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Nobody expects the Chemist Inquisition.

Discussion in 'General' started by buggsy, Jun 15, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. buggsy Trainee Engineer

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    So how did the Iron get oxidized and turn red in space with no oxygen atmosphere or oxygen liquid (water) running all over it?
     
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  2. kristakis Junior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    ahh ye, sorry about that, coming out of cryo and then having to go right to work on the mining, well, i had to "let it out" as soon as i could.
     
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  4. Evaris Trainee Engineer

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    66
    While iron in asteroids is often found in an oxygen-free state, it's not too uncommon to find it as hematite, at least by what samples have been observed that I am aware of..

    Why all our iron is hematite is probably either A: because it's easily recognizeable and cuts down on used resources of different textures for iron deposites, or
    B: [​IMG]
     
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  5. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    +1 magic

    supporting evidence: massive ice deposits exposed to sunlight, and still there!
     
  6. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    ah that's nothing.
    you play with a character who rigs up a nuke reactor in a compact size of 1m^3, and is able to anytime stop/start it by just adding/removing uranium.
    witch he/she usually has handy in his/her pocket.
    all is needed a pressurised o2 rich(ish) environment, and its done without a helmet on.
    probably the guy is immune to radioactivity.
     
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  7. DarkGhost Junior Engineer

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    765
    Change your attitude immediatly, last warning before your second ban.
    User thread banned for now.
     
  8. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

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    Actually, the early solar system was rich enough with Al 26 (radioactive half-life of about 0.7M years) that planetesimals and protoplanets trapped enough thermal energy to melt ice in their interiors. This liquid water reacted to form both hydrated minerals and metal oxides. The radioactive material that likely fueled this action ran cold a long time ago.
     
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  9. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    1,286
    I had this question when I first played but they have to make it a different colour otherwise all ores would look the same.
     
  10. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    not necessarily. Where do you thing oxides on Earth came from? Besides, the asteroids could be formed from fragments of planetary bodies
     
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  11. a2457 Senior Engineer

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    that was brillint i must say, both of you.
    i'm impressed.
    and that is, rare.
     
  12. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    Eh?
     
  13. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    Actually, because vacuume is a perfect insulator, any expose ice deposit (excluding hydrated minerals, I'm talking about ice, frozen water) would be heated to quite high temperatures. And because the boiling point of water is dependant on pressure, any ice sublimes (phase changes directly from solid to gas) and the molecules are blown away on the solar wind. Thus: no surface ice on the sun side of asteroids.
     
  14. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

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    That is so full of wrong I'm not sure where to begin.

    Firstly, if you believe nothing can lose heat in space, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Secondly, the interior of a chunk of rock (or even ice) can easily provide enough pressure to keep liquid water stable for long periods. Check out the water works on Enceladus

    Thirdly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost_line_(astrophysics)
     
  15. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    why would you say I'm wrong then post a link proving me right? also, I'm not talking about the interior of asteroids, but about surface deposits in direct sunlight. which the linked article directly addresses. note the distances are measured in AU, thats the distance the earth is to the sun. tempurature is measured in kelvin. the best case scenario for water ice is 170k at 2.7 au. thats -105c to boil water, and the main belt starts at 2.2 au. Worse case puts the frost line at 3.2 au. As for surface tempuratures of objects in direct sunlight, main belt objects are estimated to have a daylight surface tempureature of -70c, which is above the vaccuum sublimation point of water. as to Enceladus, saturn is 9-10 AU which is well outside any frost lines estimated, and so can have ice. (as far as liquid water on said moon, check out tidal heating)
    Fact checking is fun, I highly reccomend it.

