in the end it would be a reason (and specific reason at that) to actually build a stationary base (currently we have no reason other than personal choice and even then it is a waste of material when you leave it behind for space or to travel elsewhere. <"been there, done that."). This is your Infrastructure to support the production of your fuel. It can be placed on planets and (in unique situations) in space. Hydrogen is not rare and you don't have to worry about harvesting it all as you eventually do with Uranium (<which should be reworked as there is far too much of the stuff at present).

    Now utilizing it for vehicles:
    With infrastructure (or your ships hydrogen/oxygen systems in place), you still have to dock to refuel any vehicle or spend time converting ice/water into hydrogen. If your vehicle self-sustains it's own supply, it must have ample power from other sources to do so and take time (either on the move or stationary) to refill it's supply. If you use a facility for continuous production, the time it takes to refill your large-ship and small-ship designs is drastically reduced to only a minute or so (tops). The output for the generator is 2/3rds that of the input of the Generator (300-ish kw). So, for a small 1x1x1 fuel-cell block, 150-200kw <reaching 30-50% efficiency (still provides more than that of the small-ship, small nuclear reactor). But lets say that we lower that to even 50kw; and it still functions to provide ample power to wheels and rotors and to run hydrogen thrusters. The runtime/fuel-time of which is based on the tank reserves equipped on your vehicle.

    In the end, you'd only need a hydrogen tank and one hydrogen-powered generator (fuel-cell or otherwise). Fuel tank options could be anywhere from the current 3x3x4 massive tank, to a 1x1x2 small tank. This (using the smallest variants) gives you a total of 1x1x3 space for powering ground vehicles (larger tank, or multiple smaller tanks for anything that flies (as flight-time is dependent on fuel-reserves) with ample time to get work done and without having to hunt down material (uranium) or setting up a solar recharging station that only works during the day. You could even have a world where one side is constantly dark and still manages to power the base and hydrogen-production equipment (with geothermal power as it's source).
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  14. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Now you did only prove what i write all time about you is true, because that text did continu and i did explain it. So you didnt read the rest of it, or didnt understand it like normal :tu:
    ( bacause it was joke about thermodynamics and how did they calculate 100% effectiveness :) )
  15. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    This whole idea seems "cool and all" but it requires additional blocks to be added for it even to make real sense, which I don't agree with.
    So let's say we go with your Geothermal idea to supply power, this would be the only reason I could agree with (in your example here) to use Hydrogen rather than just stick to batteries.
    This would allow you to transport hydrogen from down there to the surface. (Although I dislike this setup, it requires nothing but time invested, dig deep, get power? And also infinite resource points, not really that interested) as you need to dig down, how would you make this setup more or less efficient in terms of power generation?
    That's what makes Solar Power interesting to me, is you have to do something to make it more or less efficient.

    But if you look at Solar, you do not need any transport infrastructure and you can just charge directly where ever you want. You can also transport Battery power, albeit with a loss.
    I mean nothing you just mentioned (beyond faster "charge" time, as I repeatedly state and of course infinite ice) is not already possible to do, albeit less efficiently.
    Limitless Power Generation: Solar Cells + Batteries
    Power Transfer: Battery to Battery
    Power Transfer almost lossless: Battery pack that can be disconnected and moved

    What you are adding on the other hand is:
    Limitless Fuel

    I don't see this as a bad thing, especially as for most conventional setups one single vein of Uranium (that you deplete completely) is enough to last a single player several months.
    So all of this is predicated on massive changes to the game, not just small tweaks, if I understand correctly? This would require a Total Overhaul level of balancing of the entire game.

    Infinite Resources to me is a no-go, no mattert he resource
    What you describe is more efficient as a Small Reactor setup (1x1x1 to power anything small), so I am still unsure what your setup gives that any other setup doesn't?

    *Personally removed out of respect for Rule 11 and 12*
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
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  16. Dan2D3D Moderator

    Hi Guys!

