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Less new features, more fixes please.

Discussion in 'General' started by Cassey, Feb 8, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Cassey Apprentice Engineer

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    And with that, I'll make everyone happy and stop posting - just like most others have.

    Friendly place. not.
     
  2. Reident32 Trainee Engineer

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    The full picture? A bug is still a bug good sir, not matter how big or small it is - and they haven't fixed that one yet have they?
     
  3. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    And there he goes. Just like always, once they get defeated on the argument they leave.

    These kind of threads are awfully repetitive.
     
  4. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    ... if "most" others have stopped posting, how are you making "everyone" happy by doing so yourself? Either most people disagree with you, or most people agree with you; your sentence implies both are true.

    BTW: if you want people on these forums to listen to you:

    • don't claim to be an expert without substantiating your claims.
    • don't ask that feature-freeze be implemented on a game that is still having features added to it.
    • don't bring up bugs that have been known about for months without posting bug reports.
    • don't complain that dedicated servers aren't working when nobody expects them to be working yet.
    In other words, learn about the game you're playing before posting about it.
     
  5. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    I just remembered a great movie quote that sums up the world of alfa games: "It's an alien planet. A bug planet."
     
  6. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

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    Funny how most rabble-rousers instigate things and then act like the whole world is against them for no reason.
     
  7. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    You don't seem to understand MAJOR BUGS THAT ARENT CONSIDERED GAME BREAKING IS NOT A TOP PRIOTETY IF IT REQUIRES A MAJOR CHANGE TO THE ENGINE I still say this one thing this one important thing DEDICATED SERVERS WERE RUSHED AND SHOULDN'T HAD BEEN ADDED SO EARLY (P.S. The caps is because I'm using an iPad so I can't bold words so I use them instead).
    So it's not Keen's mistake for not fixing rotors and Pistons it's their mistake for releasing DS so early. People don't understand that though they want everything done right away and then complain how it doesn't work same with the original MP. Just shush up about these repeated threads and think about the overall mistakes (not just the ones current now).
     
  8. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    I'd like to make an observation, actually.
    So in short, any actual software development cycles he's been involved with happened more than 20 years ago, when "Waterfall" was still the cycle du-jour.

    Software development doesn't work that way anymore. Steam changed everything, and a lot of us are having to change with it.
    This is an excellent point, considering
    Put your money where your mouth is. Contact KSH staff and offer them your consulting services. You could get paid to whine and you wouldn't have to listen to us call you an entitled little brat.
    As has been pointed out, I never actually asked what your credentials were, and I don't have to tell you mine, however I will say that I've plastered them all over the forum. Notably, in the programming subforum, which... I note you've never posted in.

    Interesting.
    I actually only recently got out of this habit, though it really only took all of 5 minutes to break.

    You'll note I still use double-linebreak paragraphs like they're candy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2015
  9. Guest

    I'm fairly new to SE, but I don't understand why the forums absolutely are against any kind of negative feedback. Any time someone tries to point out a problem (like dedicated servers, rotors, landing gear, simspeed, etc.) they get immediately criticized for voicing their concerns. I get that it gets annoying and that sometimes there's someone who's overly dramatic or negative. It doesn't make sense however that after certain things haven't been fixed or are continually ignored, people like to pretend that nothing's wrong and that anyone who says otherwise is "entitled". I thought the forums would be a good place for discussion, but after spending some time browsing around, it's apparent that only fanboys and suck-ups are allowed to have an opinion. I thought the community of this game was better than that. :(
     
  10. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    Dgx-74,

    its less of making a valid observation and more of the manner in which it is done.

    for example.

    Wahh pistons broke my ship game suxks. is not exactly going to endear people to what your saying.

    where as a detailed bug report, saying what happened, the save and also steps to reproduce are actually welcome.
     
  11. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    I do think the OP has been taken apart rather aggressively and rudely. That does not negate the fact that this was a whine thread, albeit very calmly worded. The FACT that this is the wrong place for such a thread stands. Like a few people before have commented, post in bug reports, and bump some bug threads that you can contribute to.

    So it sounds like you made an account for the sole purpose of "tsk-tsking" at the forum. I don't know what threads you've looked at, or how much time you have actually spent browsing, but most threads I've seen/participated in have been normal discussions. Sometimes someone gets defensive or starts mocking someone else and things escalate. Or someone posts a whine thread and gets bit. Calling the community fan-boys and suck-ups is a useless, baseless insult.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2015
  12. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    You think maybe it's Cassey all over again?
     
