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I missed the Survey, so here are my thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by FatsackTony, Dec 15, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. FatsackTony Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    Damn, I missed the survey. But I think there are several viable directions you could take your studio.

    1. Make sequel to both medevil and space engineers, where you start naked with no inventory, and progress through primitive, bronze age, medevil, classical, industrial, information age, space age, genetic/cybernetic/AI age, energy manipulation age technologies and tech trees.

    2. Improve GAMEPLAY mechanics and game design. You have GREAT SIMULATIONS, now you need better movement, climbing, parkour, shooting mechanics, abilities (spells/technologies) system, npc's AI, enemy diversity and design, story, narrative, and quest systems integrated. Massively increase the number of different resources, items, tools, parts, blocks. Create NPC economy you can interact with based on these new assets. Basically work on the motivation, discovery, role play, survival and maneuverability of the series. Make it a GAME now instead of an amazing SIMULATION.

    3. Continue advancing and improve physics simulation. i.e. Planet Orbits, long distance gravity effects on massive objects, moving asteroids, fluids, aero/hydro dynamics, gas giants, black holes, super novae, quasars, nebulae, thermal management, EM shielding/radiation management. (use Universe Simulator for inspiration).

    4. Add more engineering and science based gameplay and challenges. This could go two directions:
    a. Micro-engineering: Let us actually engineer the blocks themselves and make choices on geometry, mechanics, stats, material cost, production, and design of the blocks and parts of the ships and buildings. (i.e. look at what Dual Universe is doing)
    b. Create more environmental challenges to overcome (ties into #2 and #3), give us the abilities/tools/blocks to design craft and machines for plunging into Stars, Gas Giants, Nebulae, Neutron Stars/Pulsars, Black Holes, and other extreme environments like extremem heat and cold (Venus or Europas sub-surface oceans) and extract special resources there with special tools, that we can use to move onto the next challenge/resource.
    c. Colonization Gameplay: Give us NPCs or populations (could be represented numerous ways) where our mission is Pioneer the Frontier of the Solar System and space and build factories/farms/housing/defenses and other infra-structure (medical/scientific/military) for a civilization that is expanding out into space.

    5. Antagonist (no, Clang doesn't count): The game lacks any time pressure. Survival has no reason to hurry, no time pressure, no real impetus or fear that drives you to achieve greater and greater heights. Voiced npc communications, story, events, attacks, enemies that you know are looking for you, working against you, and seeking to stop you and that they're out there and gaining ground every minute on you, will drive the player to grind, invent, and achieve more. Currently there is no emotional motivation in the game other than finding out what blocks can do.

    6. Focus on multiplayer and expanding multiplayer capability. Alot of gameplay and such will naturally emerge out of a crowded gamezone with finite resources. Could also add interesting unique points of interest and events like Rust has.

    I would be happy and most likely willing to purchase a new game that goes in any of these directions.
     
  2. Spaceman Spiff Junior Engineer

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    837
    Survival scenarios can add a time pressure. I've build several that do just that. Drop a player into an airless situation without an oxygen bottle and I guarantee you the clock is ticking. The same goes with power. But you need more that these starting situations. You need a goal, and most people who build "survival" maps don't give the player a goal. The Escape from Mars map was delightful to play because the player had an ultimate goal, and so I've always built my survival maps with goals. To "survive" just isn't enough, because once the player has oxygen (if required) and power, the rest is just empire building. Anyway, this is just my 2ยข worth...
     
  3. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    748
    I managed to get in on the survey (pays sometimes to actually read the junk emails from game developers I know)

    My big recommendations and up votes revolved around "more interactions with players in PvE" via NPC's, Faction conflicts that actually involve/interact with the player. Basically to "just plug Exploration Enhancement Mod Factions and Corruption Mod NPC interactions"
     
  4. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,546
    Here's the thing from my perspective. SE, in it's current state, provides the "raw material" players need to create their own game. @Sektan's recent Moon Project mod collection is pure proof. As a player I can construct scenarios using his mods and mix in anything else that works for me. This is why I believe Keen should focus on fundamental game issues such as pressurization* and grid issues and less on providing players with an incentive to play. I think any incentive to play that is provided by the game should only exist to inspire the player to develop their own "reason to play", and the game should make it less tedious to do so.

