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Introducing the UC Trading Value System for MP

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by JamesL86, Mar 28, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Communist Penguin Apprentice Engineer

    dear lord, what i thought was supposed to be a starting point for figuring out how much things are worth has descended into utter madness.

  2. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    I never said they show a real economy. Its a game so it doesn't need a "real" economy. If I made a game I could in fact base the economy on flatulence if I wanted to, and in that case beans would be worth more than gold. (Yes that too is supply and demand which is not fleshed out yet). The point was that it was a start and not and end. It could be an end if a group of players wanted to keep things really simple. But it doesn't have to be. I really don't think we are seeing each others points here. I know its not complete, and if you read into my intent that it was then I apologize. However you don't have to have a reality based economy is my point. For those that do, they can alter it with my blessings. Why is that so hard to figure out?

    Also the accountant remark was due in part because we the players would have to keep track of everything since its not programmed. I for one do not have the skills to do such a thing, ie, keep track of all the supply across the entire server of every good minute by minute or day by day as well as keeping up with the personal wealth of every single player. Even if a server only has 4-5 people on at a time it could still have dozens of players as part of that server and that is entirely too much information for me to maintain. I also don't know a thing about programming so its not like I could build software to do it for me either. Alpha game=Alpha economy based on extremely simplistic principals so that the economic management does not get in the way of game play. As the game progresses, so to can the economic model. Again, I really don't understand the point of the argument with respect to the current, as well as, the near future predictions of the game.

    Edit: (good idea btw) response to your edit: I haven't the foggiest idea how to that sort of advanced software stuff. That was yet another reason why I made the initial system so simplistic.
  3. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Unless you post formula with which you determine value, we're not going anywhere.
    Formula, or everything is crappy idealism.

    P.S. walls of text full of idealism are hard to read, could you be more brief?
  4. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    okay lets take iron for example: Iron ore is worth 1 UC Iron ingot is worth 1.49 (approx). The yield for Iron is 0.7. So 1/0.7=1.42 (approx). The refining time is 0.05. Thus the total value is 1.42+(1.42x0.05) which is 1.49. Simple.

    The value of components is simply the net value of the ingots multiplied by the manufacturing time. So if comp A needs x, y, and z for example. x=1 y=2 z=3 and A needs 5 seconds to build.
    Value of A equals (1+2+3)x5 which is 30.
  5. Communist Penguin Apprentice Engineer

    incase my origional comment was lost in the heat of the discussion, what i meant to say is that is a good reference point for trading
  6. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    Thanks CP. At least someone understands that this is a "basis" for a system.
  7. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Unless your formula will account at least 3/4 points of my modified post (http://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1282167337&postcount=30) I will say one thing: it's useless for trading. Your estimation will be far too far from real values, and they will mislead people. And that's the worst thing you can make.

    It is not because numbers are like 100 times, or even 1000 times wrong.

    P.S. to make a normal numbers tell me: how much uranium ingots you need to power refinery for 1 second? (or any other amount of time).
  8. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    Lemme try to be as to the point as I can concerning the points you made in your linked post:

    1) cannot be accurately determined without knowing the exact composition of each asteroid on a server.

    2)This alone requires knowing how fast ore is mined by both the hand drill and the ship drill. The issue here is that the speed will vary. The hand drill time varies due to differing settings for objects. The ship drill varies based on the number of drills, as has been my observation. Even if the number of drills and their orientation did not effect the collection speed (which is does) this figure imo is too variable to nail down.

    3a)In my experience, its always faster to salvage, but it varies wildly depending on the circumstances.

    3b)Since the efficiency of uranium consumption decreases as the level of power used increases as a fraction of total supply, this number is also varies, though not as much as some other factors.

    4)While an educated guess could be put forth, this depends on the build style of the player and as such is imo not reliable.

    5) see 4

    6) This will almost exclusively apply to magnesium as ammo is the only thing that currently uses that resource. There will be some increase in cost for general materials as ships are destroyed but the main cost is magnesium.

    7) and 8) I have yet to actually need to use any materials to repair anything. I know from testing that after a certain point, a block will lose materials and you have to add more. But so far the only "repair" cost has been welding. I have had to replace a few blocks here and there but the cost was miniscule.

