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New information about the development

Discussion in 'General' started by bleakhead, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    90
    Hello,
    last weekend I viewed the steam reviews of medieval engineers and the community is not amused.
    Space engineers had the 6th-anniversary update and medieval engineers twittered about that. So I asked the team what the development status is.
    The answer
    "The Keen Software House Team is currently focused on the PC version of Space Engineers and the Xbox One port of Space Engineers. We'll have more news about Medieval Engineers in the near future."
    (https://ibb.co/j6GDHx8 | https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0yP6vBKA57-6qlu2zAhWuKHa-tiXw7N/view?usp=sharing)
    [​IMG]

    I think this is a little bit weird because I remember, that the release of space engineers should be a good sign for the development of medieval engineers. But currently, there is NO development on medieval engineers. It is not a scam but its also not transparent. So I can understand if some players are not in a good mood.
     
  2. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,774
    I can not say that this is fact, just my opinion. I think the man (and woman) power is not there to focus on both. I think ME will start getting more attention once they get SE to a certain level, then they will go back to focusing solely on ME for a while.
     
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  3. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    two issues, one is the stoppage of continued ME development. ok fine. we live with that knowing it's early access...

    but the second issue is incredulous. it is something i have never seen any company with a client base do. and it is absolutely unforgivable. and that is the complete and utter abandonment of this forum and the ME support site. you guys have seen me post tests, from naked engineer to where the taint is, for almost a year now. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE EMPLOYEE OF KEEN READING, CARING, or DOING ANYTHING with the existing ME community. we have been abandoned... literally, figuratively, and factually. @Dan2D3D is the only one holding any line here as he tries his best on the steam forums and i want to recognize his honorable effort as a fan of ME, Dan i know you are the last knight standing! and we thank you for that, and i know you are the only one that finally got someone to remove that naked engineer post on the support site... :)

    that second issue is real pisser. how many copies of ME were sold? five years later Keen doesn't assign an intern to the forum. the test server 0.7 was a lie because not a single player suggestion was realized. every single support ticket has zero - yes, zero, eyes reading it. ever. not a single one of those suggestion for improving ME after 0.7 was ever looked at. right now the support forum is a dishonest, shameful face to Keen. go find my Taint post... there is one closed support ticket saying they implemented Oak Branches becoming Acorns and that too is a lie. never happened but they closed the ticket as solved, wtf ffs...

    it is one thing to pause the software development, it is another thing entirely to stop caring about those that own and play with ME. the ME community has been left by our developers. if i worked at Keen this would make mad personally. i wouldnt like this at all but at Keen not a single employee has been able to do anything with the ME community. our favorite folks from @Deepflame to @CptTwinkie are gone but have more honor than any current staff because they still reach out to us and try to help with mods and other things. like Dan we have some of the smartest brightest folks when, if, when and if they actually are allowed to work with ME.

    side note, Keen is hiring and in their hiring they mention wanting to create a MMO. my assumption is SE will be made into an MMO, so after this ALL HANDS ON DECK for SE thing, it will continue as they try to make v2 into an MMO. this means to me that ME will never ever see any further development.

    what company doesnt even care that it's forum is abandoned? and keeps its support site active as fraud? close both if this game is dead, shut them down...

    Mr. Rosa, if you are reading this, do you care?

    "https://blog.marekrosa.org/
    At this time, Marek is developing both Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers, as well as daily research and development on recursive self-improvement based general AI architecture."

    sir your own blog is lying to the world that you are developing Medieval Engineers. you need to remove that line. You are doing nothing with ME. worse, you starved ME to death and now what... which ME owner is going to buy anything else from Keen? this is an honor question... is someone at Keen lying to Marek about ME being all good? is he being deceived because i have never met any CEO or self made businessman like Mr. Rosa that would like this idea of completely ignoring thousands and thousands of customers... saddest thing since my first PC game i bought in 1984 is what Keen has done to ME.

    sad.
     
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  4. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    411
    I try to remain optimistic. Keen is trying to hire more folks. My hope is that Marek has some big plans for SE that need more manpower and ME will be the focus after those plans are accomplished. The "living world" thing he wants to do for SE is probably one that more desperately needs to be done in ME. Maybe he wants to work out the details in SE, the game that has the larger customer base and most community bug testers, before moving over to ME in an attempt to reignite interest in it.