    Please read the forum rules 11 and 12, respect other members opinion and again try not to point others : ''You are, you said, he is, he said''

    Add your feedback and respect others please.
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  17. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Its joke, when you dont know what im writing about its diferent story, but not because of my poor gramar. ( specialy when text that explain it was copy --> pass and you again didnt read +i didnt write it. ) ;)

    How you call some one who write again and again same think without new arguments ? How many times did we read: hydrogen generator/engine + fuel cells are same like battery and no one can change it ( thats your solution you force on all ) + You did make off-topic from my suggestion, because you can not comprehend, why is it not same like battery... and when some one tell you why not, you only write again: its like battery... 3 people did try explain it to you. :tu:

    I have no idea how did they make you stop in other topics, or if all just leave. I will try find you old topics, where you did write about it.

    I respect opinions of all people on forum all years/time, but when he just spam same think again and again its spaming + he write absolute off-topic from moment he did come on this topic and it have nothink to do with normal discusion.
  18. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

    What I don't understand, @SaturaxCZ , is how your suggestion in the OP expands gameplay, provides engineering opportunities, or enriches the SE experience in some other way. Keep in mind that you should justify your proposal in terms of mechanics already in the game (power sources?).

    As for thermodynamics, SE chucked that into a perpetually burning dumpster fire long ago.
  19. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    I can try explain it more:
    *For power sourse i want use Hydrogen ( we already have in game, from oxygen generator )
    *It will allowe player creat energy, when he dont have other sources + create constructions without batteryes.
    *Every one creat oxygen to breathe with oxygen generator, but not all prefer hydrogen ships/thrusters and this is good way to use it and not waste it.
    *You can see ice/water on planets/moons without ore detector from distance and player dont have count on luck, when he search for uranium, or build solar panel with low energy output. he can be on place where solar panels will not work and uranium is rare. Ice and water is almost everywhere to use, if not you can still use solar power, uranium power.
    *Its potential power source we for some reason ignore in game.
    *Energy output fit perfectly between uranium reactor and solar panels. ( so we dont have to low energy output, or big energy output )

    I dont remove any element of game. All can be balanced in time... i personaly think: solar panels and batteryes work to good to be realistic and uranium reactor can creat more power and hydrogen generator/engine is perfect midle way.
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  20. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Oxygen Generators produce (as I have mentioned in the past) EITHER Oxygen or Hydrogen, NOT both. Every tick it consumes Ice and then it produces either O or H to be specific. At no point does it produce both, so nothing is wasted.
    Uranium is not hard to find, it is consumed at the moment in such small quantities that it is basically a non-argument. You get one ore detector, spend five minutes on a planet and you have enough uranium to last you a few weeks.
    So does Batteries and Small Reactors, they are the medium tier power source you are describing.
    Also there is no distinguishing factor between a small reactor and your proposed idea, actually small reactors would straight up be better, as uranium consumption is so low. Unless we wanna do a complete 100% rebalance of power generation.
    Fair argument, you are describing your own personal opinion and want, on the other hand it is as equally valid as my opinion: It shouldn't be in the game as I don't feel it fits in / it treads on the role of other blocks.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  21. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    1.It creat hydrogen and oxygen at same time. ( there was even topics you did participate in, why is beter name for oxygen generator ---> electrolyser, etc... )
    2.If you have ore detector and can move it, you may/may not find uranium = risk. (+ it can be balanced in time like all else to make uranium more rare )
    3. Again spaming about batteries... beteries dont creat energy from hydrogen = falshe argumen. It will not solve problem with unused hydrogen or overproduction of hydrogen.
    4. Then find topic about oxygen generator and write: why you dont want them creat hydrogen, you write off-topic here, because main point is how use hydrogen and change it in energy, not why we have hydrogen in game.