    As for how to get all this into an equation (when the figures can be determined) I haven't a clue. I do most everything with paper and a ruler. I am assuming that xls is some kind of document format for excel or something. I don't know how to use spreadsheet formulas either.
  9. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    1. You can get statistics on how often ore spawns. If you don't have it - then your system isn't full. You can use average statistics you see by using ore detector/prospect mining from asteroids.
    2. That's exactly the point why ore from people who has tools is cheaper than from those that don't. And you try to equalize them. I can mine with my 13-ship drill really fast, but newbie with only hand drill can't. And 50-drill ship will outdo my ship. But you equilize them! So take average.
    3a. that's why salvage must have coefficient in formula, that'll SERIOUSLY change when cargo ships will have active turrets.
    3b. I thought efficiency of Uranium only depends on type of reactor used and amount of energy consumed. For first - see point 2.
    4. That's why you take AVERAGE from STATISTICS. Everywhere where you can't get precise numbers, you do THIS.
    6. As well as increase on PvP servers much. But SYSTEM must account for that to be universal.
    7. Failed experiments from people who just started playing can be like whole ships destroyed. Sometimes my mineship loses several landing pads/engine because I was not careful and use not optimal mining ship. Also in battle/PvP environment will take considerable amounts of iron. SYSTEM must be sure to account for that to be universal. Griefers go there.
  10. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    1) this will determine spawn yes, but not quantity. I have dug deep into a roid many times going after a hit on uranium only to find that the vein was not enough to even fill one drill. For this we would need a method for the server host to analyze the roids. Counting the number of hits of each ore in a given field and extrapolating from that simply will not work.

    2)This is not an issue of tools but and issue of the game. For players on less sophisticated machines, they need to stop and collect ore more often when hand mining because they have to reduce the object count settings. For ship drills, the configuration of the drills as well as the number of drill effects the spawn rate of ore rocks. The drills do not collect ore directly but instead gather the rocks they produce. Also as you add drills the rate of spawn decreases as the number of drill effects the voxel deformation and thus spawn rates. These variables are also not always linear so an average of these would be inaccurate.

    3a)honestly i have no idea what a coefficient is. Sorry.

    3b)In fact it is as I stated as far as I can determine. The higher percentage of available power to consume, the more fuel you burn. But for purposes of calculation we could assign it an average value. I am not sure how to determine consumption for a given amount of power however besides the stopwatch method. But this number would be static across all calculations as the consumption rate per watt would not differ from item to item since the consumption rate of refineries and assemblers are static.

    4)perhaps a poll then?

    6)I am not sure what you mean... if you mean a variance in player quantity, I do not know why conflict would effect that.

    7)This is why anyone with common sense prototypes in creative first. This will be the norm once the 3d printer idea marek spoke of in the ama is implemented along with blueprints. The point about war though... yes i agree. for simplicity, perhaps an estimated upkeep cost associated with the calculation of average material composition would be good for this.
  11. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Then why are you trying to make something you can't make?
    I'm tired of discussing problems that are easy to solve.

    The simplest system that is more correct than yours: go to any survival server where a corvette is built, save game, leave, get SEtoolbox and see how much ore you need for that corvette, then start a new game, see what ores are on surface of every asteroid and assume all ore veins have size of 1(abstract number).
    Then calculate.

    But I hope world will sometime become infinite and we'll not have to worry about availability of resources, only time needed to get them.

    Or you can forget economical system, and just be self-sufficient, the most effective way.
  12. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    For the MMO question:
    I did not mean a game with any sort micro transactions! I played for 3 years a game called Lineage2 (the closest simillar game is WoW) and no microtransactions were involved. There was plenty of items and materials to create those items. Trading was working in one of the most capitalistic way I can imagine - player sat down (most usually at some frequented area such as townsquare) and created a shop where he was buying/selling X quantity of thing Y for Z price. Anyone who was running by could just stop, look at it and if he agreed to price, buy/sell. The server was freeware but well managed without possibility of gaining any unfair advantage for real money and no mods interfiering with enviroment. I started when the server was relatively young (no player was anywhere near maximum level, none of the world raid bosses with exclusive drop was ever defeated, first clans were beginning) and played for several years into state of very mature server (3 big alliances fighting over important things, large playerbase, lots of everything in the world). I played as lone wolf aswell as member of monopolistic alliance that for several months had power to decide over everything important on the server. And I watched the market very carefully. And I can tell you this: Prices even of the most basic materials which were everywhere and with "start-up costs near zero" were fluctuating so much through the time and was different from city to city! Sometimes the reasons were obvious, sometimes it was just a "decision of the mass" (where each player buying/selling on the market had his part in the decision) with no obvious cause.
    And I also played on very nice minecraft server. The trading system was: (There was a mod with money used for trade but that have basicly no impact in the universally correct rules) There was huge public area where players could create public shops (but they could also create shops anywhere else, this was just a trading center). And again: Prices were fluctuating in time aswell in space. There was often a public shop in wild where thing X was sold at higher price than at the trade center. Even if you knew that you sometimes buy that (the time and "annoyment" of travelling to center and back was less valuable to you than the price difference). It wasin no way a ripoff, if you value it enough, you freely choose to buy it, if not you decide not to!