  13. Conradian Moderator

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    Completely solid block prose without the double-space sentence starts? Highly probable yes.
     
  14. Guest

    Initially I had registered to talk about what I thought of the state of the game. Decided not too after spending a bit reading around the forum. Not to be rude or take sides, but just about every thread I see mentioning something wrong gets shot down by white knights whether the discussion was valid or not. I've also noticed a number of users in particular that seem to make it their job to criticize anybody who isn't saying nice things about the game. There's a lot of normal, civil talk around. However, it's pretty discouraging every update to see anyone with a legitimate concern brushed off because they said something negative about the game.

    Maybe the forums just don't work out for me, but I felt that I should give off my thoughts on recent events. Don't really know if there's been past problems regarding the OP or not, but I guess I'll do like him and leave. I like Space Engineers as is. I'd just rather not stick around its forum if anybody with a complaint is looked down upon.
     
  15. BoxxyBrown Apprentice Engineer

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    I'd be curious to see how many people are playing SE, compared to how many there were .. say 4-5 months ago. If it's not as high of a number you'd expect, then yes, the bugs are starting to become an issue. Cassey if you're still here, I think your concerns are warranted. These forums have gotten very toxic with people throwing the "it's an alpha game stop complaining" thing in the face of anyone that tries to voice their concern over bugs.

    Early Access is a fairly new marketing strategy. Right now, it's an amazing avenue for marketing. The thing is, though, that constant unsolved bugs and issues, are going to start turning people away. And tell their friends "oh it's a fun game, but it's just too buggy." I've tried to get a few friends into this game. They bought it, played for a bit, then lost interest because of how unstable some game systems are.

    I think normal software development isn't really applicable to early access. I can totally understand prioritizing features over fixes during a more closed development cycle. But, I think prioritizing stable releases is going to become more important to an early access game, due to the fact that the people themselves are a big portion of the advertisement (word of mouth, game reviews, etc).

    I love new features. I get excited every Wednesday night thinking "what are we getting tomorrow??" I've logged 800 hours. I still play and will continue to. But I'm only one person. Gotta appeal to the majority.
     
  16. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    Comparing the number of today with October's wouldnt be very fair... October had a Free Weekend so, It's normal for the player number to peak to 23k but other than that the game is being played more than in September, October, November and December last year with an average of 1k players more (In February). August had a little bit more players than now, most likely due to Summer vacations in the US and other countries.

    https://steamdb.info/app/244850/graphs/

    http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  17. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    The thing is people don't understand feature freezes don't work when they announced a feature freeze I thought it would make people happy but here's what we get "it's causing more bugs then it fixes this is terrible" now at least for some of them I doubt that's true but I have to say you asking to fix rotors and Pistons does not help anything. Now what we really need is people to allowed to code in new netcode (for volunteer work). The problem is in this world that will never happen. I don't really know any real pratival solution at this rate if you really want to fix the game FINISH THE ALPHA I think it's been long enough by now. What we could look into though as a temporary fix is try and create alternative ways to fix multiplayer. My solution is this if you want to play multiplayer (or at least dedicated) you have to enable it in the steam beta feature so you know what your getting into ahead of time (since people need it apparently) and you can treat that as the D.S. testing group,

    Edit: So basically keen shouldn't be making long term solutions yet won't work need to be at the end of alpha (or in beta) but we can find small solutions that will work for now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  18. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    He's going to disagree with you. The catch in his post is 'if it's not as high of a number you'd expect' which is easily translated to whatever arbitrary number I make up to bolster my claim. Won't matter if the numbers show they are rising on the stats, he'll more than likely point to the 1 mil sold post and claim 1 million people should be playing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  19. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    Ahem.

    Edit: BTW, Volfram, I didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing that typing style; it's just that it seems like a disproportionately large number of the people who post these kinds of threads use it, making me wonder if some of them were repeats.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  20. Volfram Senior Engineer

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    That certainly looks like a pretty stable playerbase with a general positive growth trend. In fact, cross-referencing with when the bugfix phase started(yes, that's week 2, deal with it), the bugfixing phase appears to have had zero effect on player saturation.*

    All cool, I wasn't trying to argue either. In the future, if you had a neutral tone in mind when writing something it's safe to assume I read it in a neutral tone. I may contribute more information because I believe it's always helpful to have more information when trying to make a decision or analysis. Personally I'd rather have a glut of useless information than have someone withhold a piece of critical information that they thought was useless.

