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Hydrogen engine / generator ( For vehicles on the surface of planets + Base)

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by SaturaxCZ, Oct 27, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    So, you don't have excess of hydrogen, therefor there isn't any difference between that and a battery.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    Mining uranium is different because the uranium ore itself already contain the potential energy of nuclear reaction.
    All the process around it is just to make it usable.
    What people are all saying is that the process you are proposing would simply compete with battery as an energy storage method (which is mostly true).
    @SaturaxCZ You need to describe, in a gameplay perspective, what kind of roles an hydrogen generator would fill that the battery don't. Or at leas, Show the pros and cons of using hydrogen vs batteries.

    * pros:
    - Single block
    - Simple to use
    - Small on large grids
    - More efficient
    * cons:
    - Big on small grids
    - Maybe lower energy density
    - Costly storage
    - heavy
    - Can need complex setup for charging

    * Pros:
    - The production can be separate from the consumption
    - Cheap storage
    - Generator could be small
    - Storage independent from consumption
    - Can be filed faster
    - Light
    - Could be filled by hand ( My personal suggestion )
    * Cons:
    - More complex (not a bad thing some people)
    - Less efficient (a lot)
    - Potentially explosive (if hydrogen thank where explosive)
    - Large setup for production, storage, consumption
    - Batteries where here first

    Maybe I missed some details but the idea is here.
    If there is enough different pros and cons. That would mean both methods could to coexist and split their roles and situations where one is better than the other. The choice of which to use would be a good engineering question.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Ok but lets decide how...
    So lets start be make baterryes and solar panels realistic ? ;) Or just use power of hydrogen we have now when you use it in thruster ? ( = instant lose for batteryes )
    Or you just want me compare real world hydrogen to sci-fi bettery so you can write its the same, like you guys do all time ?

    Show the pros and cons of using hydrogen vs batteries ----> On page 3 ( ME 10 Jin did ask me similar think )
  4. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    Batteries are OP. But that doesn't mean they are creating energy. That doesn't mean hydrogen should either.
    Producing hydrogen for consuming it later is energy storage, not production. If you can't accept this concept nor refute it then this discussion will never get anywhere.
    The only way hydrogen fuel cells would be a viable energy production would be if you could find natural hydrogen somehow and consume it. Otherwise, it's like drinking your own pee (you can't stay hydrated forever this way).
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    SE Batteries are a flat 80% efficient, they give back 80% of the energy that is put in.
    A Lithium Ion battery is 80-90% efficient.
    You can make a Lithium Ion Battery cell similar to the one in SE that would output the same amount of power, pretty sure you could get the discharge rate about the same.
    Yes, sci-fi battery.
    --- Automerge ---
    (Side note: This is kind of interesting as that makes the Battery the most realistic block in the game :woot: Lol)
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Does anyone else take popcorn?
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Also, Solar Panels. Before I go through the basic laymans maths here I can tell you that Keen BUFFED Solar Panels since they were producing so little power that people could not really use them for anything.


    And in space:
    300 W/m, so let us do the maths.

    120 kW for Large Solar panels (2x4 grid size which is 5m x 10m) and 30 kW for Small (5x10, 2.5m x 5m)
    Let us just for simplicity say that the entire filled dimension is a solar panel (I know they are slightly smaller) so the largest possible power output for a space born Solar panel in real life at the equivalent size is:
    300 W * (5m * 10m) = 15,000 = 15kW of power.
    300 W * (2.5m * 5m) = 3,750 = 3.75 kW of power.
    That means they are indeed roughly 8 times more efficient than a real solar panel (roughly as the entire surface area isn't solar panels on the SE blocks), but they were buffed quite significantly since a lot of people didn't like to place approximately a Death Stars surface area worth of Solar Panels to power their *refinery.
    *Mistyped it as Reactor, corrected now

    All of this is reliant on an equivalent star to the Sun and the same distance as well, which we can easily say that either it is an 8 times more powerful sun or we are significantly closer.
    Why say that? Your idea is still reliant on Solar Power to even get off the ground, and making Solar Panels realistic would make your idea worse as well as the batteries.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    I need somethink stronger with that popcorn pls :munch:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    *Pop Corn, selling Pop Corn, only a half Uranium Ingot for a small, 2 for a large, POP CORN, anyone?*
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    I'll just take a small. I'm on a diet.;)
  11. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    This is how much energy you must input, with all loses on way and its now, not + X years in future.

