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Less new features, more fixes please.

Discussion in 'General' started by Cassey, Feb 8, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    I've logged 665 hours into Space Engineers, per Steam. I know that adding new features is fun, and that fixing bugs is a drag, and that this is alpha and bugs should be expected, but there are a few that are driving me insane (roughly sorted):

    1) The biggest is the random "insta pop" of ships in close quarters. I was up until 3am building a new platform miner, finished it this morning. Parked it next to a rock wall. Came back this afternoon and found:

    http://puu.sh/fC6yH/f56dcddae3.jpg - all that is left of a 7x7 head drilling platform, (8) large cargo blocks, a large generator, 2 dozen thrusters and related parts.

    This seems a LOT worse for large ships than small ship, so much so I've stopped wasting time building large ship ones for use inside of asteroids, despite having plenty of maneuvering space.

    Note the sparks on the walls where there is no structure left, and envision one of those arms beating against the rock face like a zombie knocking on a door... The area was clean, no debris, and any that was around would have been collected by my spherical generator/collector rig elsewhere inside the asteroid.

    2) Ship connections. The landing gear bug is well known and I've posted about it several times with details as they occur. I can confirm the problem exist with connectors as well, it just takes longer, but I've come back into game to find my connected ships missing their connector, although parked in the same spot. I've been online when I've seen them explode.

    3) Rotor issues. I've seen the torque on a single rotor spin a 26mega kg ship around like a pinwheel, smashing the ship into anything in the area.

    4) Imbalance of mass reactions: I've seen my character bump a ship 100 times his mass and have it go spinning off into space. My character has tapped cargo bin templates and caused them to break. My character has bumped gyroscopes and broken them off the back of a cockpit. Really?

    5) Imbalance of object size to mass. I've seen cargo bins go poof and release rocks larger than they are - ditto for drills. Go up to such a man size rock and its 5ish kg - 10lbs, perhaps the size of a soccer ball, not a man. These large rocks then roll around and act like demolition balls in tight quarters.

    6) Immovable objects. Sometimes when mining an asteroid, from inside or out, a "chip" will be generated - a small part of the asteroid that wasn't quite mined. These chips are immovable, unlike floating objects. The net result is damage to ships that hit the chips equally running into a wall.

    I play on a dedicated server, so can't save and restart - these things are permanent for me, and often represent a good day of reconstruction time. Don't mind doing that once in awhile, but its all I've been doing while mining out this asteroid - no time to work on the station I'm building inside it since I'm constantly building mining ships that are blowing up for no valid reason.

    Client Save is enabled if any developer would care to login (servername "Borg"), although I seldom see these problems in the save file and so far, "banging parts" can be solved by a server restart.
     
  2. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    read my signature.
     
  3. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    Not helpful.
     
  4. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    Your post or his? I'm going to assume yours, because he's entirely correct.
     
  5. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    What? We are not allowed to provide feedback? I've been around software development for almost 40 years - I know the development cycle, I know developers, and I know that feedback is critical. You may have a different opinion, but I have a right to mine, so screw you.
     
  6. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    Your creation of this thread suggests otherwise.

    I'm gonna guess 40 months, and 36 of those were at a university.
    Implying I don't have a right to my opinon.

    Fun fact: every week is bugfix week. Don't believe me? Go look at some of the LP videos from a year ago and see how far the game has come.

    Hint: most of the fixes and improvements KSH have made were never even mentioned.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2015
  7. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    If you know the development cycle, then you'd know that in lieu of any truly major bugs, features continue to get added in. Unless there's something that prevents the software from running, or totally and completely unwarranted results (landing gears acting like connectors, for example), there is no reason whatsoever to stop adding features. Bugs and polish come in beta. Yes, feedback is critical, but you haven't mentioned anything in your OP that the developers don't already know about. Which brings the entire reason of your post to that of a whine.
     
  8. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    In addition to Ulfsark's sig, let me add mine to your list of reading material.
     
  9. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    now given the lack of details i have been able to glean this is on a MP server of some kind .