    For the profit question:
    "Profit in excess" is wrong statement to begin with, because you can't measure profit!. Lets use a simple process of implication:
    -Fact A: Value is subjective and relative = you can't meassure it precisely, you can only say "I value X more than I value Y". And the less can some else meassure it for you!
    -Fact B: The magnitude of profit would be difference between value of the assets got and value of the assets lost.
    Implication: If you can't meassure a value, you can't meassure a profit either.

    Lets get to an theoretical example:
    - Person A have X, but values Y more than X (not knowing by how much, just knows he is willing to trade X for Y) => As value of X = ?, As values of Y = X+? = ?+?
    - Person B have Y, but values X more than Y (not knowing by how much, just knows he is willing to trade Y for X) => Bs value of X = Y+? = ?+?, Bs values of Y = ?
    - Since BOTH of them would profit on given trade, they both freely agree to trade X for Y
    - Person A profited, because he got Y in exchange for X, which is more valuable for him => As profit = As value of Y - As values of X => As profit = ?+? - ?
    - Person B profited, because he got X in exchange for Y, which is more valuable for him => Bs profit = Bs value of X - Bs values of Y => Bs profit = ?+? - ?

    Now make this example a little more specific:
    - Person A have 0,5kg of Uranium, but values 1kg of Gold more than 0,5kg of Uranium (Can you tell by how much he values Gold more than Uranium? Can him tell?)
    - Person B have 1kg of Gold, but values 0,5kg of Uranium more than 1kg of Gold (Can you tell by how much he values Uranium more than Gold? Can him tell)
    - Since BOTH of them would profit on given trade, they both freely agree to trade 1kg of Gold for 0,5kg of Uranium
    - Person A profited, because he got 1kg of Gold in exchange for 0,5kg of Uranium, which is more valuable for him
    - Person B profited, because he got 0,5kg of Uranium in exchange for 1kg of Gold , which is more valuable for him

    Can you tell how much person A profited on this trade? How much he is better off with 1kg of Gold than he was with 0,5kg of Uranium?
    Can you tell how much person B profited on this trade? How much he is better off with 0,5kg of Uranium than he was with 1kg of Gold?

    The anwsers are "No!" and "No!". And even those 2 people can't tell which one of them profited more!

    Now lets say those people just say goodbye and fly in different directions. After a while, person B meets person C:
    - Person B now have 0,5kg of Uranium, but values 2kg of Gold more than 0,5kg of Uranium (Can you tell by how much he values Gold more than Uranium? Can him tell?)
    - Person C have 2kg of Gold, but values 0,5kg of Uranium more than 2kg of Gold (Can you tell by how much he values Uranium more than Gold? Can him tell)
    - Since BOTH of them would profit on given trade, they both freely agree to trade 2kg of Gold for 0,5kg of Uranium
    - Person B profited, because he got 2kg of Gold in exchange for 0,5kg of Uranium, which is more valuable for him
    - Person C profited, because he got 0,5kg of Uranium in exchange for 2kg of Gold, which is more valuable for him

    Can you tell how much person B profited on this trade? How much he is better off with 2kg of Gold than he was with 0,5kg of Uranium?
    Can you tell how much person C profited on this trade? How much he is better off with 0,5kg of Uranium than he was with 2kg of Gold?

    The anwseres are again "No!" and "No!". Now lets summ it up:

    Person A profited, because he started with 0,5kg of Uranium and ended up with 1kg of Gold, which is more valuable for him. But you can't tell how much he profited!
    Person C also profited, because he started with 2kg of Gold and ended up with 0,5kg of Uranium, which is more valuable for him. But you can't tell how much he profited!
    And person B also profited, because he started with 1kg of Gold and ended up with 2kg of Gold, which is (obviously) more valuable for him. <strong>But you can't tell how much he profited!

    </strong>Even tho you see that person B just gained 1kg of Gold and can speak about "ripoff" and "taking advantage of someone", note that:
    - Both players A and C made profit from the trades, they weren't robbed!
    - You can't say who profited how much for all those 3 people. It's very well possible that player B was the least profiting out of those 3!

    You can say that "people A and C could just trade with each other without player B". Questions are:
    - Would players A and C even meet without player B to accomplish the trade?
    - By the time they would meet each other (or any other person willing the trade), wouldn't their preferencies change? Would player A still value Gold more than Uranium? Would player C still value Uranium more than Gold? Would their preferencies still be strong enough to trade 2kg of Gold for 0,5kg of Uranium?

