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New Shield System Breaks PVP

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Sep 1, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    This new shield system breaks the balance of the game in PVP. It has no counter, no health bar, can't be damaged and can be turned on at any time. It is a completely broken system that makes PVP impossible on servers.

    I cannot believe that in 4+ years of developing this game Keen that you have not managed to find the time to increase the amount of available weapons to more then 2 or contribute in any other meaningful way to the PVP side of the game but you can find the time to add some dumb invulnerability system that completely stops dead proper PVP.

    The shield at a bare minimum needs a counter, either a way for an attacker to either ware it down or do some other action to have a chance of disabling it. Invulnerability is a cheap broken mechanic in any game, especially one that is a "survival" game. Sort this out fast before you lose your PVP player base.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    411
    You say "PvP", but I feel like you mean "offline base raiding".
    If Space Engineers loses it's "offline base raider" player base, then everyone is glad to see them go.
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
  3. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    354
    This is no Shield, and if you care to read Keens Explanation you would knew that. It is a safe zone. It consumes zone chips that no Player can create and have to be bought from NPC-Factions. So if you need to raze a player base, besieg them. if you can prevent new zone chips be delivered the safe zone will falter. That doesn't count for NPC-Base.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,077
    And so it begins...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. SultonMRP Trainee Engineer

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    77
    ya safe zone is a shield that basically costs around 100000 credits per hour.
     
  6. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    411
    What I am hearing here is "I can't trash someones base while they are offline FIX IT NAO!"
     
  7. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    No I mean PVP, something which you obviously don't partake in. If anything this shield thing fully encourages players to offline raid because if they are online they will just switch it on.

    This dumb shield system allows players to engage the shield at any time even if the enemy is close. For instance the other night my team went to attack an enemy base and they saw us warp in and enabled the shield. There is nothing from that point on that we could do to get at them which is completely retarded for gameplay. It's an instant win button with no counters that breaks gameplay. No matter how you look at it, its a poorly thought out idea that does not belong in the game.
    --- Automerge ---
    That is not a realistic or viable option. You cannot expect players to stand around for several days to wait out a shield. That is just ridiculous.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    Keen cater to the majority. They have to, it's good business. The default behavior of the game will be set up like how the majority plays. You are in a minority group. So, like any other minority groups in this game (I'm in one as well), mod it to your liking. That's what everybody else does.

    The majority wants to be able to keep their bases safe when they're not around, and their idea of PVP is with ships, not their bases. You may not like it, but that's how it is. Catering to your idea of PVP really would be a disaster and would alienate far more people than you guys. If every single hardcore PVP'er like yourself left the game, it would just be a little drop in the ocean - so that threat really doesn't work... you're not in the target audience.

    Just make it a rule on the server to not use the safe zone on the penalty of banning. Or, if possible and I'd be surprised if it isn't, mod the safe-zone chips out of the stores. Or make the safe-zone chips impossibly expensive. Or switch off Economy altogether. If you're playing on a server that's not yours, with the safe-zone enabled and no rule to not use it, then I'm sorry - they don't want to play the same way you do and there's nothing you can do about that except finding another server.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    354
    That's war. If you don't have the resources to obliterate your enemies, you won't. War is expensive. It's easy to destroy something. To weed it out, this tededious work, costs more money and time than an open battle. The Amis always failed at the later, and it hit them back most of the time.

    If you play SE long enought you have a hide-out with resources for a new start anyway, and the Zone-Block isn't something you get at the beginning of the game. Economy changes the rule, so adapt or be defeated.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. .Luca Trainee Engineer

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    41
    The safe zone requires tons of power with a constant supply of zone chips for it to run, it requires a grid to be static for the safe zone to be enabled, and it takes 10 seconds to activate it. It is in no way unbalanced.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    this thread has rust vibes.
    .
    do what rust players do if they can't brute force they way in. [which we can't at the moment he he.]