    When you compare SE to ME player base, SE mainly has more DLCs to sell, but a solid effort on ME after SE is done means it could see a spike in sales to catch up with SE.
    https://steamcharts.com/app/244850
    https://steamcharts.com/app/333950

    Everything ME needs can't be done by skeleton crew, so it probably makes more sense to wait until SE is done before dedicating the whole team to finishing it. Unless Keen suddenly fills all those job positions they've been posting forever...
     
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  5. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    imho this is not about the game dev, its about the relationship between Keen and the ME community.
     
  6. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Everyone that owns and/or loves ME probably remembers the day ME was announced. You need to go into the archives and read the forums, especially the ones before there was a separate one for ME.

    For those that don't want to or can't take the time, here's the gist of most of the comments:

    KEEN! WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!? WHY ARE YOU TAKING RESOURCES AWAY FROM SPACE ENGINEERS?!? YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY DEVELOP TWO GAMES AT ONCE!!! THIS IS OBVIOUSLY SOME SORT OF SCAM. WHAT'S YOUR PLAN? YOU GONNA PUSH ANOTHER GAME ON US EVERY SIX MONTHS THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BUY?!? ARE WE JUST YOUR PIGGY BANK YOU BREAK OPEN WHENEVER YOU GUYS WANT TO PARTY?!?

    Me, I thought they could do it. I was all for another engineering themed game. If they had pushed one out every six months I would have bought every one. Heck, my son wouldn't give Space Engineers five minutes but got all school-girl giggley about the prospect of Medieval Engineers. I still don't get it.

    But, we never got that other engineering themed game. Whatever it is that draws people to play ME, the engineering, no matter how lame or great it may be, is not it. In fact, now that SE has wood textures it would not surprise me to find more screenshots of Medieval villages made in SE than ME.

    I believe the idea at the time was that by developing another game they would more quickly find the limits of VRage. By developing a game that is the polar opposite of SE, one might discover things that otherwise would never have ever been noticed. The problem is that in space you solve all your problems with engineering, so it's easy to focus on the engineering. ME appears to have focused on everything but engineering.

    So, Keen put the ME staff to work on SE so that they could wrap SE up and move on to the next thing. That sure sounds like ME has been abandoned, but think about it. Shouldn't ME get the same sort of support SE enjoyed? Is an engineering themed game that takes place in the Middle Ages a bad idea? Is there no potential there? Of course there is! Perhaps Keen has realized that you can't do two games like SE at the same time and get two great games. So, maybe you do one game well and use what you learned from that on the other game and then maybe you end up with two great games. Maybe game #2 ends up better than game #1. Who knows?

    One thing is for sure. Space Engineers hits the market and all of a sudden everyone is developing a space game. As far as I know, Medieval Engineers has no rival. I suspect that if Keen put it's full potential into ME, similar games would spring up out of the woodwork trying to beat it. How many developers do you suppose have any idea how to pull off an engineering game that takes place in the Middle Ages? Only Keen comes close, and I think they know that.

    I think I'd wait a bit before I declare ME abandoned.




    BTW one shouldn't be surprised that Keen doesn't seem to pay attention to what "fans" are saying, especially in Steam forums. What do "fans" expect to happen when they publically vilify the developer and call them liars and thieves? They call this "supporting the game?"
     
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  7. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,774
    I can think of another Medieval building game Life Is Fuedal Forest Edition. I don't think it is even close to being as complex as ME can / could be.
     
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  8. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    wanting to preach that there is the development of ME then there is how Keen is not communicating to the ME community. my ire has shifted to the lack of communication, the abandonment of the player base. never seen that before...

    the aesthetic DLC pipeline into ME could be, should be alive and well. i will gladly pay $9.99 for the Scandinavian Architecture Pack... Moorish Architecture Pack, the DLC could be endless... just put a couple guys on the core dev and we will be done by end of year...
     
  9. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Medieval Engineers needs much, much more than some cosmetic DLC. It's not like Keen doesn't have the money and resources to feed DLC to a few willing buyers. The problem with Medieval Engineers is more fundamental. I own the game, but I don't play it. If Keen announced some giant DLC pack that, if it follows the current model, contains nothing actually useful but perhaps might help make my castles look more cool, I would not feel compelled to buy it. If they put horses and oxen in the game I would start playing immediately. I mean, I'm pretty sure in Medieval times people used horses and oxen. That's fairly fundamental. Wind and water power was a thing then, but not in the game.

