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Introducing the UC Trading Value System for MP

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by JamesL86, Mar 28, 2014.

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  1. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    1,091
    Attention: Massive rework in progress on the UC. This system does not reflect supply and demand currently, nor is it a variable system.

    I have been working on this for a good long while now... and I mean way before survival and MP came out. The following is the barter value I have established for everything from ore to ingots to components etc. The prices for ingots and components are calculated based on the amount of material needed to produce them.

    Prices from now on will always be calculated and rounded to the nearest hundredth to maintain a reasonable amount of accuracy without having too many digits behind the decimal.

    Now, without further delay, here is the Uranium Currency Trading Value System.

    04/01/14: Preliminary data concerning estimated supply and demand has been plugged into the existing formulas to update prices to a more realistic level. Note that for now, time has been removed from the calculations entirely until those formulas can be rectified.

    (Current supply/demand formula does not yet cover consumable only items. Thus Magnesium and Uranium calculations cannot be made properly. As such, they will continue to be kept at a base price of one for now. This is being worked on.)

    Ore Prices Per Kilogram:

    Uranium: ( 1.00 UC)
    Stone: 0.01 UC
    Iron: 1.77 UC
    Nickel: 0.9 UC
    Cobalt: 4.07 UC
    Magnesium: (1.00 UC)<em id="tinymce" class="mceContentBody " dir="ltr"></em>
    Silicon: 0.27 UC
    Silver: 0.59 UC
    Gold: 5.22 UC
    Platinum: 2.45 UC


    Ingot Prices Per Kilogram:

    Gravel: 0.01 UC
    Iron Ingot: 2.53 UC
    Nickel Ingot: 10.00 UC
    Cobalt Ingot: 2.25 UC
    Magnesium Ingot: (142.86 UC)<em id="tinymce" class="mceContentBody " dir="ltr"></em>
    Silicon Ingot: 0.39 UC
    Silver Ingot: 5.90 UC
    Gold Ingot: 52.20 UC
    Platinum Ingot: 490.00 UC
    Uranium: (142.86 UC)<em id="tinymce" class="mceContentBody " dir="ltr"></em>


    Finsihed Materials Price Per Unit:

    Construction Components: 22.77 UC
    Metal Grid: 17.71 UC
    Interior Plate: 8.86 UC
    Steel Plate: 55.66 UC
    Girder: 17.71 UC
    Small Tube: 12.65 UC
    Large Tube: 75.90 UC
    Motor: 104.26 UC
    Display: 19.20 UC
    Bulletproof Glass: 5.85 UC
    Computer: 5.30 UC
    Reactor Components: 67.55 UC
    Thruster Components: 346.60 UC
    Gravity Generator Components: 2274.00 UC
    Medical Supplies: 961.40 UC
    Communication Components: 20.44 UC
    Detector Components: 110.65 UC
    Explosives: (285.80 UC)
    Automatic Rifle: 17.59 UC
    Welder: 33.09 UC
    Angle Grinder: 20.23 UC
    Hand Drill: 87.35 UC
    NATO 5.56x45mm: (32.60 UC)
    NATO 25x185mm: (651.21 UC)
    200mm Missile: (1219.53 UC)
    Solar Cells: 44.84 UC

    Please pardon the slightly skewed columns but I tried to format it as best possible within the bounds of the forum software.

    Special thanks are given to the creator of SE Toolbox (please put your name forward so I may acknowledge you properly) and the contributors of this thread so far for all your help and ideas.
     
  2. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    On a further note, I have been keeping this updated as the refining and assembling times for things have changed and as of this latest patch (3/27/14) it is up to date.
     
  3. Captain Snyder Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm going to need to keep this window up.
     
  4. SpaceLion Trainee Engineer

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    Yay, me and my friend just opened a manufacturing and mining company on our server, and we needed a currency model :thumb:
     
  5. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    Glad you two like it. I will be keeping this up to date as best possible as values change.
     
  6. Morrigi Apprentice Engineer

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    That'd be pretty cool. Now to find a server that uses it...
     
  7. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    I will be using this in my server when dedicated server support is released Morrigi.
     