    Your only argumen you write again and again ( spaming ) in diferent forms is this time: So does Batteries and Small Reactors, they are the medium tier power source you are describing.
    Generator is power source... when you put in uranium you get energy, but battery only store energy you did create from diferent source put it in battery and creat nothink, thats true you ignore from start. ( probably on purpose, but i dont see what you try to achive: reduce informations about hydrogen like fuel?, you hate hydrogen cars?, or just problem with created CO2 when you creat hydrogen from gas ?,... really i have no idea what you try to achieve... )
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  22. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Okay, I am going to spam in your opinion:
    The Oxygen Generator does not convert 1 unit of ice into 1H and 2O.
    It converts 1 unit of ice into EITHER Hydrogen or Oxygen.
    Therefor there is no WASTE H or O being produced.
    Here is a bit of proof.
    Do not that the values vary between each of the three examples, but that seems to be due to imprecision in how Keen handles it, not that there is more production going on.
    The expected value of each filled tank (if oxygen generator produced 1H and 2O per H2O would be all containers would be filled equally. This is not the case, and instead we see the oxygen generator with 2 tanks connected produced less of each resource.
    Here is the proof: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=893181174

    If you have ore detector and can move it, you may not find IRON! Oh nooo.
    This is not an argument, especially since I can't remember the last time (on a planet) it took me more than 10 minutes to find Uranium.

    I didn't mention unused hydrogen or overproduction of Hydrogen, I don't see a problem either way.
    ALSO as I mentioned in point 1, you only have overproduction of Hydrogen if you decide to produce Hydrogen.

    I have not.... said that I don't want Oxygen Generators to produce Hydrogen. You are totally misrepresenting my position.

    I have already explained exactly why I don't like Hydrogen in Space Engineers as a power source.
    It would be like a battery. And Batteries ARE a power source, they just don't generate power, they contain power, but they are still a power source nonetheless.
    It is Energy Storage and there is no significant difference between using one or the other, in my opinion.
    But please, keep misrepresenting my position.
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  23. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    I will last time, because this is not normal... all you write only prove i waste my time and you didnt finish primary school. First you can not read H2O correctly because there are 2 parts of hydrogen, one of oxygen and you just separate them on H2 + O. ( ice is still water, just in diferent state, not with diferent chemical components how you did creat HO2? ) + you magicaly changing hydrogen to oxygen and back as you wish... totaly break all know rules ( until you want really use huge amount of energy recompositing atoms ( theoreticaly possible ))
    + you did creat that mod and it have nothink to do with reality... i can just rewrite numbers and it will work as i wish, but it will not not prove anything... same like you did prove anything now.

    You contradict yourself in one sentence and still dont see it like problem?: It would be like a battery. And Batteries ARE a power source, they just don't generate power, they contain power, but they are still a power source nonetheless.

    you did write: they just don't generate power ( battery dont creat energy and have nothink to do with suggested idea, where you creat energy from hydrogen ...thats for me end of this story )
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  24. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    In reality yes, splitting water produces both H and O, however in SE when ice is processed in the oxygen generator it only gives one or the other, he literally posted proof of that.

    Lets assume no particular medium here lets just do a little thought exercise:

    think of these 3 steps here:

    1) Input energy
    2) Store energy
    3) Output energy

    What do you think that is? most people would assume a battery, but in reality its what you've been saying... For GAMEPLAY purposes lets call it 3 seperate elements for a "battery" you need: "Input", "Storage medium", and "Output"

    Regular SE battery:
    Input = power from solar or reactor
    Storage Medium = Battery block
    Output = As needed from battery block.

    Now your suggestion:

    Input = power into Oxygen generator
    Storage Medium = Hydrogen tank
    Output = Hydrogen [power creation]

    What you are suggesting here, for GAMEPLAY purposes and game MECHANICS is exactly like a battery with a slightly more complex set up. I'm not sure if I can make this any clearer or not.
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  25. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    I like the Idea suggested in the OP.
    But I need to disagree when you say that you should get more energy from burning hydrogen than you have put in when creating it.
    Separating water into H2 and O is solely a way to store energy if you intend to burn it afterward.
    Id like to make an analogy:
    Let's say you made yourself an hydroelectric barrage. You would say it generate energy and now you want to use that energy to pump water back up the barrage.
    But you'll sadly discover that it does not produce more energy, The barrage only transform the potential energy of the elevated water into electric energy while pumping water up is only transforming your electric energy back into potential energy.