    1) are you sure it wasnt a griefer. even somone one you "know" can be a griefer and they could have just rammed the ship into the wall for "lolz".

    2) parts of ships arnt attracted by gravity. only components and powered mass blocks. when things go poof they drop the parts they have stored in them not the parts they have as part of the structure. so nothing to be atrracted

    3) see also, trash cleanup and max no of objects so they will have been cleaned up when you were offline

    4) connectors etc are an accepted issue and KSH willb eworking on them. it kinda takes time to work out whats going on

    5) things go poof. yep thats damage. now we have dammage effects we can start to see when they are about to go. oddly containers will be more prone to damage than armour. its just with armour yous ee it happen with deformation and can adjust it.

    6) cargo capacity is odd. honestly deal with it as that is a polish at the end not even a remotly critical aspect. especially when the server is set to 10X. honestly as game issues/realism its a tiny issue so yeah a giant rock can spawn out of a tiny container.

    7) those imovable objects are voxels. basically micro meteorites. so you just got to watch for it. trust me, when unlimited worlds were introduced i had entire untouchable asteroids spawn in on one of my mining ships crushing it and me these things happen.

    8) blocks breaking off the back of things. either report that as a direct bug and post a vid. thats an issue one that i will try to recreate. are you sure it wasnt a free floating block that had been detached before and you didnt notice?

    a few of us know what happened when the merge block had a bug and caused EVERYTHING to disconnect. im sure skel will add his gif of the event to show you REAL game breaking.

    9) ships moving when rammed. well if the dampeners are off, then thats just realistic physics. unlike early MP where the client would put a force onto anything and make it uncontrollable regardless of dampeners.



    in short.

    report bugs instead of complaining about bugs. be a solution not a problem
     
  10. 1BillionHex Trainee Engineer

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    Just my 2 pennies worth:

    When dealing with large projects with a great deal of interconnecting code/functions/game objects/etc, it is always best to try to resolve existing bugs before adding code which directly or indirectly makes use of that bugged code...

    SE is a great game but does have a few known issues. Some should be easy to fix (e.g. control seats with their unfinished appearance/faulty textures) and some not so straight-forward.

    Personally, I would feel better if I knew that existing bug fixes had a greater priority than new code/game features.
     
  11. spacedMatt Apprentice Engineer

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    I think what he means is spend more time on fixing bugs and less time on features, and in some ways I agree.
    We are very lucky to be updated every Thursday and it's something I always look forward to but I do think the lag issue should be first on the agenda as we've had so many great features added recently. The next one I'm looking forward to is planets with real gravity but I'd be quite happy to see bug fixes, optimizations and added options (like NPC block sharing) first.

    When Keen were doing the bug fixing before Christmas bringing out one feature and the rest being bug fixes and fine tuning, I honestly wouldn't mind and in fact would like it if it was done every other month.
    Anyway no complaints from me I'm very happy with how the game is being developed and trust all annoying bugs will eventually be nipped in the bud.
     
  12. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    Exactly spacedMatt - thanks.
     
  13. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    If you would like to be more proactive in helping to identify and hopefully remove more bugs then go to this thread here:

    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/ds-bug-smash-events-7265606?pid=1285926425#post1285926425

    Or continue posting bug reports in the bug forum. If you wish to just gripe then carry on.
     
  14. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    I was actually going to say the same thing. Textor would really like if there was a bit more activity in his bugtest servers.(yes, serverS. He got a second one.)
     
  15. galacticon Apprentice Engineer

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    Plz stop these posts
     
  16. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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  17. DaveUnder Apprentice Engineer

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    "CTG does what all of the buyers of all Early Access games are supposed to do, which is finding and reporting bugs."

    I agree to this, but I have founded myself thinking sometimes over whining or not whining topics.

    If one had free access to Early Access (Alpha etc), then ok, whining should be downgraded to minimum.
    Years ago Early Access or participating in Alpha phase was free and for closed group of people usually

    Recent years alot of developing companies have made early Access kinda part of their business model, go public right from the start to earn money to support development, use full player-base for debugging etc.
    You can play, but you have to be ready for major changes that might force you for clean start.