  8. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Why on earth (in space) would you establish a value of something? Why do you think you have a right or knowledge to do so? This way of thinking is why our economics is going to collapse pretty soon!

    Things have different values for different people in different times/situations! Noone have right nor knowledge to say "Thing X should have at all time and all places under all circumstances value of Y". There is only one way to determine value of something: Say "I would like to sell/buy X. How much Y will it cost me/will you give to me for it?" If you are not satisfied with the anwsers you get, you decide not to buy/sell and the value can be different at different place or different time.
    You can use it as your own pricelist if you are planning to create a trading center/company but even in that case it would probable not be wise to have a fix prices not changing in reaction to whats happening at the server that might affect the actual value of things. But you certainly have no right to dictate those values to others!

    But I agree that most potencial for becoming an universal currency have refined uranium as it's source of energy and everyone needs energy!
     
  9. Morrigi Apprentice Engineer

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    Yes, clearly posting a proposed barter system on a forum is claiming a right and/or knowledge to "dictate [these] values to others". It is also self-evident that JamesL here is using mind control to force everyone to obey his specified values under pain of death in this internet spaceship game.

    Or maybe, well, he just did a bunch of math involving ore yields, processing time, and so on and created a preliminary value system from the results, considering the fact that we have nothing else to go on at the moment, and posted that value system on the forums for all of us to see, since no one else appears to have done so.

    Personally, I think I'll go with the mind control hypothesis. [/sarcasm]
     
  10. Kaewan Trainee Engineer

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    Morrigi, I believe he did take into account mining yield and processing time, etc to come up with his numbers.

    However, another thing to note is that you also have to take into account the abundance (or lack) of resources available on the specific server. Example: On a server where it's hard to find platinum, the price will most likely be higher than normal for platinum and things that require platinum for manufacture.

    In any case, Morrigi is right and prices are not fixed. They will change based on supply and demand. These prices could be a good rule of thumb, though, so as to not get yourself ripped off!
     
  11. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Hmm, if NPC traders are added to SE, I hope they will use this trade standard.
     
  12. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

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    If they get added, I hope there'll be a lot of non-construction things to trade.
     
  13. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    He did presented it as "currency system" and "accurate way to value items" with clearly lacking basic knowledge about terms value and currency. And writing continuing discussion about using it "on servers" it sounds like these prices should be implemented as some sort of rule obligate for all players playing on the server... which is insane idea. No matter how good you are with math you just CAN'T calculate universal value of anything!
     
  14. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    Wow, nice little explosion my thread had over night. Allow me to make some clarifications and explain a bit of why I came up with it.

    Firstly this is not a "traditional" currency that one might use in there day to day lives. The UC is a form of barter system. It is intended that no running balances of how much "cash" you have be kept with this system. What these figures are is a set of scale weights if you will, and further, they are objectively based. In many cases in the real world, the price of something is not solely determined by how rare it is. The effort involved is also a large factor. That is what this chart's information is designed for, is the "effort" needed to make things. Now there is a small bit of supply/demand included in the values of items but that is only due to the fact that the refinement percentages for various ores must be considered as part of that supply. If you have say 1000 kg of iron ore and 1000 kg of silver ore, you will get a larger supply of usable iron ingots than you will silver because iron has a higher refining yield than silver.

    The other reason the chart does not consider supply/demand is because they are pretty much impossible to quantify in SE. One cannot know the precise contents of all the asteroids in the entire server. Further, one cannot know the amount of manufactured materials that are owned by all players. So even if you did try to incorporate supply/demand into the value of things, your figures would be very unreliable and the value of your money very unstable.

    Using this system or another similar system with static prices ensures that what was worth X amount yesterday, will still be worth X amount tomorrow. However, one cannot simply say this is worth X and that is worth Y without a basis for that conclusion either. So with no supply/demand factored in how else do you come up with the value of something?

    What I did was set the value of all ore to 1. Then did some simple maths to calculate the value of ingots based on there refining yields and the time it takes to refine a single whole ingot. After that I calculated the value of components etc based on the value of the ingots needed to produce said components along with the time needed to construct the component. Viola, we now have a basic way to assign a static value to any item (this could include ships etc) in order to do a comparative value trade. Plus this system can keep the inevitable price gouging that always seems to haunt sandbox games, from happening. This is because, as I said, the prices are objectively based ensuring that they are always fair. Yes I realize that saying the "price" of this or that is not really the correct term but it conveys the basic concept.