    Wait. Rust player made bases decay over time eventually weak points appear.

    if you're really hell bend on raiding someones base stalk it and see if its worth waiting around until the shield runs out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Dabombinable Trainee Engineer

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    35
    Raiding a base when some one is offline, leaving only automated defences really isn't PVP, since you can get the exact same experience in SP playing by yourself...so it's good that offline raid protection has gone from a mod to an official part of the game.

    Seriously, just go play on different servers (or SP) if you want to do raids without having to fight players (which isn't actually PVP).

    You clearly haven't played or seen much in the way of actual PVP action. People can and do wait days for an opportunity to raid a base. And if one doesn't show, they make one.

    I was actually thinking along the same lines. After seeing my brother playing it I got the exact same vibes.
    Some people though are extremely impatient (or have no clue when it comes to tactics and strategy) so threads like this exist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  13. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    PVP players aren't exactly a minority in this game. They are a sizeable chunk of the total playerbase and this is evident in the amount of PVP servers that exist. Many of these servers are very active and have 20+ players in them every night at peak times. While it is true that this forum mostly attracts the more PVE kind of player eager to show off his giant pointless ship, that isn't exactly reflective of the makeup of the playerbase as a whole.

    KEEN would stand to benefit significantly financially if for instance this game made it on to the E-Sport scene or even just became popular as a Twitch game. That isn't going to happen though when the developers basically ignore a large section of your playerbase for over 4 years and then to rub salt in the wound they go ahead and add a poorly thought out feature that no one really wanted in the first place. A feature that all but eliminates the ability to engage in PVP even on PVP focused servers. KEEN have shot themselves in the foot with this update. I and the rest of the players in my group (around 20+) recently started playing again after a few months break but after seeing how Keen have butchered the gameplay, very few of us are feeling eager to stick around. Playing this game now feels entirely pointless, you design your combat ship scout out the enemy base then prep for an attack. You all warp in, fly close and they instantly turn on their shield to which there is absolutely no counter play.

    Where is the fun or skill in that? It's now just eternal snowflake mode.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    @Bullet_Force Sorry, but you're wrong. PVPe'rs in general might have a sizeable chunk, but your kind of hard-core, no-rules PVP'er do not. Most people find their fun in ship-to-ship combat, where you can't use the safe-zone. I'm not gonna spend any time convincing you of this fact, because whether or not you believe this, Keen does - and they have the statistics of what people are doing. Actual statistics, not just individual persons' opinions and preferences :p

    To make safe zones unusable on your server, remove all references to the safe zone chip in FactionTypes_Economy.sbc. After some economy ticks (where stores update their content) no zone chips should be available for players to buy, rendering their safe zone blocks unusable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    907
    All I'm hearing is
    And to that- no one is interested. Thus: Safe Zones.
     
  16. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    I'm not so sure about that. I have no doubt that if you asked a bunch of PVP players a simple question: ls an indestructible shield a good idea? The answer would be overwhelming negative. Take the same question to any other game and you will also get the same result. It's a dumb unbalanced feature.

    Also I and my group also enjoy ship to ship combat that is the most challenging and skill based part of the game. We play to engage other players in combat. However when you spend hours scouting around for the enemy and finally find a large base, then spend hours preparing to attack it then you warp there and they turn on the shield which acts as an instant win button its just not fun nor fair - it's simply broken. It's a mechanic that has no counter play, no way to beat it.

    That kind of thing does not belong in a multiplayer game unless you are also going to allow players to enter cheat codes...
    --- Automerge ---
    I have played Rust, Atlas, Conan Exiles and ARK. All of which are PVP survival games. I have around 6000 hours of game time in ARK alone which is a full no rules no bs PVP survival game. That game has bases and that game also has shields but the big difference is the developers understood what proper PVP is all about and gave the shield hitpoints. So yes an enemy in that game turn on their base shield when you rock up but you can also with enough firepower remove it. That's how it should be in this game, that's the logical fair and balanced way most developers would approach it. Invulnerability is never a mechanic that should ever exist in a multiplayer game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  17. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    Invulnerability until either power or cash runs out.
    .
    I'd personally have a big problem with it if you could turn it off and on quickly and use it on mobile ships.
    I suppose it could be cheesed by some kind of turning ship from station to ship turning sheild gen on and off thankfully there is the 10 second delay right?
    .
    also haven't even had a chance to build one yet. i usually just power down my ships and hide them inside a big ol asteroid.
    .
    again i'd commend stalking them and seeing if they're gone for good then its only a matter of time before the sheild runs out.
    that or servers that have it disabled. or have wear and tear mod on like this good mod tbh. similar to rust without a tool cupboard unless nano bot repair or likewise is on
     