    Edit: 170k is quite a high tempurature as far as space is concerned. Objects gain heat through insolation, move it to the dark side through conduction, and then loose it through radiation. The surface temp is a result of the rates of these processes. This is why space craft require radiators, and why one of the primary functions of a space suit is cooling (rather rapidly transfering heat from the lit side to the radiators in a controlled way to maintain ideal tempuratures and avoid cooking the person inside)
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  16. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    As much as as I don't wish to oppose you, @Me 10 Jin has a point. Comets only start exhibiting a coma at certain distances (about 3-4 AU)
    Whilst the inner segment of the asteroid belt is within that range, the outer edge of the belt is further out and much colder. This is assuming that SE takes place in the asteroid belt and not among the Trojans, because that is also plausible, and the Trojans are well beyond the frost line .
     
  17. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    yeah, ill give you the outer fringes and the trojans. but lets not forget the atiras, atens, apollos and amors. Those would be a far more likely location for SE considering the date, and the fact that as a species (countries and companies aside for the moment) we are still ten years away from capturing a 7m asteroid, and at least 20 from a viable in-situ mining operation. That doesn't leave much time for getting to the trojans, even the main belt (considering in game characters are not the first wave)
     
  18. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

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    The presence of icy objects in the outer asteroid belt is an observable fact. Care to guess how it was observed? I'll tell you: a bunch of astronomers looked through telescopes and saw sunlight reflecting off of asteroids' icy surfaces. Guess what? That means ice is exposed to sunlight on some asteroids! These observations have been confirmed by spectral analysis which shows absorption patters consistent with common volatile compounds, mainly water.

    Sinbad, all your conjectures that you're trying to pass off as "facts" count for nothing against actual observation.

    Walk the walk, I highly recommend:p it.
     
  19. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    @Me 10 Jin: you said it, I said it: *outer* asteriods. outer belt will indeed have have ice, as will the trojans and the romans, and kupier objects. those easiest to reach in the next 60 years, inner belt and NEOs, will not.

    I think we got carried away here. My reply to your radiothemal heating comment was out of line. I thought it was a reply to my surface ice comment. Now that I read it again with a clearer head, I see that it had greater applicability to the oxidisation of metals on asteroids.

    I apologize if this put you on the defensive. After reading through the thread again, I can see that I have been driving this disagreement with agressive, challenging phrases and word choices.

    As to the conversation, we are saying the same thing, just from opposite viewpoints. My comments and replies were assuming the obvious (to me) setting of the game as being within 1.2 AU of the sun, exploiting those asteroid groups we could reach in the next 60 years.

    Its now clear to me you were operating under the opposite assumption that the game is set in the outer asteroid belt or beyond (3 AU+) for reasons that I'm sure make perfect sense.

    So neither of us thought it was neccesary to explain that if the game were set elsewhere, different rules would of course apply.

    Again, sorry for any ill feeling my antagonistc comments may have caused. I just don't know where my head was this afternoon.

    However, supposition is only supposition when not backed by fact, research, observation and math. When it is, its generally refered to as accepted fact. there is no supposition in my posts (aside from the setting of the game). if you are unfamiliar with any of the accepted facts that I have relayed, I am happy to provide the relevant links for you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  20. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    People, are we really debating this here?

    If I posted a thread like this it would be moved to Off-Topic, because It's where it belongs.

    Most minerals you see in raw ore doesn't have the traditional associated colors, let's take a look?

    Gold
    [​IMG]
    It does have small pockets of gold, but think about it in a big asteroid, how you would be able to visually identify the ore type?

    Iron
    [​IMG]
    Again, some ore have the classic orange oxidized appearance, how you can identify that on space?

    Nickel
    [​IMG]
    Same as above, but nickel have a metal reflection much more than Iron and Gold ores have. That can be misleading when mining in space...

    Platinum
    [​IMG]
    Yep, that's Platinum ore, doesn't look like the refined metal at all.

    What they look like ingame?
    [​IMG]


    As people mentioned above it's a question of gameplay. If we would go for a realistic approach:
    - Metals would need not only refineries to process the incoming ore, but forges to melt the ore, remove the impurities and casters to create Ingots.
    - The Ore detector would simply not work, since in nature, most ores can be found mixed with others, like cobalt and Iron, Iron and Nickel, some times Iron and Gold.
    - We would need a big refinery and enriching process for Uranium. The radiation of having Uranium Rods in the inventory would kill us.

