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Marek streams suggestion

Discussion in 'General' started by Light_gemini, Jan 22, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

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    I like it a lot that the CEO and original designer of SE, Marek, makes streams of himself playing his games.
    I have a suggestion though. Marek should stop playing like he is playtesting stuff and generally goofing around. Its fun and useful but it would be far better if he starts a serious offline "campaign". Pick the lone survivor or crashed red ship start and seriously play all the way to end game in survival mode, were he has no longer any need to get more resources for a long time and have several big ships that can do everything he may need and try to go and comeback from a planet expedition.

    This is the only way he can understand the real status of the game and the shortcomings many players are tired of pointing out.

    Its the only way for him to naturally experience the
    -uniform and uninteresting boring exploring
    -the too slow mining
    -the odd asteroid generation
    -the easy to achieve end game ( all resources and needs covered for ages)
    -the retarded AI
    -the broken autopilot
    -the planetary woes
    -the lack of goal or gameplay beyond building stuff until you have all you need
    -a purpose for what you build beyond serving as means to build more
    -the shortfall of antena and laser ranges
    -the extra work and clumsiness of making good interiors without compound blocks

    And many more shortcomings that scream for attention. Goofing around and testing random things without ever leaving the starting base or letting the players do stuff while just looking around isnt giving him any clue on how the game actually plays, or what experience the game is really offering to players.
     
    • Agree Agree x 33
  2. Aracus Senior Engineer

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    @Xocliw This is a really good idea for the next stream :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. Kingfishercritic Apprentice Engineer

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    A bit of playing in MP survival would also highlight the somewhat lackluster PVP.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. Aracus Senior Engineer

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    Assuming he reaches the point he can PVP
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Sergeant Snuggles Junior Engineer

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    I'm sure it will just be more "I still dont like these particles" :p
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
  6. Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    I can suggest it to him :).
     
    • Like Like x 18
    • Friendly Friendly x 5
  7. Sergeant Snuggles Junior Engineer

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    It's the Jedi! Quick someone warn the Empire!
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  8. g4borg Apprentice Engineer

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    whats wrong with the resources game, you sure, it would be interesting to mine for them forever? you basicly complain about too fast reaching endgame, and too slow mining in the same post.
    so i am curious.

    if it would be multiplayer, resources might be more scarce, once people start to own and defend it. its funny the first time to start off in emptyness, but why would you do it to yourself in solo play more than a few times?

    so while i agree to your notion, i can't agree to all points; at a certain level, survival becomes boring, if its constantly against the engine; it's good you can reach some level of freedom in a few days play. for me that part of the game is okay, not that it couldn't become better, but without multiplayer, it makes all no sense, since at that time, the problems are your friendly neighbours and the occasional intruder, if it would happen on an online server.
    in fact, consta-spawning npcs and events in an area around the game character, without some deeper procedural sense, are rather the elements, i would remove or improve, since they feel more like dev effects, than actual final gameplay (the meteor showers, the spiders...). but you cover that somewhat with the asteroids, which are not spawning in belts or areas, just randomly all over the place.

    to the rest: agreed.
    generally, i find it good, that a ceo of a gaming company even actually plays the games.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. AdmObir Apprentice Engineer

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    While I agree that this is a good idea, as survival is surely in need of some serious love. I do have to state, that it would make for a boring stream to watch.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. reddy Trainee Engineer

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    I think that Marek knows exactly what he's doing. I noticed that in his streams he's mostly focused on things that make the game not fun and points them out.

    The game is more or less ruined by the countless small shortcomings, glitches and a few major bugs. As he correctly pointed out in the last Friday stream, game immersion is currently impossible.
     
  11. frannic Apprentice Engineer

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    that's the point...
    He will notice it too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Welcome to the sandbox! Shouldn't have bitched back when they were experimenting with Scenarios if you wanted goal-driven gameplay.
    Honestly, this problem is vastly overstated (and Keen has already elaborated on why we probably wont be getting compound blocks in Space Engineers, so you really should drop it).
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Meeep Trainee Engineer

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    I still don't know why they dont want to make compound blocks.
     
  14. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    I didn't watch the stream, was it any good !