    For instance, I'm perfectly fine working within the "current technology extrapolated 60 years" constraint established by Keen, and I endeavor to play the game within those constraints, even though Keen has violated those constraints by introducing artificial gravity and jump drives for the sake of making the game more bearable. Neither one of those technologies will be an off-the-shelf item in 2077, and I don't think the game would have suffered if they had not been introduced. Other players, on the other hand, are clearly not happy with a science-fiction game that doesn't come standard with artificial gravity, warp/slipspace fast travel, energy shields, energy weapons and nanobots. But, just as you can now lay railroad tracks in Medieval Engineers (!), you can have out-of-context assets in your SE game if you want them.

    It's apparent that players with the time to invest can come up with some remarkable things that work within SE's framework. I'm curious to see what both Keen and Modders can ultimately squeeze out of the current game, and that should become the starting point for the next game.




    *I know. Pressurization is getting attention. I just used it as an example of a "fundamental" issue.
     
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  5. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,546
    Something was bugging me about my initial post and it took me a while to put my finger on it. If I have any real beef with Space Engineers, it's the way the game is presented to the player. It is touted as a game that takes place around 2077. After all these years they have not moved from that position. Aside from the Artificial Gravity/Mass and Jump Drive blocks, everything standard (vanilla) in the game lives up to the 2077 engineering standard. However, we seem to be in a different Universe, and some things don't seem to make sense. I'm not talking about the lack of orbital mechanics or the fact that the Sun revolves around the planets. I get why that happens and it's not a deal breaker. My problem is that I figured this game would be primarily about asteroid mining, and that mining would take place in our asteroid belt in our Solar System. I figured we would play the game by colonizing the belt; something along the lines of what happened in "The Expanse."

    It appears that the player base is not interested in being in space using 21st Century technology. Movies, TV shows and comic books have taught us that in space you need shields, energy weapons, and instantaneous travel times. We need energy weapons to make ships blow up with one hit. We need shields so that our ship doesn't get blown up in one hit. We need instantaneous travel so that we can sneak up on someone, blow up their ship and escape before they knew what hit them or, we need to be able to get away if we get sneaked up on. If there was one over-arching thing about SE that players seem to have a problem with, it's that the technology has not reached the Star Trek level, and the things that define Star Trek level: transporters and warp drive, are things that exist in the scripts purely for production reasons, as in they save time by not having the viewer sit through realistic transit times, and the tech comes in handy when a plot gets too convoluted. None of the tech is ever explained and is definitely not in the stars, so to speak, in this century.

    Thing is, if one were to build a ship using standard (vanilla) blocks, one could look at it and say, "This could happen for real by 2077," provided they stay away from Jump Drives and Artificial Mass. Artificial Gravity could be accomplished using electrostatic adhesion, which is an actual current technology that doesn't need handwavery for explanation. What I like about SE is that if there was, in fact, a Second Great Space Race in 2029, by 2077 there would be ships and stations out there that would look a lot like what we make in SE (without mods ;)).

    That, however, does not seem to be the point for a lot of players. The solution seems to be having the next game take place in the 23rd Century or beyond so that no technology, no matter how outlandish, gets questioned by people like me. As long as the current version of the game endeavors to stick with the 21st Century, people will have problems with it. Therefore, bring on Space Engineers: The Next Generation.
     
  6. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    474
    The 2077 setting of the current Space Engineers is far more technology advanced than one might think, by implication. Medical Rooms? Even Star Trek doesn't instantly clone people when they're killed, apparently with memories intact (I suppose they could using transporter/replicator technology, but don't for ethical reasons. I am looking at you, Thomas Riker). For that matter, how is power transferred across a grid? How does one build something - anything, really - with just a welding torch? There's something going on, some technological phenomenon, which allows these wonders to happen.

    I'd guess all of SE technology is actually based on nanobots (not my original idea; I am sure I've read this on the forums somewhere at sometime). Trillions of the little critters live in every block we build (and build those blocks at our direction, using the "welder" and "grinder"), using set patterns and even altering things like color. And it's these nanobots that creates the connections to allow for distribution of power. With the recent air-tightness update, I imagine airborne nanobots are responsible for healing you automagically in pressurized environments.

    The existence of jump drives (and by extension, artificial mass) is implicit in the setting, regardless of year. How did we get to a new star system, otherwise?