    :nono:
    For sure we can't expect from the whole player-base to understand the different stages of software development or why they have allowed to play ALPHA at first place.
    Some of us here are Players who have bought the game for playing it not for debugging it - Early Access does not say that this part of player-base can't participate or buy the game.
    And those Players do have different mindset compared to those who are willing to debug, help out or discuss in constructive way regarding how one or other feature should work out.
    Is it annoying from whining aspect - sure hell it is.
    :nono:

    NB! As "debuggers" , the casual players also have to pay for the product !!!
    When you already have to pay for something, you expect certain quality from what you pay.
    It's not right to justify it endlessly that we are in Alpha, It will be ready when it is ready etc.
    You are on the market with your product - and Players expect quality.

    What I want to say is that using this new Early Access business model - developers might need to adabt their development process to meet new circumstances.

    Like give out more detailed release schedule regarding different development stages, at least some estimates.
    Giving casual Players possibility to make decision that ok, then I will look back in 3 month, not hope that MAYBE next thursday things will be fixed.
    If not fixed - they will WHINE 2 minutes after update is released. And others have to live with that fact.

    Whining over whining is whining as well.

    Regards,
    Dave
     
  18. Valiance Apprentice Engineer

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    I have trouble agreeing with this point here. It's not the fault of a company if consumers don't read the label. It's true that the game is in the market, and there is at least the expectation that it should be playable with the least amount of bugs. That being said, if someone picks up the game and doesn't read the "Early Access" and joins in expecting no problems is surely to be disappointed.

    Posting the development schedule, while with good intentions won't change people from posting this same topic over again. It may give some of us a road map where the game is heading, but it's not gonna please everyone. Gamers are inpatient.

    You say it's not right to justify it's "Alpha" over and over again, (sarcasm enabled) well news flash for you, that is where the game is. lol People keep repeating this because others don't seem to understand, or are incapable *shrugs* (sarcasm off). However, sometimes those same people scream "Alpha" too much. It works both ways.

    If anyone has checked out steams other early access games, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that KSH puts a lot of effort into this games development. Releasing content and constant bug fixes in a single week is impressive, even if it's a small update. Larger game companies release content & bug fixes (even if serious ones) many weeks/months later. To say that this company hasn't put a lot of determination and quality into the product is just silly. It's not possible to squish every bug in a single week. Some other problems take so much more time, and I'm sorry for all of you but they can take weeks or even months to address. During this time, the company releases small content updates in-between these major changes to keep us busy/happy. It's not they're ignoring the issues, it's that some problems take longer than others to fix.

    I'd say we're extremely spoiled.

    I agree that people whine to much though, this is indeed true!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2015
  19. 1BillionHex Trainee Engineer

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    There is often confusion between the ideas of the software release life cycle and the software development cycle.

    Both are not the same... Ideally, each distinct part of the software release life cycle should be made up of many iterations of the software development cycle (or parts of it).

    That is to say: You come up with the concept of code, you evaluate it, you then code it, you then test that code, you then fix bugs, you then go back to working on the next bit of code.

    It seems so many people (speaking generally and not suggesting anyone in this thread) think that the alpha phase of development is solely used to get the code written and beta is where all the bugs are fixed.

    This could not be further from the truth... unless people think the bug fixing comes after going gold. (Scrub that, we have seen that exact thing happen with so many other games, applications and utilities LOL).
     
  20. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

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    These backseat developer wannabes amuse me greatly. Such loud whining in so many threads, nomnomnomnom.

    [​IMG] :D
     
  21. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    Still ego has a point. In other words don't tell the devs how to do their job. Here's my solution if you really want to help the devs go work at their company, or go into the code and show them where they made mistakes, ect, don't tell them how to make their game because they don't care about it they care about what problems you have found and what features you would like added. They are not asking you how they should approach bug fixing and optimization. Be reasonable guys.

    P.S. They have already did a feature freeze I don't think another one only a few weeks after the last one will help that much. What they really need to do is wrap up alpha and go into beta.
     