    SE might be a building game at heart, but the stuff you build can do stuff. That's the cool part. I don't care even if Keen gives away cosmetic stuff. Engineering literally means building clever devices. That's what I want to do. If the game is just going to be building castles and villages, a bit of farming, the occasional barbarian... then don't call it Medieval Engineers.

    I suspect some people in management have also noticed that the focus of the game has sort of veered away from the engineering aspect. Obviously there are issues that are difficult to resolve that SE does not share. There may have been an attitude earlier on that if something can be done in SE, it should be easier in ME. Now they realize they can't just make a Medieval version of Space Engineers. It's going to take the same effort SE got.

    From a communications perspective, Keen is in a bad spot. Assuming that they are being truthful about continuing development on ME, there really isn't much more they could say. They are focusing their resources on SE. ME fans don't want to hear that, so Keen isn't saying it in any forums or other media because it will just trigger another shitstorm of people insisting that they're abandoning the game. Better to stay quiet and let the next update do the talking.
     
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  10. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

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    90
    @Stardriver907 I own ME and I own an I7 7700K with 8 cores, >4ghz, 16gb ddr4 ram and a GTX 1080 ASUS ROG edition but I even cant play ME with this setup because of this impossible game lags on multiplayer. Sorry but the singleplayer is not the full potential of the game, so I do not play the singleplayer.
    I am on the side of the players who blame keen for this step.
     
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  11. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    love this sentence. 2019 sentence of the year on ME forum award being issued...

    imho ME went to shit when they spent all that time and energy on a combat system in 0.6.4. wasted ME right there. nobody can build a siege cart (remember the hosted Keen video of a castle siege with DeepFlame and the cart on the bridge flipped out?) but Keen tried to take ME into a Mordhau/Gloria Victus like PvP system regardless. they lost their way, away from Engineers. then came 0.7.1 and it was like placing a bad roof on a bad foundation and the whole thing collapsed.

    clarification: Keen finishes the main core game. done. happy. then they release the DLC to which i think there is a good revenue stream. my want for DLC is based on the core game being done. core game is really the catchblocks, ropedrums, block placement, world chunking. add anything to this list - we might want to pin a perma list of the core things needed to be fixed.
     
  12. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    1,000
    @ibisgrunk

    Thanks for the kind words :)

    Tho SE got all my attention these days I still like ME a lot cause I can do pretty much all I want and like to create in this game even not completed.

    And yes, some members would like to participate in the making of ME but it is on hold atm, well till SE is more completed (less work needed) so they can work on Medieval Engineers again.

    I will add a notice about members that would like ME come to life for more work to my monthly report to Keen Team.
     
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  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    @Dan2D3D you and I kind of got into it a while back. I didn't understand your attitude.

    Then I found out you were also moderating the Steam forums.

    I get it now. Dude, I take back everything I said. Go ahead and do your thing. Just try to not let it get to you ;).
     
  14. Dynatica Trainee Engineer

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    2
    I am very pissed at this. It's like helping a barely wounded man, when there is another man gasping for air right next to you.
     
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  15. Arkos Trainee Engineer

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    7
    I get it, you people have your priorities with the Space stuff. I am good with waiting. I just want to know if ME will ever be picked up again or if it will be left to die.
     
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  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    It's more like sending the oldest kid to college so they can get a degree and with that knowledge (and income) they can help the rest of the family.

    It's possible that ME as we know it will die. The concept itself is very much alive. Making it work will take time.
     
  17. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    797
    When water (peaceman's mod) came to ME, they had the chance of the century to pick that idea up and create a hype over it, for little money. Did not happen. Missed chance.
    Rail mod gave a similar strong influx of fresh life, but I feel kinda insecure about it, as it clearly leaves the medieval period behind and becomes "baroque engineers" or even later.
    It's sad enough you need to do this, while they could simply open a browser and read this forum. These lines. OK, maybe they do already. There has to be a directive from boss to ignore it all.
     
  18. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    200
    This is the greatest risk Keen has against their success with Medieval Engineers: that another development company would pick up the concept and out-deliver them in features. Keen could lose their player base quite quickly. They have a head start but it's not going to last forever.