    I will translate it so you guys understand...
    product/effectiveness | extraction | crafting | logistic | compression / charging | total
    crue oil fuels 84
    hydrogen elektrolysis 17-20
    hydrogen reforming 43
    hydrogen thermochemical 30-33
    electric power ( for battery ) 27 - 31

    Meybe its time stop create energy for baterryes ? It have so low effectiveness :rocket:
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  12. Levits Senior Engineer

    So, what our brilliant mathematicians are saying is that we can all agree that hydrogen does not come from water (a resource that is a requirement for living things; such as the trees that exist on the Earth-class planet).
    We can agree that it is physically and scientifically impossible to convert hydrogen back into electrical energy, regardless of the inefficiency to create it.
    That we have everything the game needs with regards to power creation and distribution.

    That "just mod it" is the best course of action.

    Because it is impossible to do in SE.
    Because it would be the exact same thing as a battery... <Which they have failed to explain how other than it is a storage medium of energy. <Despite the fact that it is not what it is as much as how you go about collecting, creating, and using it. <something called "engineering" I think.

    And for all the math out there, Uranium is only formed from super nova, <how energy efficient would you say getting back a couple measly mw's of power from a super nova of all things can you compare to the cost of harvesting hydrogen? Just because you have to collect the fuel to begin with, does not mean that having it readily available and ease of use are not viable reasons for it to be utilized. Because in the end, any fuel source known to man is a storage medium for potential energy.

    In addition, what batteries in the game is the fact that they have a shelf-life that deteriorates after each recharge, That they eventually lose stored energy over time, And that after reaching below half or more drained energy, their life-span is cut in half, and add the cost of creating it (because they're not made with just silicon) <but it's a game, a game about using technology and concepts to build things... no, no. That's right is a modding and scripting game.

    So, since we already have a battery, there is no need to utilize any other source of power.

    I fear for the future of humanity in the real world as well as in this game if people have a potential power source they are unwilling to use because there is something (that they consider better) already doing the same job. <though I've never seen a battery being recharged by hydrogen in SE.

    An additional note: how easy would you say it is to transfer one batteries power to another on a separate grid? <because I know a hydrogen powered system would be particularly simple to accomplish this feat.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    No, that is not what I am saying.
    I would love to have this as a moddable option.

    (The stuff in the middle seems to be mostly ranting)
    Of course you do, also you are taking it to the extreme of extremes here comparing apples and oranges. We don't create supernova to produce Uranium (if we did that would be a horribly inefficient method of creating Uranium, of course).
    You need other sources of power, that is obvious, and I will never contest that, but adding another "Put power in, get less power out".

    Well, by this logic you are making here we should have: Oil Power, Methane Power, Ethanol Power, RTG's, Coal Power, Wood Power, Trash Power, Stirling Engine Power, etc, etc, etc.
    Because "if people have a potential power source they are unwilling to use because there is something (that they consider better)".
    Notice a few of these examples are rarely if ever used.

    Click Recharge on the Battery, done.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  14. Levits Senior Engineer

    You mod and script, I build. You and me are on the exact opposite extremes here. I don't want to have to rely on you to provide the content that this game should come standard with because I build using the things that the game provides directly; I don't want to rely on having my computer hooked up to the internet every time I want to play around with a design. If I want to add something that changes how something in the game functions or looks (glass), I'll give you a call.

    -Oil we don't need unless we want to add "petroleum-based material" to the list of available resources.
    -Methane is harder to acquire than hydrogen in space and on planets making it a less logical choice for using. But hey, it would work great on Earth-class planets and such.
    -Coal is replaced by uranium at this point with its unbalanced abundance.
    -Trash doesn't burn when it's made of iron <like 99% of everything we build is made from.
    -In addition, non of these that you just listed off the top of your head are currently in the game like hydrogen is.