    The first one was a little odd. I think it would maybe better to tell the dev team direct, what needs to be changed. Then tell the players via the stream what they are thinking of changing. That way the dev team won't feel like they are getting undermined publically. I'm not saying that is how they feel, just seems that way to me.
    Just my view.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Because implementing them would cause a major strain on system resources that simply isn't acceptable. The way compound blocks work is by using a single "small grid", with "large grid" blocks being conglomerates of the smaller ones. While this works fine for static grids (like, say, castles), the moment they have to deal with physics issues the game slows to a crawl (see: destroying castles).
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    That's not necessarily mutually exclusive. Mining being too slow can just mean you spend too large a percentage of your game time mining. At the same time, there could be a lack of structured gameplay to give you new ideas for tasks so "endgame" is reached too quickly. In the case of SE I definetly think the latter is the case: The game stops being terribly interesting from a gameplay point of view once you have a basic infrastructure. At that point the gameplay simply doesn't change. I think mining being too slow and tedious mostly refers to planetside mining.

    Well sure, if survival is a grind it becomes boring. But at the same time, limits create interesting gameplay and challenges. If you reach creative mode freedom in a free hours, that means survival mode is essentially just a few hours long, because after that you might as well play creative directly.


    I'm not so sure about the small things being the problem. I find the game is pretty immersive when you start out and build your first few craft. The immersion kinda breaks down when you want to do more than basic building. There is just no coherent whole to explore or experience, it's all disconnected stuff (spiders, exploding dogs, weird meteors, trade/abandoned ships without purpose, you get the picture).

    But scenarios were and are the entirely wrong approach. A "win" condition won't suddenly make the game more meaningful. We don't need the goals themselves, we need a better journey.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Respectfully disagree.

    Space Engineers is inherently a sandbox. There are lots of things you can set yourself out to do; none of them are inherently meaningful. Scenarios would have allowed Keen to tell stories, to make campaigns, to give you concrete objectives to work towards without compromising the core sandbox gameplay.

    Buuuuuuut the community got pissy that they were working on those tools instead of other stuff, so they've been abandoned for the time being. Whoops.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Zyfe Trainee Engineer

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    The problem isn't lack of scenarios, it's lack of structure in the current game. There is literally nothing to do other than to build a ship to mine resources.

    Sandbox games can have a point to them without required hard defined goals. In fact, SE has a goal - mine resources to make bigger ship to mine more resources to make a bigger ship. There just needs to be a bit more depth added to that.
     
  19. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    That's like saying all there is to do in Minecraft is punch trees to get wood to mine blocks. You're not only ignoring all the other stuff (exploring to find new randomly-spawned ships, fighting pirates, building pretty stuff) that that first step enables you to do, but also discounting that through the magic of "Scenarios" Minecraft was able to take that basic sandbox environment and let people use it to create epic RPG adventures or randomized roguelike dungeoncrawlers.

    Scenarios were a brilliant feature I can only hope they come back to soon. They would have been the lifeblood of the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

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    Comparing Minecraft to SE only makes it worst for SE. SE cant still compete with Minecraft in things to do and craft.
    You said the awesome sandbox of MC wad the base for epic rpg and adventure, well SE right know isnt that awesome base its almost there but not yet. Scenarios wont make it a better sandbox and that was the complain back there.

    I personally find scenarios a waste of time. This is not a mission based spacesim or a GTA with sidequest challenges. Goals and challenges should arise naturally from the own sandbox. Take MC as example, to make your cool diamond tools you had to dig down to the bottom, and it was an adventure on its own if you did it early. What can SE offer? randomly fly from uneventful rock to rock till you find gold or platinum? Pirates are certainly not going to offer a challenge in that.

    Main reason for OP suggestion is that this lack of natural challenges or adventure is heavily noticeable. Any new player coming ftom MC, 7d2d or Ark is going to feel this is a shallow and biring sandbox. I can even imagine what reviewers that take a minimunm of time playing are going to say about it, and its not good.

    Marek is the only one that can see this and judge what needs to be done using the time and resources they have, but he needs to see it to exactly know. We have no clue how detached he is from current game state or what ideas are being cooked. If he experiences the game to its full at least we can be sure he will do what he has to do, rather we like it or not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  21. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    545
    And you are just going to assume that you know better what the community wanted, and assume what they actually wanted was scenarios? Keen could tell me a story, but honestly I didn't buy this game to be told a story, there are other games by other devs I'd turn to for that.

