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Manned ball turrets?

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Attackapaca, Jun 2, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Attackapaca Trainee Engineer

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    Ya know, like these:
    [​IMG]
    We've managed larger turrets via rotors and separate ships, but it'd be nice to have an easily accessible, smaller set of turrets that you could access just by walking down a hallway in a ship and hopping in through a port in the floor, rather than having to go flying about the exterior of the ship to get there. Plus, the current model of manned turrets (via rotors) means physical instability for the main ship; it has to be large and can't turn even remotely fast or the whole thing flies apart.

    They wouldn't be particularly all-powerful- just mounted with, say, an MG or a singular rocket launcher, mostly for the sake of taking out pursuers, small targets, etc.
     
  2. FatalPapercut Senior Engineer

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    1,197
    Huh...for all the weapons threads, this is the first ive seen that brings these up, i'm impressed.

    It could easily fit on a 3x3 large block base with an access hatch on the middle block, the turret itself having a 90 degree vertical swing and a full 360 degree rotation.

    With a more limited firepower, it probably wouldn't be of too much use on larger capital ships, but they'd work perfectly for smaller patrol/exploration craft.

    I dare even say if implemented they would go a long way toward development of larger manned turrets, too.
     
  3. GraphicsAndBeer Apprentice Engineer

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    Heck yes that would be frakin' awesome!!!

    And it would give more than one person in a ship something to do during a fight.
     
  4. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    I actually like that in Space ENGINEERS you have to ENGINEER the turret. The better design you come with, the better funcionality it provides. All I need to be happy with turrets as they are is a better way to attach the "small ship" custom built turret on large ship/station than landing gears. Either directly make it possible to combine small and large block or at least provide a way to attach them (like rotor being able to connect small and large block).
     
  5. GraphicsAndBeer Apprentice Engineer

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    132
    I think you are right, building is the better way.

    But I can't get a small ship to stick to a large ship to save my life. 6 landing gear locked on, rips off. Sh8t goes nuts with "shoot moving targets on". Maybe that new merger block will be the key IF they allow small to large shop docks.
     
  6. Attackapaca Trainee Engineer

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    11
    Exactly! Just to add an idea:
    what if you built your turret as a small-ship-sized blueprint within a certain-shaped boundary (for a ball turret, say, it'd be a sphere), and it'd have to have a gyro and a, say, rotary frame, or some other part that marked it as a turret piece and would "connect" it to the ship. Then, you'd go to your big ship on which you wanted the turret, put down a block that designated a certain area as a turret-region (or something, I dunno), and then you'd just select your blueprint, put it directly on said turretblock with correct orientation, and then just get to building. The physics mesh for the turret, however, would just be treated as the boundaries of the boundary shape used to design the turret.
    ^about this: the thing is about the physics mesh of the ship is that it has to be one entity; otherwise you get the kind of self-collision that we see with the current rotor-based large turrets. Thus, if we just use the boundary as the mesh, the mesh of the ship will include the turret, rather than being separate and thus able to collide with it. It won't be entirely accurate, but given the size of small ships it should be fine, and would run faster. I would say we should just regenerate the physics mesh to correct the mesh for the rotation of the turret, but from my experience in game development I know that that can be slow as hell.

    So, yeah! Players could still design their own turrets, but we wouldn't have to deal with the catastrophic destruction of current manned turrets! :D
     
  7. Volthorne Apprentice Engineer

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    You mean the hideous monstrosities that are either A) really easily disabled or B) don't actually work very well? Yes, by all means let's keep those!
     
  8. wankerstein Apprentice Engineer

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    Current 'built' turrets are just awful. I don't see the point in wasting time and effort 'engineering' something that doesn't function well. That being said, I do not want a pre-built manned turret block. Honestly, I don't like the pre-built automated turrets either. I'd rather there be blocks specifically for making mechanisms for turret-type structures that could be used for building manned and automated varieties.
     