    Hydrogen IS in the game, and IT CAN be converted back into electrical power as well as burned in thrusters and combustion engines. It's easy to find and harvest form the environment (especially on planets that host life). It's not hard to acquire, it requires the already established blocks in the game, and it adds numerous possibilities to other additions as well as reasons to build and what you can build.

    Then give us an example of some other source of power. One that can be utilized with the current systems and is "unique" in how it is acquired and can be used. One that is sustainable indefinitely once you've setup proper infrastructure, one that would give you a reason to build a stationary structure, one that takes up a small amount of space (1x1x1), one that provides just enough power to power rotors and wheels, and one that doesn't need too many additions to the game to bring it into play. <These are the things that this hydrogen fuel-cell/generator could do. If you have something else in mind that could accomplish this, then please let us all know.

    And to keep this going: And as for "clicking" recharge... how long are you sitting there waiting for your battery to recharge?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    And I build as well, what is your point? I also mod a little, but the majority of hours spent on SE has not in any way been related to personally modding.
    Also I shouldn't be reliant on adding mods to disable a vast amount of features because they are redundant / useless because I don't like them. Wow, look, the opposite view to yours where both of us would have the same solution, adding a mod.
    Also you know you can actually unzip those nice little mods right? And use them offline, right?

    So? Uranium is in the game, we need Nuclear Bombs.
    Magnesium is in the game, we need thermite.
    Etc. etc.
    Just because something is in the game and could potentially have a different use does not mean it HAS to be there.
    I find it completely fine that you want the idea into your game, but
    Let me go by these one by one, first let us establish your claims and requirements:
    1) Can be utilized with the current systems
    2) Unique acquisition
    3) Unique usage
    4) Indefinitely sustainable
    5) Reason to build stationary structures
    6) Take very little space
    7) Provide enough power to power rotors and wheels
    8) Doesn't need many additions

    Now let us check off which of these that Hydrogen Reactor would actually check off.
    [X] 1) Any power source could be utilized with the current systems, this is a void requirement as it basically asks: "Does it work"
    [ ] 2) Is uniquely acquired? Well Hydrogen is not uniquely acquired, it is mined like any other material, stuffed into a block, so not unique in any way.
    [ ] 3) Not unique usage. Depending on your definition, Hydrogen can be used for two things (if this idea passes) making it a non-unique usage, or if we go by the other example: Not unique either, you stuff something into a reactor and power comes out, sounds like another block I have heard of... If I could just remember.
    [ ] 4) Hydrogen is not indefinitely sustainable, there is limited Ice around.
    [X] 5) Doesn't inherently give you a reason to build a stationary structure as resources deplete, unless you go to an ice moon, I guess that could count as permanently stationary, so what the heck, let's give you this point.
    [ ] 6) Yes, you have a 1x1x1 block that requires at least more blocks as a tank, oh and you will most likely also need a connector, and if you can feed it hydrogen bottles then.... It... is... definitely... not... unique... It... is... just... a... small... reactor... that... functions... like... a... battery...
    [X] 7) Any power source in the game currently does this, even solar panels during day time.
    [ ] 8) Well, considering if you actually want the Hydrogen here to actually do all of the stuff you mentioned above properly, then it would require inclusion of at least 3 more blocks beyond the addition of the Hydrogen.

    Dude, you are making it sound like Hydrogen is like this holy grail of SE that will solve all of it's gameplay issues because it is just that unique (I know that is not what you are saying). It is not, it is not a super interesting mechanic by any measure.

    I would rather see unique "components" being found that can only build that one block, something that is a more specialized sidegrade of a current block, only capable of being found through exploration. This gives an incentive to explore, which is what a lot of topics has been about. THIS is the way to expand game mechanics, not just throw random arbitrary new blocks at people, give people a reward for going out there, make something that is actually worth trading.