    In closing let me set you an example of the use of the UC.

    Player A needs to find some platinum ingots to finish his ship. Player B just happens to have some platinum available and is running short on uranium. Player A and B decide to make a trade for what each other needs. Player B has 54 platinum ingots available for trade and Player A has 87 uranium ingots that they can trade. Both players look at the UC chart to figure out how much "value" there goods have compared to each others trade offerings. So you look at the values of the trade items, in this case platinum worth 800 per ingot and uranium worth 571.44 per ingot. This means that every platinum ingot is worth approx. 1.4 uranium ingots. Thus, Player A can trade 75.6 of his available 87 uranium ingots to procure all of Player B's available 54 platinum ingots. Both players now have what they need and both players can also be content in knowing they got a fair deal as well.

    This post was a bit lengthy I know but I hope it answered some of your questions. Now I am by no means saying that everyone should use this yada yada yada. You can use whatever you like in your servers. This is just an example of how you can create a fair trade system and its one that I don't mind sharing with the community if they want to use it.
     
  15. cEeFOr Trainee Engineer

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    OP proposed a currency system ( UC "Uranium Currency") with the basis that Uranium is something that has value. I as well as others may realize that within the game SE, Uranium has the most value of all resources. I know it it very difficult to tell someone that they value something but lets look at it like this.

    1. Power is needed in SE to "Live". (your suit needs power for life support)
    2. Power is provided through Uranium and as of latest release, solar panels.
    3. Uranium provides more power than solar panels.

    Therefore on the assumption that people value their SE life (why else would they bother playing?), Uranium is highly valued by every player, and it is safe to use Uranium as a base of currency. Yes i know Value and currency are two different things. Currency is a Medium of Exchange and it needs to be based on something that has value and value comes from the consumer. If the consumer does not want it, it has no demand, therefore has no value because nobody wants said item.

    To sum my post up, Uranium has value, because Uranium provides life (within SE).

    For people to go and say OP was wrong in "making" a currency system for the game, one, its a GAME. Who gives a poop? Two, it was PROPOSED. He didn't force it on anyone. It's a pretty safe proposition too. You are also arguing something that matters in real life. In real life there is Supply, and there is Demand, and those two factors are manipulated by the availability of resources in certain regions of the world. Water is high in demand in certain 3rd world countries which makes it valuable to the populace. Water happens to be VERY abundant but not the equipment to make it drinkable, so for that hypothetical 3rd world country, drinking water is very scarce.
    OP is basing his currency system in a world where resources will run out very soon and all of the resources are immediately available. So real world economics apply only half way.
     
  16. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    If I may suggest two simple modifications (I say simple but it would probably require an excel spreadsheet and a calculator to properly the one modification properlydo):
    1. Allow the UC value of ores to modify the value of the ingots
    2. Round all values up to the next whole number.
    Currently that has No impact on your system, the UC values all being 1 for ore, means your system is about yield and refining time... which is good. I mean, if you want to get technical that is probably -Great- because you are talking about energy consumption, and the low yield and high refining time materials Will cost more energy to refine... for that reason I endorse your system. My suggestion stems from the variability of resources on the servers.

    Currently in my experience there is at Least 1 resources people need, and a few everyone has. On my current server it's Silicon, I am the only person with a large scale Si mine. In that situation Si should probably by greater in value.

    So, it would simply be a matter of saying the ore is, say 2. At that point the ingot would be 3UC, and you would likewise raise the price of all the building components requiring it from there.

    As for suggestion 2, simply put if this is to be a simple system that people can rapidly point to and remember, being rounded to the hundredths place is largely unnecessary.

    Do you have a sheet that does all this on something like Drive?
     
  17. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Well again, there is very little knowledge of economics here:

    First an most important rule of any world, gaminng or real: Value is subjective and very fluctual with time! You can not even close set values of something because every person you encounter can value different items very differently!