  18. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    @Bullet_Force Well, again, what you and I believe are irrelevant, only the facts matter ;) And asking just that plain question without any further context would absolutely get that response. Give the entire list of balancing mechanics that's in place for the safe zone, and how it's possible - even easy - to mod out if you don't want it, and that response would be quite different. Heck, if you don't care about the trading stations you can just not enable the economy system, and you won't have access to the safe zones since you can't buy the chips - so you don't even necessarily have to mod the game.

    SE is not a PVP survival game. It cannot be compared to either of the games you mention. You might want it to be, but it isn't, never was and it won't ever be. Heck, it isn't even a survival game. It's a building sandbox game with survival and PVP elements. That's it: a niche game. It won't change, no matter how much you and I might want it (I want the survival gameplay). If you don't like the game how it is, find another one to play because what you see is what you get and no manner of argument out of us is gonna change that fact. We both lost that fight, on each of our respective points of view, years ago. It's a fight we cannot win. Not for SE1 at least.

    I've told you how to solve this. Modding is how people change the playstyle of this game to their liking. It always was, it always will be. If it wasn't possible to change, I might be more inclined to accept your point of view. As it is - not so much. You're taking a fallen feather and turning it into 5 plucked hens.



    Sorry. I'm recovering from an ocular migraine attack and I'm probably a bit bitey, don't take it personally :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    It's been a while since I made a mod but would it be possible to mod it so that the shield can only activate in say 15min after everyone in that faction is offline and so that weapons inside the shield cannot fire out from it? Is that possible with the current system?
     
  20. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    @Bullet_Force I have no clue, sorry. That would require me taking a deeper look at how this system works and frankly my head is not in it :p
     
  21. Aequoris Trainee Engineer

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    20
    First off, I will establish my 2 premises.

    - I agree with doncdxx that offline raiding is mega broken. It sucks for people to log on, and find their base gone.
    - I agree with Bulletforce that pvp is currently broken. As it stands, even if you siege a base, once their shield runs low, they can just unmerge block it and jump. Without a new mechanic such as jump inhibitors, sieging is impossible. It has basically removed pvp from the game. It will get even worse as time goes on and players develop "Optimised guide to getting your first base shield in 5 minutes!" YouTube videos.

    But I believe I have a solution that might satisfy both camps.

    Shield generators can be altered, to trigger only when the last faction member logs out. To stop "Alt F4" abuse each time a base is attacked, the shield generator has a 5 to 10 minute warmup.
    This will give players the confidence that when they log on in the next day, their base will still be there. But at the same time, pvp is still quite possible while players are online.

    To utilise the current mechanics even further, we could make the zone chip resource, give the shield "1 additional day" of offline shield instead of its current time.

    This will ensure players still have a motivation to log in regularly to recharge the zone chips and play the game.

    Server admins should have the option to configure a "Max shield time"(perhaps default to 7 days, so weekend only players are still ok) so bases eventually can fall if players have stopped playing, and become lootable. That way, the server is not lagging with lots of massive bubble bases.

    What does everyone else think of this alteration?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    I think your suggestion raises some valid points. I'm not a fan either of offline raiding either as it always much more satisfying for the enemy have a front row seat to their own demise.

    While I'm not a fan of the shield system I would have far less of a problem with it if it was only able to function as an anti offline raiding tool as opposed to the all round anti PVP tool which it does now. I presume that was the original intent by the devs, but it's been rushed and poorly implemented resulting in this current fiasco. If the system worked properly so that it would only be functional when the faction is offline and with a 15min or so activation time then this would most likely please both camps both PVP players and the PVE.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    354
    I feel myself confirmed that PVP-Players are stupid. The image of a child beating something with a stick till it is broken comes to my mind if I read thos arguments.