    Also I can't think of a good new power source, that doesn't mean Hydrogen as a power source is a good one.
    Usually approximately 0 minutes as meanwhile I will do something productive on my base, load up resources, manage refineries, sort my inventories, prepare production chains, etc. Oh shit, you can turn a little bit of waiting time into productivity? DAMN, I forgot we are living in the age of instant gratification and we have to take off immediately after we have unloaded our shit, I forgot we have to play super serial and super efficiently to be able to enjoy this game, and I also completely forgot that if we are not willing to wait that time there are other power sources available that does not require a charging time.
  16. Levits Senior Engineer

    So... you're pretty much stuck there having to do other things instead of taking off and continuing on your way. Got it.

    Hydrogen I could easily stop for a minute, lock to the connector, do whatever little thing I needed to in the terminal, and then jet off. Base would be running itself so I don't have much to worry about.

    ...wait... sort inventory... is that actually fun? always considered that rather tedious and is the reason why I use sorters.

    You are looking at this entire setup through a keyhole. Broaden your horizons.
    2, 4, and 5: go hand in hand. With proper additions (which this game does still need even in beta) collecting hydrogen can be accomplished from other sources other than just ice.
    3: I know of no other fuel source in the game that has the potential of hydrogen.
    6: is a moot point. You don't have to use connectors. And what made you think that you could feed this system hydrogen bottles?... but good idea there. I'll keep it in mind.
    7: that's what a power source is. It provides power (specifically a small amount of electrical energy) when you need it preferably. Pretty much what this conversation is all about?
    8: Actually, it does not. Just 1. The other additions would and have their own suggestion forum.

    Oh, of course not; but hydrogen is a fully capable, explainable, and sustainable source of power either for kinetic thrust and/or to create electricity. Besides, SE still needs a heck of a lot more to it. There's still plenty of other suggestions that can be added to make playing it more enjoyable and to give purpose and choice to players and designs.
  17. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    How else would you feed hydrogen onto it then?
    Like... what?
    And if we only implement this, then 8) is still invalid.
    Again, not sustainable. It is as sustainable as Hydrogen for Thrusters are, which is something that runs out constantly.
    More to it != add new blocks that are analogous to current blocks.
    Add new interesting mechanics of gameplay, add modifiers, hazards, enemies, more environmental stuff, etc. That will add much more to SE than a few little thematic blocks.
    --- Automerge ---
    A few examples of additions that actually make the game do something different:

    As a few examples.

    These modify the way the game is played, and modifies the way you could potentially build your ships to avoid/take advantage of these changes.
    THAT is adding new interesting things to the game.
  18. Levits Senior Engineer

    Using advanced rotor heads, piston heads, grinding your ship (or whatever) free after it has been filled, and merge blocks.

    8 is "to actually do all of the stuff you mentioned above properly". If you mean the infrastructure setup, then yes. But to create electricity from hydrogen, the only block that needs to be added is the fuel-cell/generator. Again, the infrastructure (if that is what you were referring to) is a separate matter that is covered in another suggestion thread.

    And can be easily resupplied at proper facilities with zero input from the player after, and if they so desire to, spend the time setting up the proper infrastructure to create it. <which will take less than 15 minutes to recharge/refill (actually less than 1 minute).

    You continue to compare the one single thing. You still neglect to mention the variations and differences between them. Try it out for a change. Give it some thought as to what you might be able to do that is different.

    But in the end, Yes. It's going to do the same thing. Do you still dislike the fact that the devs have added two different doors to the game? Or two different types of armor block? Antenna's and Laser antenna? Were you so against their inclusion because they do the exact same thing that the previous version did?

    Couldn't agree more. +Hydrogen Fuel/cell.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Wouldn't a fusion reactor be a better use of hydrogen in terms of energy produced?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Levits Senior Engineer

    Fusion is another possibility (and one that might eventually enter into the game if the Devs plan on including a progression system of some kind), but those reactors would be heavy and very large compared to the fuel-cell. The design could not be shrunk down and they would be as large if not larger (or at the very least 10 times heavier) than the hydrogen tank in the end.