    Also, you can't state some price is fair or unfair. Any transaction which is not forced (pay your taxes or you will be imprisoned) is a free transaction and both sides of transaction agreed to it = both sides of transaction consider assets they are receiving more valuable than those they are giving away. If two players at peacefull spacestation agree on trade 1kg of Uranium for 500g of Gold it's a fair trade. If the same players meet in hostile quadrant of space and one of them have ship with no energy and they both agree to trade 1kg of Uranium for 10kg of Gold, the price is equaly fair as in the first trade!

    The barter system is essence capitalism (actually monetary system untill destroyed by goverments in 70's, since when there is no existing capitalism in real world, was nothing more than a barter system, since money was only checks for amount of gold) and as such it stands on one simple principle: Noone and everyone creates the prices. The supply and demand of players meeting for trading creates and changes the prices. every second. It's also the best way to collect and transmit information about general rarity of items.

    You may think that creating a system that "ensures that what was worth X amount yesterday, will still be worth X amount tomorrow" creates fairness while in reality it only creates unfairness.
     
  18. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    Ash87: To your first point, the main reason I designed out the variability of the values was to prevent fluctuations in said value. I suppose you could arbitrarily change the ore values as you suggest thus altering the values of everything that change would effect. However I find this drastically and needlessly complicates a trade system design for a game if I am honest. As I said in my last post, the prices are made static to ensure that if something is worth X yesterday then it will be worth X tomorrow. This makes the system reliable and eliminates the fluctuations in value that come with a variable system. Now you might say that isn't fair in some cases because it means you can't raise a price on something to increase "profit" but that is exactly why its static in the first place. It prevents players on a server that uses this system from making an easy buck and taking advantage of other players, especially players new to the game or server.

    As to the point of rounding values: the precise values were given for those that want to use them. As I stated in the original post, rounded values are fine. If your server wants to round them that's fine. If they want to use the precise figures that's fine as well. If a server wants to introduce a modded version that allows for price manipulation that is also fine. All I ask is that in the interest of fairness that all players on a server be told exactly how the system works in whatever form it is established. Fair play makes for fun play in my opinion.

    Also I have no idea what "Drive" is. I also do not have the know-how to spreadsheet this into excel because I have no idea how to use the maths to make the thing work. Whenever an update comes out I have to manually recalculate the factors of anything that was changed from the previous update.
     
  19. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    Hatchie: If you could explain to me how a variable price system is more fair than a static one I would like to hear it. Perhaps it is just personal experience but to me having a variable price system in a game is far different than in reality. Now this is not an accusation so please don't take it that way, but it sounds to me like you want to have the option of taking advantage of someone or you at least think that option should be available. Any variable system can be "rigged" to benefit one or more people. OPEC can for example actively reduce the amount of supply of oil they export thus raising the price and increasing there profit. I came up with a static system precisely to prevent such economic piracy. Or to put it another way, to prevent the one with all the gold from making the rules, such is the real golden rule in the world these days. Static prices prevents the system from being rigged. Now you are free to introduce your own version of the UC that incorporates variable trade values through supply and demand. I simply provided a place to start. Whatever server you establish can have whatever system you see fit to implement.

    I sense I need to reiterate that last point for folks... This is not a be all end all to building an economy in an SE MP server. You can do as you wish when you set it up. You are free to use this system as a basis for your own or create an entirely different system all together. I only posted this to illustrate to those having trouble that even a basic system is easily created with a bit of maths.

    And also to you Hatchie: I understand that you may have been looking for or thinking that this system was trying to be based on capitalism... its not. Capitalism has brought great prosperity to the world but also great turmoil and hardship... The UC was designed as best I could manage for a game world. Specifically a game world where supply and demand are virtually meaningless because everyone can easily procure all the base materials needed for everything. What you might see as a lack of understanding (and I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on) is simply and misinterpretation of the application of system tailor made for a specific application. I ask simply if you really think that real world economic principles would be as rigidly adhered to in a game as they are in real life? There is no actual threat of bankruptcy or bodily harm in a game, thus the system has to adapt to the altered psychology of the players that situation creates. If you think Wall Street was out of control in real life, can you imagine the disaster having a system like that in a virtual world would create?
     