    [edit]Actually my roommate pointed something out. Player saturation during the bugfix period is somewhat noisy. Everywhere else on the graph there's a periodic weekly rise and fall, with people playing on the weekends and not during the week. During the bugfix phase, the difference between the high and low points on this cycle are smaller, suggesting a lack of interest in new patches, the cycle is noisy, indicating a disruption in usual player behavior, and not only is there less of a difference between the peak and trough, but there's a fairly marked trend downwards, which is only mitigated by what I assume is a Steam sale just before July, suggesting a Bugfix patch is actually a really bad idea for maintaining player interest.

    Thanks, Dreokor, that was a fascinating piece of data.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  21. AtlantisThief Apprentice Engineer

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    300
    I must add, right now I am disappointed by Keen.
    They added features in a weekly base, features that caused me to jump and cheer. Then the feature freeze came, and I was even more jumping and cheering to get rid of those bugs that caused some pain in the a$§. But during that feature freeze, the bug fixing weeks, I had the feeling that EVERY patch during that time was causing MORE bugs then fixing. Just a personal feeling. After that time, the infitie world feature was added, it was awesome and cool! But still there have been bugs that caused some tears on my end, happily keen fixed them soon after relesaing the feature. But since then, I can't really point out a single overwhelming feature, that made me jump and cheer. Instead I started to get laughed from keen by those rather "cheap" features (GPS, Coms), they simply don't feel like much work behind them. When they THEN announced ME and showed that timeline.... I understood why the feature freeze was accepted, why those patches since then have been so poor. As of right now, I am totally for FINALY finishing adding features, cause I am happy with the game content by now, I simply want it to be playable and fluidly in MP on dedicated server survival mode. Stop adding features, fix current and long term bugs, deliver AI/NPC/Quest/Space Whales AFTER beta as a little bonbon and be happy.
    All feelings are my personal experienced feelings.
     
  22. BoxxyBrown Apprentice Engineer

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    Naw. I wanted to look at the curvature of sales to current players, to see the rate of growth.

    I get what you're saying, but that's not really going to show if people stopped playing due to their frustrations with bugs. I'd wager that a lot of people bought it, liked what they had to start with, rated it and said it's on it's way to a good game, but then as time went out stopped playing due to bugs or limitations and told their friends about why they stopped playing, possibly halting future sales.

    I'm not trying to say people are jumping ship, or the sky is falling, I'm only saying it's a possibility, and therefore also saying that it's possible prioritizing some of the larger bugs may be healthy for the game. At least at this point in development.
     
  23. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    2 Issues with this part right here.

    1. ME has a different team working on it which means that work on SE was not hampered by ME nor were resources pulled from SE to work on ME.

    2. They announced ME not too long ago, but they had been working on it far longer than you seem to think they have been. In fact, I took the time to actually compile a list of everything that has been implemented in SE during that time frame. I really didn't expect to have to use the list so soon.

     
  24. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    Keen has taken good care to keep the community involved in the game, as for frustration with bugs (if you go to the world of alfa games expecting it to be pretty like a vacation resort, you will find it is a bug planet, like in starship troopers) they did have a feature freeze that recently ended
     
  25. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    People are very spoiled because like I said we have about 4 to 5 major multiplayer Engine problem bugs (that requires rewrite of netcode which you do not understand difficulty) that have not been fixed. Every other bug I have seen has disappeared (maybe it came back but was crushed again). Here's a question do you guys work for keen do you know that they might have people working on this issue perhaps. Maybe this is the reason why the updates have been so small (doubt it but then again I've doubted stuff like this before and it has happened). The point is I don't care about your coding experiences unless you know the inside of keen. They have actually been multiple attempts at a better netcode and all have failed so far so it's trial and error I guess.
     
  26. ltdan83 Apprentice Engineer

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    I think both camps (the "IT'S ALPHA camp" and the "I want new features and bugs fixed and I want it now camp") Have some legitimate argument's and concerns.

    You're right, the game is in alpha, but Alpha in game development doesn't mean the same thing it did 5-10 years ago. While there are early access warnings slapped all over the product and the website and steam you are selling a product. The company has no promises to keep and no requirements to finish the game. That's not to say that the consumers of the product don't expect the company to keep the unpromised promise. In reality the seller does have obligations albeit only in the consumer's minds. Fail to meet those and your company will end up like the Brian Williams of the gaming industry, no trust and no loyalty.

    Then there is the boxed release. Even though it is labeled as early access many of the consumers who chose to travel to a brick and mortar store to purchase their pc games(especially those uneducated walmart customers) don't or won't understand what all that entails.