    This is, of course, just fun speculation. The joy of SE is that it's a broad enough canvas upon which we can paint our own ideas. I like the fact that there's no deep lore* to the game. "Your mileage may vary," as the advertisers like to say, and that's a good thing. :)

    *EDIT: Adding... deep lore and a little narrative interaction, some quests or something in survival mode, are not mutually exclusive ideas. I hope we see the latter added in some form, DLC or otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  7. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    725
    We have today the 3D-printer technology. Isn't that pure science-fiction from view of a person who lives in, say, 1980? Creating threedimensional objects of a single plastic file. Also a sort of 'welding'. Project this into 2077 and you got the omnipotential 'welding torch'. :)
     
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,281
    It's oh, so much simpler than that, imo. The welder is a representation of the build process, not the actual process, same as the grinder. I don't accept that these tools will be this magically amazing even in the 2070-80's.
     
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  9. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,546
    @Malware is right. If the tools actually had the animations built in for assembling and disassembling they probably would have lagged the game which already had more than enough lag issues. Also it still wouldn't be realistic because no one would want to just stand there and watch an armor block be built piece by piece, much less a refinery or jump drive. We could very well have the sort of tech by 2077 that would allow the printing of parts that actually assist in the building process of the device they are becoming a part of, thus making the process much faster. Even so, I suspect it would take an hour to make just one armor block given the most reliable process likely to be in use by then.

    That's a level of realism I think we can skip ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    748
    Oh, you may be amazed at how quickly a 4.5" grinder with a Cutting wheel can utterly disassemble... anything. Even a "Cut proof" hardened steel padlock [I wholeheartedly do NOT endorse use of such a "Master Key"]. [too many video's to count: "$40 dewalt grinder vs $1000 padlock"] I wager a Family Sedan can be rendered down to hand carry-able parts in about an hour. Transmission, engine block and all.

    So while it may be an exaggerated abstract... its not as exaggerated as you may think. "Realistic" may be only x4 ridiculous is all.
     
  11. FatsackTony Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    They could expand on this part of the gameplay in survival. Make you actually have to trace lines with the hand welder and grinder to dismantle a block. Or us different tools for different components. Don't know how fun that would actually be though. I was always disappointed by the over-simplified crafting, constructing, mining, and refining. Could actually make it interesting and educational (learn about metallurgy while you play SE) with the Survival gameplay, but who knows. I wish things were broken down into constituent parts more when it came to engineering gameplay, sort of what Medevil engineers did.
    --- Automerge ---
    Mostly I just hope they work on gameplay. Like skill-based content like gun-play, more interesting and fluid movement (see Quake or Warframe), an in-depth NPC economy and economic events so you can be a merchant marine in space. Maybe some inter-faction drama and politics. Actual survival mechanics including hunger, thirst, medicine, mental health (insanity/morale). And somehow inject some X-Com style mystery and research. I fucking love reading the research and autopsies in X-Com.
     
  12. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    748
    But... but there IS crafting in this game.

    why- just today I Crafted a buggy that can literally rocket itself to space to mine platinum, return to earth, and drive around in hydrogen rocket style flames and glory! (cliffs and canyons are noooo prob, yo)
    ... and with blinky lights!
     
  13. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,281
    Yes, sure, because clearly a grinder at that size can cut out sensitive computer- and detector components, as well as individual nuts and bolts... and glass... all without destroying anything of it :p Yes, I think it's about "as exaggerated as I might think" :p
    I would have hated that :p They could expand on the refining and component factory process, sure, but the actual building is just fine as it is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  14. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    725
    Oh I can already hear the complaints of players: "This isn't supposed to be tiresome work! It's a game! I have that f****** grind in real life and want to relax while playing! Give us back our magic welders and grinders!"
     
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  15. Spaceman Spiff Junior Engineer

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    837
    [​IMG]
     
  16. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,256
    I had a mining buggy at one point also. Eventually, I crashed and burned with it. lol
     
  17. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    748
    [​IMG]
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1601019408

    Do. or Do not. There is no Learn.
    (sorry no wrapping paper or ribbon)
     
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  18. Spaceman Spiff Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    837
    Hey, that's one sweet ride!
     
  19. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,546
    might want to elaborate on this.

    how could they make movement more... interesting?

    I'm all for this in principle, but try to do this without being accused of copying those other games (or worse, actually just copying the other games). For the most part, Keen has managed to create a game that doesn't seem to be derived from any other known video game. SE's strength lies more on what you can build and less on what you look like when you move.

    SE is a building game with FPS elements. Shooters are dime-a-dozen and everyone seems to want every new game to be a shooter and then they compare it to Quake and Doom. I just hope all of Keen's "engineering themed" games feature engineering primarily and they don't try to lure players by making them seem to be a shooter.
     
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  20. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    474
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  21. Kertlund Trainee Engineer

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    4
    Damn, your views almost align with mine, almost exaactly what i want.
     
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