  20. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    Fair enough, would you be offended if I modified the system (With the variable ore prices) for my own stuff then? It is your system, and your idea, thus I ask out of courtesy.

    Further, I could make you that spreadsheet so it'd be easier to do, if it would be of service to you. I was speaking of Google Drive, which is google's means of easy file sharing.
     
  21. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

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    UC still needs to have variables: at least up to 10% changes depending on ore availability.
    (ore cost varies from 0.9 to 1.1 and ingot price is multiplied by corresponding ore cost)


    Also: it's either capitalism, or communism.
    In first price varies greatly, in second there's no need for UC at all.
     
  22. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    As I was telling Hatchie, you are free to use any modifications to the UC that you see fit Ash. You can even create an entirely separate system if you so desire. This, while my pride and joy the last couple of months, is but a stepping stone. It is a basis in which to establish an economic system that can be used in SE.

    Teravisor: Again you are free to make whatever modifications you like, but I do not see the need, personally, for a variable pricing system. The UC is not based on capitalism but is an idealized valuation system designed specifically for SE to ensure that all players can get all things for the same "price". In its original form it is designed to be (as best possible) "griefer-proof". If a server has a static value for all items established as a rule for their community, and someone is found to not be adhering to said agreed upon system for purposes of exploitation, then action can be taken against the offending player. This keeps the player base happy as everyone has the same opportunities as everyone else. You will still have "rich folk" and "poor folk" because of the differing amounts of time that different players have available to play SE, sure. However the exchange between the "haves" and have-nots" will always be on the level, eliminating the ability for one player(s) to suppress another, at least economically. This does nothing to stem the tide of warmongers but that is for the server operator and the server community to decide.
     
  23. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

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    Idealistic systems cannot run in real environments. What you're talking is USSR's communism, there always will be "rich folk" who invested more time into it and "poor folk" who can't get rich by exploiting trading system to get rich faster.
    So it's far from ideal. You should've made evaluation system to see what resources see what demands first - iron(and magnesium if fighting is ongoing) is used in such large quantities compared to other resources that your system breaks.
     
  24. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    Look people, regardless of whether or not he wants to add in variable values for the ores, it's a solid idea basing it around, what is effectively energy consumption. And he's said it can be modified, I'll try and put a spreadsheet together with it, and post a link here.
     
  25. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    So again first and most important rule of any economy and any trades: VALUE OF THING IS RELATIVE, SUBJECTIVE AND FLUCTUATING! PEOPLE CAN'T SAY EXACTLY "I VALUE X FOR 1,4 Y" BUT ONLY "I VALUE Y MORE THAN X". WHILE SOME PERSON MAY VALUE X MORE THAN Y, YOU CAN VALUE Y MORE THAN X AND BOTH OF YOU ARE CORRECT. AND EVEN THO PERSON CAN NOW VALUE X MORE THAN Y, ONE HOUR FROM NOW HE CAN VALUE Y MORE THAN X.
    I stated the situation when two players meet first time at peacefull station and second time in far space with one player having ship out of fuel. The player without fuel who just an hour ago valued Gold more than Uranium in 1:2 ratio now values Uranium far more than Gold in 10:1 ratio. His own relative values changed 20times (from 1:2 to 10:1) in just one hour and with change of place and conditions.

    Major problem I see in your ideas is misinterpretation of profit as something bad. This is an idea Karl Marx established (because he failed to see the meaning of time in his thoughts) and it's often interpreted this way by people with little knowledge of economics even tho they don't know original ideas of Marx. The rule which is universally correct: AT ANY TIME WHEN TWO SIDES DECIDES FREELY TO TRADE TWO ASSETS WITHOUT ANY INTERFERING OF THIRD SIDE (TRYING TO DETERMINE PRICES OR OTHER ASPECTS OF TRADE WITH FORCE) BOTH SIDES PROFIT! ALWAYS! It's because only way for free trade to happen is when these conditions are met:
    - Person A have X and values Y more than X
    - Person B have Y and values X more than Y
    When these conditions are met, both sides will agree to trade where person A gives X to person B in exchange for Y. And both sides will profit since both sides get something more valuable for them in exchange for something less vlauble for them.
    In true capitalism there is only one way to create your own profit: Create profit for other people too!