    On the other hand it IS alpha. Anyone who has played other crappy alpha games should understand that that means the game might not work, it might never get finished, you might not like the way the devs are going with the game. Buying an Early Access game is like nothing most users have ever experienced until Minecraft. However just because you dropped some cash doesn't mean you have a stake in the company or you have any right to dictate what Keen should do or what you expect of them. If you don't like the way the game is going just don't buy the next one.

    That being said I love the game, I'm up to 300+ hours which is probably more than any game I've played since my WWII Online days. If the game were to end right now I would have gotten my $20 out of it and the $100 I spent buying copies for all my friends.

    The point I'm trying to make is that the ALPHA ARMY and the It's My Game and I Want It Now mob both love the game or we wouldn't be arguing about it in the forums.
     
  27. Textor Junior Engineer

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    Keen has in no way violated this principle. Just because people want features immediately or want certain bugs fixed does not obligate Keen to re-prioritize their internal development roadmap to accommodate them. If Blizzard gives people early beta access to one of their games, they don't restructure their development to accommodate their player's demands (though at this point they are also beta testing and not alpha testing-- most feature changes at this point are balancing issues rather than implementation.) They have updated every single week unfailingly and therefore are keeping the implied promise to continue the game.

    Most consumers don't understand half of what they are buying. Most consumers have no clue how that magic box called a computer works, and most consumers can't be bothered to learn anything about it or the software that runs on it.

    Exactly.

    This might be true, but I feel the "Alpha Army" has a much better point-- they are coming from the reasonable position that the "want it now mob" is having an entitlement problem and constantly are trying to raise the expectations of what the devs owe everyone. The thing I and I'm sure others are trying to prevent:

    This is Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things

    Pertinent excerpt:
     
  28. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    Here is the problem though, what you are saying is entirely based on your opinion of the state of the game right now.

    Here is what I think: 95% of people posted positive reviews, and then 99% of those people were eaten by velociraptors, thus not allowing them to change their opinion on steam.

    The only reason mine is 100% untrue, is because velociraptors are extinct. I mean "It's a possibility" isn't really a thing. There are millions of possibilities. Constructing people's opinions to support your own, arguing what is and isn't the majority/minority... these aren't legitimate ways to make a point. Likewise, with the OP: Claiming you have 400 years experience with something... no.

    I mean here are the Facts: Dedicated servers aren't as optimized as we would like them to be. The game is developing in alpha, moving towards beta. We have few announced features left.

    Everything else is white noise, and just because there are a few people who enjoy trying to make that white noise into something it isn't... doesn't really mean that what they are saying is all that important.

    Edit: And look, people may find this cold and say that it's dismissive... well, once you've dealt with the Same bloody argument being repeated verbatum for greater than a year, and the same response has worked for that entire year, and all the doom and gloom nonsense parotted in all those long forgotten posts turned out to be nonsense....

    ...Well, what would you be, if not dismissive? I mean someone earlier mentioned that all these posts look similar. It's not because the posts are written by the same person, it is just that the same argument has been raised so many times it's all running together. Thing is, it comes and goes as certain features and optimization passes are done. So it was huge at some point, went away, came back, went away came back... over and over and over.

    Edit edit: Also, it's not really all that big of a deal. If you look at the front page, you typically get 1-2 of these posts a day. The same responses, the same counter responses... If this was a topic about something other than this, if this was about features to be implemented, people would be equally as annoyed with it... I know, because when there WERE feature posts like that, people got annoyed with it.

    95% approval is an ANOMALY for early access games. There are only a handful with that kind of support. So, the fact that it is a thing, absolutely does matter and absolutely Can be held up.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  29. Reident32 Trainee Engineer

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    Hang on a minute... Earlier on in the thread you said they weren't important because they were not game breaking - if it's a major bug then that's a problem that NEEDS to be fixed sooner rather than later! Even sooner if it's going to take a while to re-write the entire module. That's like knowingly driving down the road with a bolt missing from one of your engine mounts and ignoring it until it the sheer vibrations start to cause a problem, it will run smoothly to a degree but everything else will give up around it in less time.
    Tell me if I'm wrong here, but if multiplayer is one of the intended core sets of functionality in the game; one that enables players to play with friends, without the need to rebuild your stuff every time you close the game down due to some weird glitch - then surely they should be working on that, making that smooth so that when they do bring more blocks/functionality into the game; they don't have to worry so much... Maybe that's just my common sense talking, prioritising the longer/harder tasks first to get them done and out of the way..
     
  30. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    Thank you Textor, for sending me on an epic Wiki Walk.
    Ash87, good summary.
     
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