  22. Reident32 Trainee Engineer

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    Really, and more to the point - seriously?! People can whine all they like. If you don't like it, don't read the thread!
    I wish you all would quit with the whole "this is alpha" crap, it really isn't. I believe it's been titled "Early Access" because it's an "Early Access" game, not an "alpha".. For reference material, check this out -
    "Space Engineers is an Early Access game, which means that it is still in development but already in a very playable state and contains a vast amount of new features that have been added since its first release. The game is being improved on a regular basis through updates that add and polish features and content, optimizations and bug fixes

    Everything in the game is subject to change." - Quote taken from the horses mouth, page link below. http://www.spaceengineersgame.com/features.html

    Back to the OP's original topic, he has a point and it shouldn't matter whether you've been a development environment for 40 years or not. Introducing new content/features without at least fixing the previous feature's bugs is asking for trouble, plus it makes your work a lot harder to fix in the long run! To be blunt, I love the game but in my opinion I think Patchmas should be every 2 weeks rather than every week, that gives the team a weeks grace to fix something; before they put out new features.
     
  23. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    People really don't pay attention to the entire picture do they. Besides the major multiplayer bug issues their has been no bugs that have not been fixed by Keen if I'm wrong name me one (not including ones that have been fixed and have reappeared). The thing I hate is when people tell developers how to develop the game, but you know what I hate the most when people tell developers how to develop a game without knowing all the facts seriously guys I've been here since the start and besides those major multiplayer bugs I have never had a bug that was not fixed. Oh and for your information they have tried fixing the MP bugs awhile back and it caused more harm than good (like I said not be whole picture).
     
  24. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    Well there are still issues with pistons and rotors, but I wouldn't call them game breakers, just PITAs, not really worth the whining they are getting, because generally speaking in most games those are the kinds of things that break the most.
     
  25. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    Volfram -

    I started programming in 1975. Through my career in IT I was requested by DEC, Compaq, HP, and IBM to join their technical advisory boards, which I spent 2 decades on. I'm now semi-retired, consulting with client C-levels for a good living (6 figures last year working part-time) and work with a variety of organizations from Fortune 20 companies to Universities like Carnegie Mellon. Sorting problems, and offering insight on them is what I do for a living.

    Curious what your credentials are?

    Cassey
     
  26. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    In the Internet, anyone can be a god.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2015
  27. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

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    And until you post your personal information and a way to show that they are linked to this forum account they are absolutely meaningless.
     
  28. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    And if I posted my tax returns and linked-in address you would likely tell me those are faked as well... so whats the point?
     
  29. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    That isn't the point, the point is we don't care about your credentials, you may be familiar with waterfall development, KSH uses a form of sprinted development, and this isn't a completed game, so it will have bugs, that is the thing about early access, you pay for an unfinished product, if SE was in full release, then your complaints would go uncontested, but that's the thing, this isn't in full release, and games are treated differently then industrial software, where in industrial software, you need everything that it can do to run perfectly or you loose mega bucks, in game software you need to develop it efficiently or you have a hard time making any money at all.
     
  30. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    ~snip!~
    Why would we not claim they were faked? This is the internet; anyone can claim to be anything. You truly expect us to believe you just because you say so?

    Now: you post credentials that you have to know we have no reason to believe, then ask another person to provide similarly unverifiable information? This is perhaps the most genteel manner of comparing epeens that I've seen. This, in addition to mhlpern's valid point that your complaints are invalid considering SE's development method?

    The fact of the matter is that whenever anyone posts complaining about how they want fewer new features and more bug-fixing, they almost invariably claim to be highly experienced in game development. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's part of the forum drinking game. Your case would be far stronger if you could demonstrate that KSH's development process is hurting the game's development in a concrete way; the problem with that, of course, is that its development is ticking along quite smoothly.


    Also, random note here guys: why is it that almost every person claiming to be experienced in software development happens to
    1. use the old-style method of putting two space characters between sentences?
    2. put their user name, which is clearly visible at the top of each post, at the bottom of each post as well?
    Or am I just imagining this? I keep getting the very strong impression that we're dealing with a few people that keep making multiple accounts.
     
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