    Consider player A needed the Gold to repair his thrusters to escape from dangerous part of space and player C needed Uranium to power up his ship to escape aswell. Player B just saved 2 lives (actually just ships as death is not permanent), for mere 1kg of Gold. He most probably profited by far the least out of those 3!

    Addition to measuring profit:
    People tend to think they can easily measure someone elses profit because they can just count money and use simple math. But this is based on one extremely wrong assumption which I now take the liberty to correct: Money is not value! Money is just asset just as any other object that is subject to ownership. AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE VALUE MONEY (JUST AS OTHER KEY ASSETS SUCH AS TIME, HEALTH, ETC...) DIFFERENTLY! 100 euro does not have the same value for you as it have for me! (because we both value money differently). 10 minutes of my live does not have the same value as 10 minutes of your live (because we both value our time differently). My health does not have the same value as your health (because we both value our health differently).

    For your question about good economic system I repeat:
    Every "economic system" directed by any player(s), mod(s) or entity(ies) will be hurtfull for the economy and all players engaging in it! Only good economic system is the simplest one and the one own to every human being (= easiest to understand): Capitalism = Free market! Supply and demand! The system that is created and affected by every person involved in trading (and actually indirectly by those who aren't involved).
    For the question of implementation:
    As you are concerned about problems with spreading informations about prices (even tho this problem is actually fake because only information about price every player needs is anwser to question "Are assets offered to me in trade more valuable to me than those demanded from me? For me subjectively at this time and place?") you can help solving this problem the way I told you: Create large trading company, create your own pricelist simillar to what you created, make it public for every player to see and see if players are willing to trade for such prices. You will most probably see you need to change them on weekly basis.
    But keep in mind those are your prices, valid only at the place where you are trading and at the time you are using them to trade. Don't try to say they are server-wide prices. Don't try to say those are only fair prices at any place under any circumstances. Don't try to say anyone using different prices is ripping off, rigging the economy and trying to steal from others and taking advantage of them. None of this is true!
  13. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    I am sure there have been plenty of times where someone came up with an idea that they themselves could not fathom how to create. I don't see your point. What I made, has worked fine for a basic comparative trade system in my initial testing. What I assume the community wants is something more complex and more accurate. I give a basic idea and the ones in the community can expand upon it. That is what a community is for you know, to help each other.

    The only issue that I see is that in my system there is no money. No one has personal wealth quantifiable by a single number. There is no market or any such similar thing. It is simply "this apple is worth this many oranges". This is not sufficient. But it does work on a very (and I mean very) basic level. I leave it up to others who understand complex mathematics and programming languages to fill in the gaps while offering whatever help i can along the way.
  14. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    I say it now: they do it because supply and demand change with real time, and you can't fix it because players don't do one thing 24/7. And prices are just a consequence of supply/demand. Read Marx, learn economy first, then make 'ideal' systems. Because otherwise they're crap.

    Oh, and your 'tools' for measurement are HUNDREDS of times off real values, so it's crap too.

    And stop posting walls of text that say "Everyone does capitalism, but capitalism is crap because if you're newbie you can't know a price and can get ripped off!" - because it's human nature.
  15. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    I never said capitalism was crap. I implied that people who unfairly take advantage of others are crap. If you read my last post thoroughly you would have seen that I did state that what I made was insufficient and speculated about the community helping to fill in the gaps. Its no where near perfect but perhaps instead of trying to insult me over and over you could contribute to fixing the issues instead. Just saying....

    Oh and to Hatchie: its a very thorough explanation and I followed most of it surprisingly. Its not the type of system I was aiming for by any means but it would probably be the best system in the long run. This was the main thing I wanted to do was to get the community's wheels turning.
  16. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    That's human nature, and I've stated it 2 times already. You can't change that no matter what.