    Great as a high-output, sustainable energy source. But only really viable for large ships and/or stationary structures.

    Also (unrelated to game-play elements), though hydrogen is a potential (and "promising") gas to use in the process. The actual elemental choice is still up in the air. They've done tests but they've not yet got it going continuously (at least as far as I know). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion Seems the best candidate so far is Boron and hydrogen to create helium...
  21. Bumber Senior Engineer

    You can do that with a battery, too. Using merge blocks allows you to bypass the ship recharge time.
  22. Levits Senior Engineer

    One of the big problems with that is that you are dedicating an entire 3 blocks wide by 3 blocks long by 1 block high for the merge block.

    Plus the additional merge block for the other side. bringing this up to a 3x3x2 block area.

    Plus the battery that stands at 3x3x2 on its own. totaling now: 3x3x4 blocks worth of space.

    Now times this by two, because if you are going to quick-recharge your ship or fighter, you cannot very well strip it's power from it.

    So a grand total of 6x6x8 blocks of space for the power system. Even larger than the large version of the large reactor for small ships and the process requires you to drop off one battery, and then pick up another one.

    Large ships are a different matter of course. With large ships, it would only require 6 blocks minimum to accomplish this. 2 merge blocks (on either side) and a battery in the middle. But you have to have 2 in order to maintain power to your ship.

    Hydrogen via the preferred method of refueling would only require 1 connector (a 3x3x2 space block) and then the single fuel-cell to provide the power. The fact that you will likely have fuel remaining (because you'd drop like a stone if you run out of gas anyways) means that you do not have to stop providing power to your craft at any time. It's available power remains 100%; instead of being cut 50% as having to switch out batteries would result in.

    Now, if you want to build a quick charge station, that's a different matter and I'm all for it. Even made one myself. But it requires the use of pistons, merge blocks, and rotors. To connect to the battery/batteries, disengage them, pull them back, move them out of the way, bring the fresh battery into position, push it towards the ship, and then merge it to the ship before it can take off again. <fun enough to build and work on, but totally impractical in any way if there is a fight or if you are even slightly moving. Klang does not agree with my methods. And this is assuming that space is not a concern. (<On a ship (and not a station) this is a problem as having this sort of thing built on a ship is not exactly small. Certainly would take up more than a single large hydrogen tank and connector). <unless you use the rotor trick to make it via the small-grid. But that's still a pain.

    In addition, the design of that facility is very specific. Either you have to build your ships battery array very specifically for every build so that the facilities machinery can accurately retrieve and replace the batteries, or you have to setup different docking pads for the different ship designs you create. With the hydrogen however, the only thing you need to design around is the connector port (or whatever method you prefer).

    Just thought about it: but you could cut the merge blocks out of the battery replacement layout by using rotor heads instead. <but that doesn't exactly change much in the way of the process of things.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  23. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    @Levits I haven't keep up super close with this thread but aren't you currently trying to use blocks that don't actually exist yet to justify your creation vs batteries? You assume if they add the generator they'll just make a smaller tank. But I figure on small grid you've got your 3x3x2 connector + 5x5x5 tank + however big the generator is. While somewhat volumetrically smaller (according to you) than the power system you proposed, it can be made smaller using rotors instead. And you also made an error in your math. (3x3x4) x 2 does not equal 6x6x8, that's quadrupling capacity.

    Each battery occupies 36 blocks volume (with the two merge blocks) even tripling the batteries is still smaller than a hydrogen tank (strictly by volume 108 vs 125)

    Id also like to point out based on the title of the thread and the OP this is specifically a suggestion for ground based vehicles. The way SE currently works power consumption is so negligible on even super massive grids (ground vehicles) that you should honestly never run out of power on a single battery. A solar panel can sustain a vehicle driving, with any excess going in to charge a battery when idle.