    So yes, Chemist Inquisition is a fail the same as the PI.
     
  21. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    ooh, nickle has a rainbow bit.

    +1
     
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  22. Evaris Trainee Engineer

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    1. Refineries could include an autosmelter, just saying.
    2. This is true, though an ore detector could realistically estimate overall mineral compositions of a given area and give percentage of likelihood by utilizing a broad array of sensors and analyzing the data.
    3. Well, we wouldn't need a big refinery and enriching process for uranium if we stuck to the natural mix of u-235 and u-238, alongside a u-233/th-232 in an MSR or something.
    4. The radiation from u-235 rods in our inventory would kill us... slowly, over time, mostly through cancer, and that's assuming we keep it inside our suit, not outside our nicely radiation-protecting space suit. Cause otherwise solar wind would roast us rather quickly.
     
  23. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

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    Sinbad, I read your comments as asserting that liquid water was never possible in any main belt asteroids (in support of the OP). I see that I misunderstood your position. I guess I kinda saw red after reading "...because vacuume is a perfect insulator...". I apologize for my misunderstanding.

    I happen to agree that pristine surface ice twinkling in full sunlight is rather silly for all the reasons you mentioned. When Keen gets around to tweaking the ore distribution algorithm, I hope ice is left in the dark.
     
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  24. EvilDylan Apprentice Engineer

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    186
    The asteroids are just chunks of destroyed planets that happened to contain oxygen.
    Think about that next time you test warheads on one.
     
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  25. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Yep, actually they have or we would get only refined ore from them, not ingots. My point was about the excess of realism people are asking here.

    Agreed again, but see my above point about excess of realism breaking gameplay. If this was called Mining Tycoon, yes, that would be preferable, but this game is called Space Engineers, we need focus on the gameplay elements.

    Right, try to power a reactor that can generate 100MW with no cooling system, with no steam turbine attached... with that "poor" UO2. Again, break in realism for the sake of gameplay.
    Also, take a look in this article about fuel efficiency and cost: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Economic-Aspects/Economics-of-Nuclear-Power/

    Assuming the Uranium Rods here are U-235, we don't know that for sure, they should be highly enriched to reach such efficiency in energy production. It decays in Alpha, what well, is not good for your health if exposed to more than a few minutes.
     
  26. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    Alpha decay is only dangerous if you are stupid enough to eat it. Alpha emissions drop off after only a few centimetres of air. You can block them with a sheet of paper.
    The fuel rods are kept in your inventory which I will assume is your backpack. Your suit is designed to protect the user from harsh cosmic rays and solar radiation. A few measly Sieverts of radiation is not going to have much of an effect on your health.
     
  27. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    True for lesser/smaller sources of decay. Alpha decay also produce Beta and Gamma, if we are talking about a higly enriched Uranium, those emissions scales.

    The conversion rates in SE are 1000Kg > 1Kg(0,1%), when the current fuel production we have rates around 0,7%, without enrichment. That makes no sense right? Yes, we are in the future, we should be able to produce more efficient fuel, then again, break in realism for the sake of Gameplay.

    My point is: Stop with this nitpicking, if we start creating Inquisitions for every "not realistic" aspect of this game we would be doomed.

    Yeah, if those ores are frozen Oxygen, a warhead explosion should produce a big BOOM!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2015
  28. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    1,950
    Not necessarily. Not unless a reduction agent is present. Oxygen by itself is not explosive, it's only when another reactive agent is nearby (like hydrogen or an unstable carbon compound such as octane) does it actually explode.
     
  29. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    :eek:ops:

    It was a joke for Lord's Sake!
     
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  30. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    1,950
    apologies. I'm tired and the internet is winding me up tonight. I'm like one of those crazy Americans who shoots anything that moves.
     
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