    I thought VRage was their own engine. Are there other stable Voxel-based engines?
     
  19. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,774
    @boromir There are several different Voxel based games / engines out there that are very stable. Planet Explorers, Planet Nomads, Boundless. All use stable engines.
     
  20. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    The fact that it hasn't happened yet is a clear indication that it probably won't happen. SE got copied almost immediately. "Copied" in artstyle and general appearance, but not even close when it comes to quality. A ME copy would almost certainly be a castle building game with the occasional barbarian to fight. The other developer would almost certainly leave the engineering part on the table, just as Keen's own staff did.

    The greatest risk Keen has against their success with Medieval Engineers: failing to produce an engineering themed game. No other developer has any idea what that means. Picking up and running with ME in its current state will result in a game just like ME in its current state, but with better graphics and performance. It won't be any more entertaining. When sales don't meet expectations they'll throw in dragons and then we're done.
     
  21. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    OT to thread here but @Stardriver907 -- i would like to mention if we did indeed live in the 13th century we would believe in dragons and magic to some degree, i think there could be some game inclusions as such... in theory one could become a witch hermit and live in a cottage in the middle of the woods making potions and the such? i miss talking ME with you all!

    https://historycollection.co/centuries-fear-superstitions-middle-ages/
     
  22. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    797
    Oh noooo, Ibisgrunk, this means the Disneyfication of Medieval Engineers... I was so glad it's still free of any fantasy stuff. *fainting and passing out*
     
  23. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    @Cetric i miss this conversation we had i think a year ago? i understand completely, but would say things like Spice Bread are kind of like a potion of speed? nothing overt and always possible as a mod and not the core game. regardless its moot becauses the core game needs to work even if they required a Disney+ subscription to play it! i wake you up with a Remove Enchantment spell on thee!
     
  24. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    What people believed at the time is irrelevant. What's important is what they were able to do during that period. Not the best time for science and medicine in Europe, but other parts of the world continued to explore possibilities and discovered far more interesting things than imaginary creatures and mystical powers. Engineering is all about both achieving and mimicking the impossible with science.

    When it comes to warfare, this was a time when the goal was to make your enemy think you had magical powers. Chinese military units flew kites that looked like dragons, causing enemy soldiers to flee. Scots played those bagpipes (woulda scared me).

    Give us the engineering tools, then we can make dragons and magic.
     
  25. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    Baroque Engineers would be the game of my dreams tbh
    --- Automerge ---
    This was not limited to China, though:
    [​IMG]
    (From Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis, around 1405)
    I once worked on a dragon with a very flexible neck and a snapping snout, but without a way to redirect ropes, I could not really make it work. Its head would just limp down sadly.
    But I can imagine that with the parts included in peaceman's Water Mod (and a few others), one could build a dragon that can actually fly. I've seen people build working airplanes with them, so dragons should not pose a problem. Add a machine gun to its head, and it can also spit fire. (Heh heh, Spitfire)
    Or better yet, we need a Greek fire/fire siphon mod. That would be super rad, and it would be more historically correct than machine guns. We may not be able to set fire to wood or thatch yet, but players can already burn!
     
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  26. Concave Apprentice Engineer

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    104
    A dragon model could have a couple of moving parts. Wings could wave fluidly applying "thrust" in a direction relative to a rotor that angles them but only in a restricted 90 degree span: flapping backwards and down are really the only two practical angles and could enable a "hovering" dragon that can put out serious short range damage onto clustered craft or buildings.
     
  27. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    797
    I think we should not treat Medieval people like plain idiots. When they were looking at pictures of dragons and other fantasy creatures, they knew those were just pictures and the result of an artist's imagination. They did not see them in real life.
    We today also watch a lot of fantasy or speculative art, in science-fiction movies and TV series etc, but nobody seriously will claim this what is shown is existent right now, from own experience.
    I hope in the future historians will not use the remains of these contemporary sources as proof we actually had today zombies, vampires, warp drives, interstellar flight, had won eternal life, fully developed androids etc etc... whatever is depicted in art/entertainment of our day. That would be analogue to the claim because medieval fantasy/illustrations/figurines on cathedrals show monsters people then accepted them as real.
    Or would you think anyone in 14th century would agree the following illustration shows reality?
    Enjoy:
    https://www.collectorsweekly.com/ar...her-surprises-of-sacred-medieval-manuscripts/
    http://memolition.com/2015/03/31/weird-illustrations-you-can-find-in-middle-ages-books/
     