    Splitting Water is the same concept. To transform H2 and O into energy, you need to reunite them.
    H2 and O have the potential energy of their burning reunion. A generator would transform that energy into electric energy while the "oxygen generator" is transforming the electric energy into potential energy. There is no energy generation here.

    That said, It think it'd still be nice to use hydrogen fuel in some kind of cheap electric fuel cell for small rovers. Nothing magic but a good replacement for batteries that you could fill with your hydrogen bottle or connect to a hydrogen thank. It would make energy management a bit more varied and exiting on early games where you want to build a tiny rover without having to stick a 3x3x2 battery on it plus a 3x3x2 connector for charging.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    I don't think I typically have any trouble mounting batteries on anything as i usually don't make things small.... or meant to be scrapped later. i always build thinking forward on what I might need it for.

    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    If you want make it clearer come up with beter idea how use hydrogen and with minimal work for developers. :tu:

    + all parts of hydrogen set up is already in game, only missing block is one i suggest to make energy from hydrogen.
    + you must creat oxygen to live on places without oxygen and you will use energy on oxygen generator--->you did creat hydrogen/oxygen--->you will store it in tanks, when you dont use it--->???Lets store it for eternity without use???
    + specialy when some one use batteryes and not hydrogen thrusters, this is perfect way how change hydrogen on energy they can use.

    When he creat unrealistic mod its not prove... why we dont have nano constructing of ships ( there was mod for it ), or cloaking technology, energy shilds, etc... ( realistic right ? ).

    ------------------ Just exercise ------------------- keep optimal distance 1.000.000km from it --------------------------

    your exercise:
    You will all times input energy and then you can say about all we have in game: it work like battery ... even drilling ore...

    Input = power for drill ( mine uranium ore )
    Storage = conteyner
    Input rafinery = power change ore on uranium ingot
    Storage = conteyner
    Out put = reactor ( power creation )

    + it have 5 steps and not 3 ? it must consume soo much more energy, when none write numbers what a heresy.

    You just twist it like argument, when its realy not... i can start argument now, we dont need solar panels and battery ( we have already uranium ingots working like battery.... )

    ------------------ Just exercise ------------------- keep optimal distance 1.000.000km from it --------------------------
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Not a battery, you gain more power than you put in.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  29. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    That's grasping at straws at absolute best, you have to do the exact same thing for ice adding the two additional steps so that point it moot, and im willing to bet that you'll get a lot more energy out of 10,000 kg of uranium ore vs 10,000 kg of ice. (based on current game metrics)

    Also the ways reactors run in this game is they only use exactly as much fuel as needed, they don't constantly chew up the maximum amount.
    For all intents and purposes solar energy is basically free, problem is it's kinda hard to translate sunshine into uranium ingots.... huh... if only we had something that we could use to store the excess of power.... without first having to keep hundreds of tonnes of ice in storage so that we can electrolize it and store it in massive tanks so that we can burn it later... What would something like that be called? a flux capacitor? a Bio organic cellulite? no, no... what is it called? OH! Yes, it's called a battery. /sarcasm
  30. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Ok lets continue exercise....

    And when i compare 10000 of solar panels vs 10000uranium reators, i dont need to bet where i will get more power. ( based on current game )

    I have kinda problem get hydrogen in batteryes... sounds similarly ?
    If only i had somethink that create more power then usseles solar panels ( specialy at night ), but wait... why are this tanks full of hydrogen we can not use now ? So much stored unused power... to bad we dont have hydrogen generator in game :( its not like hydrogen tanks store hydrogen like battery and hydrogen generator can creat new energy from hydrogen... some people tought its the same and now we are out of power... ***** solar panes not working at night bug :munch:.
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