  9. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    what wankerstein said
     
  10. wigster600 Trainee Engineer

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    I think manned turrets should take priority over auto ones, since the auto guns are pin point accuracte it makes them a tad overpowered at the best of times.
     
  11. TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    542
    The game could provide the turret and 1/2 mount points for small ship parts. :)
    (If they allow cross size mounting/placing). It would have to be much larger for large mounts I guess.
     
  12. BeerTruckDriver Trainee Engineer

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    I love this.. yes yes, make this happen devs.
     
  13. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    I actually like that in REAL LIFE the vastly easier to use, reliable, efficient, and cheap option would be the one that 100% of actual Engineers would go for.

    But yeah keep pushing that "muh engineering".
     
  14. Aridhol Trainee Engineer

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    38
    @Hatchie

    Haven't you read the opening line that says 'engineers make it work with the least amount of original ideas'? If it works, do it. Don't waste time with unconventional weird turrets like we have now.. a manned ball turret would be outstanding.

    Limited to large ships, of course. A true way to have a battlecruiser with multiple engineers manning the systems and keeping the ship in tip top shape and safe from ne're-do-wells
     
  15. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    7,063
    do we have to have this discussion again...

    yes custom turrets might be worse. do you know why? because it is limited by the game.

    now lets have custom turrets where you don't have a grid and have to make every piece in cad including things like the barrel and the mounting but also every part of the reload system and every bolt. this will make the custom turrets more efficient than the prebuilt ones.

    a arbitrary game limit should not be taken for reality. custom turrets would be a great addition because they indeed allow us to engineer more.

    or should we have prebuilt ships. after all the grid is very space inefficient.

    Aridhol, where I'm from engineers always try to improve the systems they have :).
     
  16. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    And you continue to ignore that "Engineering" is more than "just building whatever". But whatever.
     
  17. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    TO THE WIKIPEDIAS ;)

    pay attention to the invent, design, build, maintain and improve part
     
  18. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    Know what is a vast improvement from an oversized, inefficient, difficult to use, and prone to exploding custom built turret is?

    A component sized turret that is compact, efficient, easy to use, cheap, that wont explode when you turn too fast.

    And I guess you're just going to ignore all the quotes from the loading screen, too, because the only aspect of real engineering that you care about is building oversized, inefficient, difficult to use, expensive things, regardless of how much it goes against the very philosophy of making things small, efficient, easy to use, and cheap.

    Like what every real engineer actually does for a living.
     
  19. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    194
    Yeah, thats why we need improvement to those points so built turrets are good to use but not replacing them with prebuilt entire turrets. Yes, engineering is about MAKING thing effective and cheep etc etc... MAKING in mean of design them not have them handled designed by someone else.
     
  20. N7Mitch Trainee Engineer

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    I would like to see this in the game. Building things like this is an option but it isn't very good, reliable or that strong. I think that any sort of new turret would be great. Preferably something slower firing, using shells opposed to bullets or missiles. Although manned ball turrets would be good, I would personally prefer to be able to control the turrets remotely (from a first person perspective the same) from a control panel (for weapons systems - separate to normal controls maybe? Of course it would be good to have both types!
     
  21. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    But an oversized, inefficient, difficult to use, expensive player built turret will never be more compact, efficient, easy to use, and cheap, than a component turret. Unless you want to come up with some convoluted, overly complex workaround to this simple solution.
     
  22. HitryiPryanik Apprentice Engineer

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    There is enough to add ball joint in the game.
    So cockpit+gyroscope+gun = manually controled turret.

    Or camera subsystem+remote control
     
  23. Vortexthewise Apprentice Engineer

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    Alright I've got to jump into this one!

    First, Attackapaca, Love this suggestion. It would provide more options for small ships, and look really cool!

    Now, into the fray!

    Real engineers do use pre-made components, and most of engineering is finding ways to build new devices out of existing ones.