    If not economic war, then it'll be real war with weapons and robbing, that's all.
  17. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    Teravisor: Even tho we clearly believe in different economy schools we both agree this system just can't be good. I must admit I read only very little of Marx but I can assume that just as Austrian school he realised that economy is about human behavior which is chaotic and unpredictable and such thing is impossible to just jam into equations and get the exact numbers that solves every problem.
  18. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer


    It is impossible to jam it precisely, but you can make a 'tool' to evaluate resource significance.
    What I've been trying to say, that 'tool' presented in first post of this topic is completely wrong and misleads people which in consequence robs people just like capitalism we're talking about.
  19. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    Well here we come to diasgreements but for the outcome to this topic we aren't actually that much apart as you claim that such system would be incredibly hard to create and maintain while I claim it's just right impossible!
  20. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    At least use average mining ship material requirements to modify costs you placed in first post, or it's harmful for innocent people who read it.
    Because iron is no less than 10000 times more needed than stone and found in same quantities.
    And iron will cost more than silicon as well as you only need silicon for some critical systems.
    I wouldn't have started this holywar if errors were like 10 times, but errors are 100-10000 times!
  21. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    You must have mistaken my with OP somewhere along the way ;) But quite frankly I don't get how is it possible since I repeatedly said this system will not work.
  22. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    Yeah, I was fighing a wrong man.
    An epic fail in a holy war.
    And an ally to boot.
    I've missed a target somewhere alongside 3rd page.
  23. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    I have SE Toolbox already so if I may ask, how would you go about modifying the figures to reflect the quantity averages? I can get some averages but I am not sure how to factor them into the prices.
  24. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    All prices are relative.
    You have amount of ore of each type (except uranium) needed.
    Isn't that a relation you need?
    You can set a minimum value of a 'stone' and then see that for example you need 1.000.000 iron ore for ship and 1.000 stone for same ship needed - that means a demands on iron ore 1.000 times more, and thus 1 iron ore costs 1.000 stones.
    Later it should be modified by availability of ore. (Iron is easily scrapped from ships, but it takes forever to scrap it; iron ore is found in abundancy on most asteroids; both net for some decrease in cost, hard to evaluate without having statistics)

    Of course you can set any value as a basic "1 UC", that's just example with "Stones".

    That's the simplest way of doing it. Harder ways are averaging statistics, interpolating needs by player time and evaluating them, etc, etc...

    As you see costs in ore, you don't really need bars in those calculations and bars will be calculated from ore costs and refining costs(you've already done refining costs, just multiply by ore costs).

    Then by calculating bars needed and uranium efficiency you can get some average uranium needs for ship (how much uranium you need to refine all that ore, and assemble it, and even fuel pilot's energy) and you get uranium cost.

    P.S. by ship here I mean averaged ship. What ships to average - choose yourself and from those ships results will slightly differ.
  25. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    This sure would be simpler if I had not had to drop out of school to take care of the family... ugh... damn near 30 and can't do algebra lol. Anyway, lemme see if I can work this out... If I have the amounts of ore needed for an average construction (for now I'll not differentiate between ship and non-ship builds) I can view the amounts of each ore type as a fraction of 100. Then I can modify the ore prices with this by pricing them based on the aforementioned percentages of the whole build. This would then alter the prices for items based on percentage of each material needed as opposed to a flat uniform price for all ore types.

    So if Iron was say 70% of the whole I could simply say that iron ore is worth 70 UC, where as stone might be worth 0.5% and would be 1/2 a UC. Would that work?
  26. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    As simple universal tool, that might work. Noone said it'll be precise, but at least more accurate than what's there in first post now.

    Don't forget to apply availability later, that's only demand part!

    Real economy can flip drastically if someone will want to dig a in-asteroid station with asteroid consisting of iron. Then iron will cost nearly nothing, even though used in huge amounts. I'm actually doing this with a brother, but there's only two of us on the server, so it won't flip any economy: we have too many resources anyway. :)
  27. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    Now I just have to figure out how to calculate the supply. The question then becomes, do I use actual supply or theoretical supply in the formula. Lets say that there is 10 million kg of iron ore in storage across the server. That would be actual supply. But then there is maybe 1 billion kg of iron ore contained within the asteroids on the same server. which figure is factored, the actual supply or theoretical supply? Or perhaps both?
  28. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    There you should somehow calculate costs of converting 'theoretical' supply into 'actual' supply. Plus transport costs (for simplicity no transport cost).
    Costs are time. How much do you value your time? Or time of a worker you hire? How do you convert a minute wasted into UC?

    A hard question, anyway, for today I'm off.
  29. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

    I have a huge pile of additional work coming but it will be a few days at least. I am pretty sure I have solved all the issues now but I have to compile all the data and then make all the adjustments once that data is organized. At any rate I just wanted to state that I am working hard to integrate your suggestions and that this thing should be far FAR better than it is in its current state.
  30. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    We are still running in circles around the same mistakes:
    - You can't calculate demand!
    - Everything (including time) have different values for different people in different times and places under different circumstances.

    Even if you do all that work, it will be far better for the purpose of "best starting pricelist for mining company to start trade minerals on server" but still extremely bad as "universal tool to say that those values are good and fair for everyone wanting to trade".
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