Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Question to the staff / devs / marek about blocks and DLC

Discussion in 'General' started by zopzodeman, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    OK, OK...nothing more to see here, folks. Stop feeding the troll and move along.
  2. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    • Derailing / Offtopic
    @Spaceman Spiff but I have all this extra :munch: to share!!

    Don't share your popcorn. It appears to be against the rules!
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  3. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Hey, thanks! :munch:
  4. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

  5. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    There's no right kind of DLC. I'm not aware of any game that has DLC that is universally accepted by its community. Even if it's free. DLC means some people will have it and some won't. With Updates, everyone gets whatever it is, like it or not. With DLC, you decide if you want it, and your friends have to make up their own minds. With DLC, more often than not you will download it and your friends won't, for whatever reason.

    Downloadable Content has been around for decades. The results of DLC have never changed. It is always followed by a group of players decrying that it will "split the community", as if the community beforehand was unified and coherent. Well, that was never an accurate description of THIS community, so there's no point warning Keen about it or the rest of us. You're like way too late for that.

    If there was a better way, it would have been implemented long ago, and every other developer would have adopted that strategy because none of them want to be left behind. As it is, DLC is the only horse in the barn. You either ride it or walk. Plain and simple.

    Or quit the game, throw your computer out the window, and move to eastern Ohio and get a job on an Amish farm where you will never, ever have to deal with technology again.

    That'll show 'em.
  6. oleando Apprentice Engineer

    I just logged in to say that this DLC is a shameful display by keen.
    Specially by inserting the cockpit with different ports into it.
    Just that.
  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Yeah, that'll show 'em!!
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. odizzido Junior Engineer

    You can achieve exactly the same result by never giving keen money again. This is far less radical than the solution you gave. For example I didn't get frostpunk because of what the same company did to This War of Mine. I also haven't purchased AAA games in ages, and there is no way I am going to buy the new vampire game from that company responsible for stellaris because of stellaris. Not until years after they're stopped working on it AND they sell it for a reasonable price. That's how I personally "show 'em".
  9. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Um, ok.

    My point was that they don't give a rat's butt what you do. The majority of the people that own the game are not going to quit because of a suggestion from the forums. These is not and won't be a DLC boycott. If Keen's actions become negative everyone will know and won't need any prompting to quit or not buy from here. It'll just happen.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I make up my own mind.
  10. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    From :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
    In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

    Who had his Post moderated because he used offensive language? who is posting off-topic and extraneous things here?
    So WHO actually IS the troll ?

    Back to the topic:
    I had a chat with a few content-creators for YT and twitch , most agree that it was a bad decision making the DLC blocks usable only to buyers... some also agreed that it would have been the better way to release mission/scenarios or skins...
    Still waiting to see what w4stedspace has to say , no doubt theres gonna be a video from him.
  11. chrisb Senior Engineer

  12. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    chrisb . i think you got your quotes mixed up really badly ;)
    Im changing between SP and MP , so i know both sides you could say.
    although i dont get it that you are not liking missions/campaigns as a part of a more lively world / user experience in SP?
    Have you tried the supplied Mini-Campaign "The first Jump" ?

    EDIT: Having thought about the whole thing longer , i now think i know why the DLC is a success from a business standpoint: Customers having asked for more content for years were being starved of said content for really long and are now basically buying any bone that KSH throws at them...

    The "game" is still a hollow shell .
    Why you ask?
    -No real NPCs , only "robotic" ships and stations and hostile Fauna (exactly 2 types : Wolfs and spiders)
    -Only interaction with those robotic things floating around is to shoot them and grab their parts (also true for the wolfs and spiders)
    -How many different Cargo ships are there? 6 ? (if you count the Pilgrims Curiosity 7?) , them being also only targets and shooting back...not really flying anywhere
    -basically only 2 factions exist: Yours (player) and the SPRT (Space Pirates), while the CARGO SHIPS CALL THE SPACE PIRATES FOR BACKUP -> my head hurts by only thinking of it...
    -The "game" is advertised with "Space Sandbox, defined by Creativity and EXPLORATION" - yet all you can find is 6 different planets (which are pretty empty and devoid of any life except the wolfs and spiders) or the ever-repeating clumps of rock in space , sprinkled with pretty rare "encounters" (which are also only able to shoot you and be shot at and maybe turn on their thruster to simulate a "fleeing")
    -Customers asked for more tools and weapons , they got reskins of the existing ones with slightly different stats , in case of the rifle only difference in rate of fire and bullet dispersion instead of DIFFERENT weapons like a Shotgun , Sniper Rifle , Rocket Launcher,Laser whatever .... you cant imagine the implementation being done anymore lazier then this )