  28. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    the old art imitating life or life imitating reality discussion... a lot of these dragons were synonymous with demons. the average medieval peasant truly believed in demons. folklore and mythology cannot be denied to those that were living and believing at that time. it is not factual assumption that peasants saw pictures for example of St George in their local church and just dismissed them as being some artist's fantasy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon and mythology in general come into mind. salamanders found in caves were thought to be baby dragons at that time. i like to limit it all to Europe because the game ME has no focus outside of the Eurpoean history imho despite adding deserts which do no exist in Europe.

    the notion that just artists portrayed dragons would be misleading, "Revelation 12:3, KJV: "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." ... I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads." [ref.]

    "Throughout the ages dragons were thought of like other exotic animals; sometimes harmful and dangerous and at other times protective and even useful. But as new found Christianity began to spread across the globe the image of dragons slowly began to change. The church used dragons as a representation of the ultimate form of evil; Satan, and by medieval times most people knew about dragons from the Bible. It’s likely that people who lived during these times believed that dragons were real as a monster described in the Book of Job closely resembled a dragon with fiery breath." [ref.]

    "That changed when Christianity spread across the world; dragons took on a decidedly sinister interpretation and came to represent Satan. In medieval times, most people who heard anything about dragons knew them from the Bible, and it's likely that most Christians at the time believed in the literal existence of dragons. After all, Leviathan — the massive monster described in detail in the Book of Job, chapter 41 — sounds like a dragon:
    "Its back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. Its snorting throws out flashes of light; its eyes are like the rays of dawn. Flames stream from its mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from its nostrils as from a boiling pot over burning reeds. Its breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from its mouth." [ref.]
    i would say good sir Cetric of which i support almost always that you have a modern confirmation bias when assuming that peasants would look at art and dismiss it as being not real. the reason the Stations of the Cross exists in Cathedrals and the power of the pulpit was the massive amount of illiteracy that existed in the time. folks could not read, so the Bible became orated to them. i also would say this statement is wrong: "I think we should not treat Medieval people like plain idiots" when indeed most of the commoners were in fact and using a modern definition idiots.

    my goal here is link significant proof that the people in Europe especially during the Middle Ages believed in dragons with the same faith that they believed in Religion in general. i love all ME players and consider us all superior minds than our other crafting survival gaming brothers. i encourage response and debate fully.

    oh ALSO IT HAS BEEN 9 MONTHS SINCE KEEN has done anything with ME. so let's talk dragons while we wait... or why Scandinavians believed in Gnomes and Trolls next?
     
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  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Thing is, dragons are also part of Asian lore. Educated people did not believe in them, but most common people did. In Asia, when an Emperor decided to go to war, common people were pressed into military service. Since armies were mostly common people, some generals used kites that looked like flying dragons to scare the enemy soldiers. It may not scare the enemy generals, but if it scared half the soldiers that's probably more than enough.

    It's not about what people actually believed. It's about the fact that Chinese generals engineered flying dragons and used them in battles. They also engineered kites that could lift a man and used them for aerial reconnaissance. All the engineering going on during the Middle Ages was not limited to Europe. That said, the game does not even let you do all the things that were done during the Middle Ages in Europe.

    For example, when I raise the drawbridge on my castle, all the ballistas on the wall get cocked, and that's just for starters. I'd like to do something like that in ME, but I can't. I don't want Keen to just "put a guy on it". I want the whole appropriate staff working on it. They're busy now, though.

    I find it difficult to believe Keen will just walk away from ME, given that it's even less likely there will be competition.
     
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  30. boromir Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    200
    I tend to believe there were dragons and dinosaurs at one time and now extinct (thank you @ibisgrunk for the references, I would also cite the ancient fictional story of Beowulf). I also think it was these real life dragons that the Chinese copied with their engineered kites.

    I want them working on it too, but unfortunately, I don't share your optimism that no other development company will, or more likely, is actively attempting their own ME. Medieval gaming is a very well tapped genre and has room to expand. But yes, dragons in an ME knockoff would be the death of Keen's fantastic ME.