    Also your claiming that "supply and demand are virtually meaningless" is false. Of course there will be things more demanded (I dare to guess it will be Uranium and Iron as energy source and basic building material, but noone can actually say it untill dedicated servers come in to show us and it can actually vary from server to server) and less demanded. And those can also change in time! For example Iron and Uranium will probably be far more valuable than anything else in the beginnings of the server when everyone is low on fuel and everyone wants to build some station as base which requires a lots of iron. As the game progresses, there are stations where players have bases and everyone have ships and some supplies of Uranium in stocks, those thing lose some value while other materials for more advanced building raise in value. - Still just a guess!

    Your interpretation of "taking advantage of someone", "rigging system" and "economic piracy" is just misunderstanding of these concepts. If you question if those principles are valid in game world, try to look at any MMO with trading system (basicly any), everything changed values in time.

    Other reason for free market is that: FREE PRICES ARE ONLY AND PERFECT WAY TO ALMOST IMMEDIATELY TRANSFER INFORMATIONS ABOUT RARITY OF ITEMS THROUGHOUT WHOLE WORLD AND BETWEEN ALL PEOPLE ENGAGING THE MARKET. Lets assume there will be some sort of generating random asteroids to make it possible for servers to run indefinitely without running out of materials. What happens when for example for a week there will be only very little silicon ore generated in new asteroids and reserves of silicon in peoples stockpiles will start to decrease. How will people react? They will be less opened to trade away their silicon and they would be willing to consider it only if someone would agree to give them more for it. And those who need silicon would be willing to give more for silicon as it became more rare.
    There is also possibility that silicon will just be generated far more in one corner of the map while on the rest of the map there will be almost none of it while having for example abundant uranium. In which case silicon in the silicon-generating corner of the map will have lesser value than in the rest of the map while uranium will generaly be more valuable here than other places.

    Finally you want to hear a best system to implement? NONE! Take this price system, create a large mining/trading company on the server and make this your pricelist. You will sooner or later see that values of materials changes with time or place (if you create multiple "facilities") and also as more of such companies arise and you will have to alter it. Trying to make something as this as "universall correct" or "fair" is just madness.
     
  26. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

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    It's not madness, it's idealism.

    USSR had the exact same realized, people lived there happily, but where is it now?
    You can't force ideals on human nature, it desires bad things.
     
  27. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    I see that we have an issue here. Allow me to say this as plainly as possible. If you can come up with a better basis for a system, then please flesh it out and post it. I honestly would like to see it because This is about the best I have come up with so far. Also by better I mean, A) superior in its ability to create an in-server economy that works, and B) just as easy to implement and understand. Not everyone is an economics major (and that most certainly applies to me as you have pointed out many times Hatchie). This system was intended to be use in whole or in part, as is or modified, as a method to create a trade economy for those players that want to use it. Even if it exists on a server does not mean that every player on said server has to use it exclusively, and by that i mean if you don't want to trade for your goods then you don't have to trade. You can mine everything you need. The fundamental hurdle in creating an economy in SE is that in essence, everyone has a printing press. At least in my mind, as I see it, its nigh impossible to create a conventional real world type economy in such a situation. There is no difficulty in securing the resources needed to build things because you don't need to go through all the hoops that you would in real life to say start a gold mining operation. The start-up costs are near zero for such an endeavor in SE. Also i disagree with your assessment of how profits really work in the real world Hatchie. Profit within reason is a good thing. Profit in excess is always a bad thing. I have an average understanding of economics, I simply don't agree with some of the principals involved. I also have a large amount of experience with MMO economies and the one thing you seem to have forgotten is that in the vast majority of cases, the in-game economy favors those that can afford the micro transactions to get what they want which in many cases can drastically alter the balance of the economy. This is yet another example of (assuming here) moral people taking an amoral approach when it comes to there behavior in a game vs real life. If I have the cash to spend I can gain an unfair advantage over other players who either lack the time or the money to get what I have. Its exploitative and often ruins the fun of other players.