    ..and on top of that they have the audacity now to release "DECORATIVE" blocks as DLC (imagine minecraft releasing a new biome-type with new blocks as DLC.....yeah pretty much the whole internet would fall in a civil war...)
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    If sharing my popcorn is a troll move so be it. I am sorry sharing offends people....
    --- Automerge ---
    I am pretty sure bragging is considered a troll move too so watch your step folks.

    (Public service announcement, not intentional derail there moderators) :)
  14. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    I stand corrected. I meant to say "insect".
  15. chrisb Senior Engineer

    No, not bothered with their campaigns.
    Its a sandbox.. I'm making my own gaming world. That is what a sandbox is all about. ;)
  16. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    Perfectly legit :)
    But dont you think the addition of more NPCs , tools etc. would be a better thing to have then some tables and beds?
  17. chrisb Senior Engineer

    I do agree yes. I said in the post above that some company (npc's) in the game would be nice, for single players obviously.

    There is a nice mod that has crew seated at screens, plus also standing, gives the impression your not alone, which is a very good feeling, when flying through the darkness.
    I would like to see something similar to that in the game.

    But I also love to have the furniture, a bed, kitchen etc is nice, helps finish a ship without mods. All the blocks in the dlc were very welcome for me, I know some players don't like paying for something they feel should be included. Unfortunately it wasn't included and doubtful it would have been. So a small cost for having them, is no problem for me.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    The First Jump scenario has its good points, but it also shows Space Engineers limitations, as do the wolves and spiders. At best, I think we can hope Keen will add NPCs that are basically mannequins, that you can put in poses, maybe even script them walking around a bit. But, I don't think this is ever going to be an open world CRPG, and a lot of that would just be beyond Keen's apparent skill set.

    I thought the new survival tutorial is a better example of what an SE scenario should be. (I have some criticisms of it as well; mostly just that the tutorial should have made it clear that attacking the pirate base would be a significant challenge requiring knowledge of features of the game the tutorial hadn't covered.)
  19. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    I dont think they can not do at least some basic interactable npcs (even if the npc will be limited) beyond just aggressive types. If other Devs can , Keen also can .... it may require hiring a specialist, as the game is ,according to Mareks blog ,still selling well this shouldnt be a big obstacle.
    Whether or not they WANT is another question.
    Since there has never been a clear path or roadmap what is planned , what may come, this will all remain speculation though.
    But i certainly wouldnt call it beyond their skillset.

    Edit : i believe nobody is asking for SE to become a CRPG , its just that this Gameworld is quite boring and lifeless...
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Actually, I didn't. You think the game is a hollow shell. Some other people think so. I don't. Yeah, there's some stuff Keen can do. Well, they're doing stuff. The things you are asking for are on the list on the support page. Vote appropriately and they will consider, if others agree. Otherwise, nothing that happens in this thread is likely to change anything. Maybe you can make some noise on discord.

    What makes you believe they are not working on NPC's?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    I never said i believe that they are not working NPC (although , if you read Mareks latest blog he describes NPCs as a "example of high risk feature" :
    from : https://blog.marekrosa.org/

    "Example of future high-risk but high-reward features:
    • Water for our game engine VRAGE
    • Rewrite our game engine VRAGE with parallelism in mind, being more asynchronous in its nature (parallelism by design), more data-oriented.
    • General AI for our games (NPCs, living worlds)"
    "High risk" in my understanding means it may or may not be done....
    Also quite telling that he sees "Living worlds" as a possible addition , which to me looks like he knows that thats not featured in SE.
    Yes i think in its current form SE is just a hollow shell .
    Other term that could be used is basic framework...its practically Autocad3d or Blender for "game-like" spaceships and stations...
    Also the moving out of Beta was (please see the definition of Beta-Level Software here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle) wrong , because they now add the real features for it to be a GAME other then a 3D-Editor..
    NPCs are a basic feature of a Game and should have been added BEFORE going out of beta...