    However, sometimes an engineer uses pre-made components due to budget constraints, or time constraints, and not because they don't want to engineer new ones.

    Sometimes engineering projects don't go the way that the engineer wants to, because they are forced to work with pre-made parts, and therefore have to design around these constraints.

    There are entire engineering corporations centered around prototyping, and they regularly engineer new parts and components. I have been in situations where parts where built instead of ordered, to fill specific engineering needs. Although the basic ideas was copied, the actual parts were made custom.

    I do agree that we should be able to have a few pre-made turrets. I however do not agree with the opinion that building custom turrets is a bad idea. A turret is an idea, and a concept. One way to implement the concept is to have a pre-made device. another is to build your own using concepts and ideas that work.

    Leonhardt, you are making quite a few assumptions here. A few of them are: You will not have access to better and more efficient parts, the current devices we have will not be improved/changed/have different sizes, and people will not be able to engineer efficient and effective turret mechanisms.

    The game will have better mechanisms in the future, and we will have access to more efficient means of constructing custom turrets. They may not be perfect, but neither are any of the ships built by players.

    The point is to build something as well as you can, test it, and refine the design. That is what real engineers do.
     
  24. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    I never said custom built turrets were a bad idea.
    Just that Component turrets were monumentally more compact, efficient, easy to use, and cheap to build.
    And that saying that custom built turrets should take precedence over component turrets because "THE GAME IS ABOUT ENGINEERING THEREFORE THAT MEANS WE SHOULD BUILD EVERYTHING WITH NO REGARD TO OTHER APSECTS OF ENGINEERING AS LONG AS WE BUILD EVERYTHING FROM SCRATCH ITS AUTOMATICALLY BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER OPTION!!!!" was hilariously misguided.
     
  25. Vortexthewise Apprentice Engineer

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    462
    Leonhardt: You seem to think that I am attacking you. If you read the post, I offered a realistic opinion and never said that custom built turrets should take precedence... only that they should not be written off entirely.

    Your response here made me chuckle a bit.

    If you read my post correctly, you would see that I have been in engineering situations. I never said that any aspect of engineering should be ignored.

    I am curious, What parts of engineering would be ignored by what I said? If I don't like something, as an engineer, I modify or refine it.
     
  26. Attackapaca Trainee Engineer

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    11
    FOR THE RECORD: I'd like it to make it clear that THIS is what I mean when I say "custom turrets". I'm NOT referring to the self-destructive monstrosities we can only create at this point, but rather a theoretical, more streamlined, less buggy, and in fact FASTER method.
    DEMONSTRATION VIDEO:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Fj-UYfdR4&feature=youtu.be
    We could just use some sort of encompassing U hinge around the turret body as the connector between the turret and its parent ship. Energy, etc. would be transferable from the ship to the turret.

    Again. Just to clarify. No one wants to deal with what we've got now.
     
  27. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    As an engineer, you should instinctively go for the solution that is the most compact, efficient, easy to use, and cheap.
    The custom built turrets that people hail so much as being "ENGINEERING!!!!!" are none of those, compared to what a ship component sized turret would be.
     
  28. Attackapaca Trainee Engineer

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    indeed. However, the whole idea of the game is creating things.
    ALAS: we must combine the two. Thus, the turret domain system: you build a turret design (maybe even just a blueprint or something), then fit it into the turret domain- plug it in, so to speak- and then said turret design is treated as a singular part (until it gets blown up). We could get new, smaller cockpits- maybe even just a set of handles and a mounted stool- and the plugged-in turrets would get energy from the parent ship; thus, all the pieces it would require would be a weapon, a gyro (maybe even not; that could be integrated into the domain's connecting hinge), and a seat.
     
  29. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    the problem is that the "compact" solution only can be the most compact due to arbitrary game limits. furthermore I think everybody can make a very nice small ship turret in a 15X15X15 block.
     
  30. HitryiPryanik Apprentice Engineer

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.