    There are no micro transactions in SE. SE will also never be an MMO in the classic sense. Even if the software gets good enough to handle hundreds of players on a server at a time, its still going to work off a Minecraft model of having player run servers. In a few years it could MMO-like, but its never going to be a full blown deal. Maybe I don't fully understand the finer points of economic principle. That is not the point in my opinion. I am not trying to create something based off of capitalism OR communism. I am trying to create something for SE specifically that may have a mixture of both or neither. There has not yet been enough experience in SE MP to say that everyone knows how much iron is worth under various conditions. We simply do not know how far a buck could carry us in SE right now. So what is wrong with having a static price value on goods for now, so people will actually have a basis for which to trade in light of not having the expertise to make an informed decision on there own. You say that the value of things being exchanged is most equitable when the players come to an agreement over the price. In principal I agree, but in practice at least at this early stage I disagree. Player A has played hundreds of hours of SE and knows what things are truly worth. Player B is brand new and has not a clue. Player A offers a trade that, to the observer, is clearly way out of balance. Player B accepts it out of ignorance. This scenario is what I am trying to keep from happening. The UC is an aid, like Kelley Blue Book. It can be changed. Its adaptable. And it does not have to be used by everybody. But it can be used by those who lack the knowledge to keep up with those that are experienced thus leveling the field.

    Now if you can come up with ways to improve it then please by all means lets see some data posted. I want to see improvements. I want to see alternatives. I want the SE community slam there heads together and get those gears working. I would wager that dedicated servers are coming sooner than we realize and the sooner we start figuring things out the more fun we can have playing.
     
  28. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    398
    Then your system is wrong in numbers. Seriously wrong.

    Silicon is same as iron, but a usual corvette class uses about 4000 times more iron than silicon.
    And everyone wants to build a station/corvette at least. Station requires even more iron, and even less silicon.

    And that's just example.

    Do you think demand won't change prices?
     
  29. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,091
    The number only reflect the refinement yields and manufacturing times currently. Iron and Silicon are the same price because there yields and times are identical. That was the whole point. However since the game generator was changed, every large asteroid (and i mean every... single... one...) Has a core of solid or near solid iron. Based on what I have seen in game there is literally hundreds if not thousands of times the amount of iron ore vs any other ore. But as I said, the values only reflect the objective statistics currently and do not take into account the average composition of the average player creation. I was considering adding this to the base prices but could not find a suitable method to determine an accurate estimation, as player creations can vary wildly in both size and shape. As I said before, its not finished yet and is an ongoing project.

    I would also like to add that in general, if a game economy requires the average player to be an accountant then I consider that a fail. In a game where their is no software integration of the economy running and calculating in the background then the economy needs to be as simplistic as possible. This will ensure that players can spend time playing as opposed to banging on a calculator for an hour.
     
  30. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    398
    That's exactly why they don't show real economy. And thus they can't be used as reference in any case.

    This game does not require you to be accountant: in that you're horribly wrong.
    Just work a usual worker under some 'corporation' and build some projects, or engineer them. No economy comes your way. Or play creative if you THAT want to play on servers with 100+ more people, and if you don't want/know any economy is so situational that it's not predictable in any way.

    Oh, and in EVERY game you can just ask before buying.

    EDIT:
    In order to make an ideal average system you need to calculate:
    1. Ore availability (chance of appearing, average size of veins)
    2. Time required to get specified ore amount (should be 1.0 coefficient for ore you have available and varies for ore not available in your area: you need to find where to buy, bargain, etc)
    3. Time and resources required to get specified salvaged resources (From cargo ships, etc if it's faster than mining and refining)
    3. Refine costs (vary on average Uranium costs)
    4. Usage in common projects (a huge resource drain which every player makes 1-2 times at least)
    5. Usage in luxury projects (a huge resource drain for those who like looks/ideas, not produced by everyone playing)
    6. Usage in combat situations (a huge resource drain when you're fighting PVE/PVP)
    7. Average repair/support costs of common projects (Even failed mining ships need a replacements)
    8. Average repair/support costs of luxury projects (And solar panels get crashed by some crazy pilots)

    And I'm sure you can come up with even bigger list, but that's main points of resource usages and gains I think. So it becomes a huge formula for EACH resource and for that you NEED XLS file or you're not going anywhere.

    P.S. I don't like doubleposting, so edit.
     
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