    EDIT: What makes you (or KEEN) think the support site and its voting system is in ANY way representative of the customer base? currently there are just of a handful of REGISTERED user in the forum and 10 to 100 times more GUESTS (bots are counted seperately) dont think thats much more different on the support page ... all that while the "game" sold more then 3 million copies (according also to Mareks blog)..
    IF Keen REALLY wanted to know what the playerbase wanted , there would be surveys within the "game".
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  22. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    This is Keen's first notable venture into DLC. They're going to get it wrong at first. They just are. They'll probably learn a few things and the next one will be better.

    I think the greatest fear is that they will go all EA or Bethesda on us and turn even the crosshairs into DLC. DLC is terrible when its used to squeeze the last dollar out of a game. I'm giving Keen the benefit of the doubt that this won't be the scenario. If they take that road, it'll kill off this gaming community. On a multiplayer server, other players should be able to use the DLC blocks, just not place them IMHO. Players who do not have the DLC will be more apt to purchase something they regularly can interact with than something that BANS them from using it at all. I would start to resent the DLC if every time I encountered it I was locked out of using it.

    I think Marek can be stubborn (my opinion) and not easily swayed to change his mind. But he's not immovable.
  23. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

    After much needed time away from SE (creative block) I was excited to see the new updates and the DLC. I don't plan on getting the DLC just yet but one thing bothers me. The G list. Those DLC blocks.. are there. They are staring at me, enticing me to click them like some kind of advertisement on SpaceBook. Every time I open the menu I'm greeted by what feels like eyes. Looking at me. "Buy.... us...."

    I guess this was Keens intention. But I find it FLIPPIN annoying. Anyone else? Keen? (echo)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Dan2D3D Moderator

    This is for all posting here :

    If you want to do things right = Add your vote to the main community Vote thread on the Support Portal :

    Search results about DLC = DLC Vote threads
  25. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    "When the Technological Singularity happens, we'll definitely release an update for Space Engineers."
  26. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    But... what if you just want to rant?
  27. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Or whine? Or pule?

    Or say, "Why, oh why, don't they do it the way I want?"
  28. Dan2D3D Moderator

    Ah! Ok then!

    So for all > if you just want to rant = it's ok over here and create a new "Feedback" on the Portal if you want to add your suggestion to the community Votes. :tu:



    Message for the members that reported me :

    I received all your reports on me and I can tell you that I had no bad intentions, just wanted to tell all where they can add good Feedbacks.
    --- Automerge ---
    Ah! Also
    @Spaceman Spiff

    Would be kind not to use name callings cause "Insect" was reported.
    --- Automerge ---
    REMINDER to all :

    Forum rule #8

    Respect each others opinion. Don’t try and force your own opinion onto someone or deride what other members believe about the game.
  29. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    @Dan2D3D I am still stumped on my sharing of popcorn was reported and warned... I do not see how that was derailing, when later down in the post there were other true derailments. Anywho I now will no longer share my popcorn. :) Lesson learned.
  30. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    For me, it's not that the DLC is expensive, or lacking content, or divides the community, or is somehow 'immoral for a business to do', or any of the other opinions being expressed here. It is simply that KSH pulled SE 'Out of Early Access' before the game was in an acceptable level of completion, so that they could sell the DLC.

    The game is still full of glaring gameplay bugs, memory leaks, crashes, and server lag. Pulling Dev resources away to code DLC content prolongs the already >5 year wait purchasers of the base product have had to wait. KSH never said they wouldn't be able to complete the game without additional purchase so, to me, this is just obvious mismanagement. Had the glaring game breaking bugs been fixed I might have been fine with an occasional crash but to date wheels still pop off, cargo blocks still randomly explode, the Remote Control autopilot dies eventually, and on and on...

    "but they're still working on it"? Nah, they're working on DLC and one guy is half-heartedly phoning in coding fixes during his lunch break because he still cares for some reason.

    That is how this looks now. True or not, perception is reality.

    Tinfoil hat time: KSH now has every reason to prolong mod-breaking bug fixing for as long as possible because this DLC makes Modders competitors that Keen cannot at this point flat out ban because that WOULD kill the game immediately. Let that roll around in your mouth for a little bit to see how it tastes. It's a nuanced flavour so really spend some time before swallowing or spitting it out.

    Bottom line: as has already been mentioned there's nothing you can do about it other than choose another company to spend your money on in the future, aside from posting community awareness messages/reviews on social media I guess.

    Personally I thank Keen for this fairly cheap $35 cad life lesson.

    Edit: obligatory emoticon added

    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019