    YOU DON'T LISTEN! to begin with. Or read answers fully. Or are not able to understand them.

    This is not a shield. It's not an off-line protection. It's not turned on immediately. It doesn't stay forever (except NPC's).
    It is a safe zone. And it fullfills it intended purpose.
    If you can't think of a way to defeat it, the game is to complex for you. Go read a book. My recommendation: Sunzi's Art of War. Or attend a military boarding shool.

    @Malware: Yea, I feel the same about the survival part.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    Perhaps you yourself should listen and read. As I have said and as others have said the whole blockade the shield idea you are pushing is not realistic or practical. No one is going to stand around the shield 24/7 for several days just to try and stop the enemy getting more chips. That is entirely unreasonable and not to mention bad for one's health. In any case it doesn't even work as Aequoris pointed out since they can simply jump in and out and there is no counter to warping in the game at present.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 3
  25. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    I don't see how a 10 second warm up invulnerability sheild is a good idea even if it does consume vast amounts of power and cash to run. The jump drive was already pretty much a get out of jail free card, enabling you to quickly escape any encounter assuming the jump drive itself is not destroyed in the initial attack. Does rely on having a weapon that can actually take out all the jump drives without atomizing the rest of the ship though. No point atomizing it - no loot.

    Consuming lots of power and cash make it far worse as a defence against offline raiding, as a sizeable setup is needed to actually keep the thing going. So little timmy's little battery powered moon base gets nuked from orbit on thier first night away because they can't run a sheild, but the big established faction with a bazzilion uranium runs under constant invulnerability.

    Seems a little backward to me. Offline protection should be something that is almost a given. If you've got any sort of semi-sustainable setup then I think you should be able to expect not to have it stomped while you're away doing some other important task such as sleeping, working or eating. This seems like a better idea:
    Does raise the possibility of stalking a base until the owner logs out and then raiding it before the sheild comes up but honestly that seems like a lot of effort, so fair play.
     
  26. Dabombinable Trainee Engineer

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    @Bullet_Force

    Have you even toyed with the idea of carpet bombing a base from high above it (out of actual sight)? Because that's one way to get around people putting their bases's shield up when you go to attack (not that you couldn't tunnel under a ground base...
    Even small grid bombs due large amounts of damage via sheer kinetic energy. Let alone if they are made active with warheads (always have them setup to delay activation long enough to clear your ship fully)

    Edit: Just to clarify, I didn't say that bombing was easy, it takes a lot of practice to actually get good results (and several sacrificial builds). But if you are targeting a ground base, things become easier, especially if you have a scout get accurate co-ords via mining under the base.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  27. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    Absolutely, I have bombarded many bases. It's one of the things I enjoy most in this game, alongside blowing up giant ships with a much smaller ship. That said sometimes it's nice to be able to capture ships and resources rather then just obliterating everything.

    Here are two videos taken from a multiplayer server. The first one was a simple grav propelled shotgun, the second one was a much more complex missile that I currently use.


     
  28. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,975
    I don't think that kind of language is going to help. Neither do i think it's warranted. Whatever you might think about and disagree with OP does not say anything about pvp'er *in general*.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    354
    It is my opinion, and it's still unchanged. I could also write a novel why it is that way, but I rather play SE in my sparce time.
     
  30. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    I have yet to run in to or play with a safe zone. I understand it takes power (unsure the amount), Zone Chips and the area being guarded being a station. But how long does this last for per chip and how much power does it take? I read over there are a number of setting to them. I figure this is setup by it's owner?

    If they wanted to fix the safe zone jump it's just be more effective to not let jump drive hold power or charge while in a safe zone. Meaning that anyone entering a safe zone would have to not only leave or shut down the safe zone to jump but wait for it to charge. Which seems far since it was meant for station protection anyways.
     
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