    And how does structure compromise sandbox gameplay? What do you think is it that creates gameplay? I think it's structure, rules. How do you tell an interesting story without dealing with challenges or limitations? You probably want to tell me that I can make my own rules, and I do to an extent, but I buy a game to provide me with something that I didn't already have. If I imagine all the limits and challenges myself, why do I even start up the computer?

    First of all, the vanilla Minecraft of 2010 is no longer a standard you can measure current sandbox games against. Minecraft was new and unique (to a wide audience, anyways), a newer game needs to offer more, not less. Secondly, you are falsely equating exploration in minecraft to exploration in SE. In minecraft, you had ravines, caverns and the nether, which you could explore for specific materials. In SE you have samey asteroid fields with abandoned ships you can just as well look at in the workshop and the materials spread evenly everywhere. In Minecraft there are fantastical landscapes and tons of biomes in a procedural world. Even though I can no longer play MC (and certainly not vanilla MC) for any length of time, it's still fun just too find a cool-looking base spot among, say, floating islands in MC. In SE, the planetary landscape and flora are beautiful, but they lack the feeling of seeing something completely new an unique that MC has.

    As to the last point, perhaps I am just ignorant but who cares about minecraft scenarios? In the communties I have been in, they always seemed like a sideshow to the regular sandbox game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. frannic Apprentice Engineer

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    I was just wondering what does a "sandbox" game mean?
    It is an open world that does not restrain you en does not force you to play missions or a story line doesn't it?
    So if there is a story or some missions then i could choose to play them or choose not to play them.
    I think that is the beauty of a sandbox game.
    Then the obvious thought that comes to my mind is, let's have a story in there, and let there be missions and scenario's and let me choose if i want to play that way or not.
     
  23. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

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    Xocliw actually does streams like this, perhaps he needs to advertise them better. I watched this last Tuesday's stream and it had an exciting ending.
     
  24. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Have you actually read what I typed? The community didn't want scenarios. There was backlash, and that's why Keen stopped focusing on them. I consider that short-sighted and misplaced.

    Then again, you're missing the point: Scenarios wouldn't have just let Keen tell you a story, they would have given the community the exact same tools; time and time again, I've seen some of the best games carried strongly on for years and years on the back of community-made content with those sorts of tools. See: Starcraft, Minecraft. It isn't just that Scenarios would have been a way for Keen to deliver campaigns or minigames or whateveer to us, its that we the community could have played with those tools and shared our own ideas, done things the developers would never think of.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  25. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    I think SE has kind of floated away from the engineering aspects of the game. Skinning a ship versus designing one to take advantage of attributes.

    Marek needs to sit down and play the game for a week... not an hour.

    Start from the first planetary spawn and just sit down and play... on a rented SERVER.

    Don't worry about possible features or lighting effects, how cool the models look... but focus on the game mechanics and the bugs.
     
  26. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Out of curiosity, how would playing on a server be at all relevant?

    We already know that netcode is one of their primary concerns, so as to fix server-related bugs. Marek is aware of this. The developers are aware of this.
     
  27. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    I dont mind that he is playing it like he is QA testing it for now, because he has stumbled across some of the most glaring issues and has set goals to fix them, but like some of the others have said, he needs to participate in the survival experience. I suggest they create a persistent faction based world which Marek joins and plays so he can get a feel for being a necessary component of a functioning team of people in all stages of game progression. It would be nice if there was a small rival faction of players to help him get a feel for player interactions and how they influence gameplay strategies.
     
  28. frannic Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree he should actually play the game.
    He might have a lot of fun playing and maybe he will get some new inspiration this way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. frannic Apprentice Engineer

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    Or get really frustrated and rage quit:D
    (Just joking ofcourse)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. Malware Master Engineer

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    Nonsense. This is a huge misconception. Yes, the full implementation as it is in ME would not work well in SE. But the lesser one which would solve most of the placement problems in SE would not make any difference, because you wouldn't need the extra blocks for the extra space you'd need to work around the current limitations.

    People, keep asking. I have submitted my technical suggestion to them. They probably won't listen simply because they've decided we don't need them, so we have to change their mind.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
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