    Lastly, I haven't specifically tried to do so, but I'm sure I could make a battery swapper in under the volume of a large grid hydrogen storage tank that you'd need to keep on your base to refuel vehicles.
  24. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Complains about lack of features / complexity in the game.
    Argues about a new gameplay feature that would severely limit complexity in the game, and remove some nuance from designs.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Levits Senior Engineer

    Tank size is very likely to be reduced at some point. It's far too large and everyone knows it. But true, we can assume that it never changes. So the 5x5x5 tank remains.

    That piece is a guarantee for anything that runs on hydrogen thrusters. It's part of the design of the vehicle itself and cannot and will not be removed from it as it is an integral part in the ships ability to function. Ground vehicles on the other hand would very much require (not necessarily though) a smaller tank to consider building one to run off of hydrogen power.

    The batteries do not function off of the same system as the hydrogen. They require completely separate methods of material, recharging methods, and output. Whereas batteries are universally the most common power source for anyone (aside from the massive reactor), they require extensive recharge times. Hydrogen on the other hand (regardless of how it's obtained) can provide power directly from itself to power any vehicle while it has fuel. Essentially what we have in SE currently is a jet or helicopter that you have to plug in on top of refueling it.

    What this addition does is it specifically adds to the hydrogen-powered craft (ground-based vehicles too would benefit from it but it's most going to be noticeable in space and air-craft). Its closest real-world equivalent would be an alternator that you'd find in any helicopter, jet, and car (again we have to plug in our jets in the game right now). Running off of the fuel to provide electrical energy to create a system/vehicle that does not have to deal with the hassle of batteries or uranium.

    And solar energy only works 1/2 the time on planets or less if you use that vehicle in shadow. In addition, the sun is a great source of energy, but it's not always guaranteed to work. <we still have possible weather phenomenon or planetary environments (really thick, cloudy environments) to think about possible additions.

    This debate aside, I would really be interested to see what you come up with.

    And you want to change the rate of refinery speed on planets for some reason just to promote building bases on (correction: just to actually return to) planets... Not like anyone has put out any suggestions or potential additions that would promote one to build permanent bases on them or anything. This one block is part of a system. Again, broaden your view of additional features down the road.
  26. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    dammit man this is turning so complicated.....................

    oh look these examples even have mods.
    wonder how hard it could be to take a uranium reactor
    copy it and rename it to be hydrogen reactor change it using uranium for ice?

    never the less

    lets throw geothermal energy into the mix another reason to be on planets...use their geotherminal energy to create power for you! :D

    and for another barrel of laughs...manual dynamo treadmill power generation.
    pretty nice to build an arc furnace and slap a treadmill on the side to refine some iron quickly.

    the only way treadmill could be more realistic is if our beloved engineer had stamina and needed rest to slowly recover that engineer if the helmet is off..otherwise stamina could be greater breathing all that space machine made o2 with the hint of adrenaline to keep him going.
  27. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    This is a good point, this can be used to argue for hydrogen thrusters to produce power, which I wouldn't be against, (as long as there is some level of input power to start the thruster).
    And it is not like many of those additions that people have suggested was just one new block that gave infinite resources? *Hint hint*

    Just sayin'
  28. Levits Senior Engineer

    That would be via the hydrogen fuel-cell. Gas goes in, gets converted to electrical energy which provides that power to start the hydrogen thruster and No battery or reactor needed to provide initial power source.

    A ship or ground vehicle that runs specifically off of hydrogen.

    As for the topic of infinite resources, which ones are you against? Uranium being made manifest that it exists in such extremes that one vein can quite literally support you for an entire year both in the game and in real-time?

    At least one fuel source in the known universe does exist in infinite amounts and with simple to harvest and refine means.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    I did realy like that idea, when you dont have hydrogen in vehicle tank, use hydrogen from bottle to refill hydrogen tank in vehicle :tu: ( kinda like fuel canister )
    No idea how big is capacity of bottle and how long will vehicle run + meybe make full bottle from inventory automaticaly refill hydrogen tank.
  30. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    No fuel source in the known universe does exist in infinite amounts.
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