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Realism: Nickel and Silicon(and Magnesium) be more abundant

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by goduranus, Dec 28, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. goduranus Junior Engineer

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    I like the realistic abundance of iron, where there's so much of that stuff that stuff you just throw most of it away. I think it could also be the case for silicon and slightly less so for nickel as well, those are pretty abundant in real asteroids.

    There would be very little gameplay difference for this change, only added realism.

    Edit: Just noticed Magnesium abundance is up there with Iron and Silicon. Imagine those big asteroids with solid magnesium ore inside! Oh Please! This would be a game changer. Moar ammo!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2014
  2. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    The downside is that if you want it to be realistic for those two, it would be realistic for all of them. Uranium, platinum, gold, etc... Gonna be a bad day.
     
  3. goduranus Junior Engineer

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    uranium, gold, platinum, etc aren't that rare in space. They're disproportionately rare on earth due to having sunk to earth's core, but in space they are mixed up with the other stuff, I think the current abundance feels right.
     
  4. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    The heavier the element, the more rare it is as a general trend. So trust me, they are much more rare, even in space.

    Diagram for effect. Look at how low uranium, platinum and gold are:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2014
  5. goduranus Junior Engineer

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    Ok, you're right, silicon and nickel could still be more abundant though
     
  6. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    This is entirely untrue
     
  7. TehRoach Apprentice Engineer

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    Yer I cant see any reason why silicon shouldn't be at least as abundant as Iron
     
  8. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    The reason is due to the fact that iron is used it much larger quantities in SE. I dont think there is any other reason than that. Simply that you need hundreds of tons with iron, but not so with silicon.
     
  9. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    Resources in this game should not be balanced based on realism but rather on how much of the resource in needed.

    Gameplay over Realism at all times, and if this game starts sacrificing gameplay for realism I'm out of here and going over to Starmade or something.
     
  10. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    It already does so you should leave
     
  11. Xylord Trainee Engineer

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    Well, except it does not. It tries to stay realistic as much as possible, but realism is occasionally sacrificed to make for better gameplay. I can't think of a case of gameplay being sacrificed for more realism.
     
  12. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    Tell me where it sacrifices gameplay for realism (and not gameplay enhancing realism)?
     
  13. goduranus Junior Engineer

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    silicon is needed for gameplay for lots of solar panels and big windows. You'll feel it on 1x.
     
  14. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    i agree, silicon is difficult to find and i'm getting a ton of uranium. should be the other way around!
     
  15. nobodx Senior Engineer

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    I haven't found a single silicone (silicate?) deposit in 2 days while playing in a survival mp-game
     
  16. goduranus Junior Engineer

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    Just noticed Magnesium abundance is up there with Iron and Silicon. Oh Please! I need moar ammo!
     
  17. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    You always had tons of uranium. Usuaslly in most of my survival worlds I'd mine uranium once or twice and have a lifetime supply. And that is fine in my book.

    Maybe silicon could get an increase, but I'm still against the "realism" aspect of it, if silicon needs to be more abundant, it needs to be for gameplay reasons.
     
  18. Levits Senior Engineer

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    Sioxernic, is your opinion on this topic based on a PvP server or in a solo survival gameplay aspect?

    I ask because the overall gameplay would be greatly enhanced in one field while only mildly detrimental (if any) in the other if the resources were properly proportioned based upon realism.

    In an online game, it becomes difficult to find resources to construct or even begin anything if the resources are not balanced right. Even worse is that with this imbalance, a group of people could monopolize a magnesium rich asteroid and thus rule the entire server simply because they have found this one, single asteroid with magnesium.

    The same can be said of all other resources. Someone finding any one particularly rare resource thus gains an over abundance of power that greatly reduces the gameplay of others willing or wishing to play online.

    What is needed is a properly proportioned system where anyone finding an asteroid may be able to get started. (Realism does help with this greatly as it can be a basis for the quantity and dispersal of the resources.)

    Iron is a vital necessity for building your ships, but it doesn't matter if all you find is iron. You NEED all of the other resources in order to build a ship and progress and the only way to actually make sure that someone else doesn't have all of the other resources is to mix up the composition and quantity of the resources.

    Though I haven't played survival in a while, my latest online server experience landed me on a single asteroid. The only thing that asteroid had in it was Iron. Just Iron. You'd expect a tad bit more variety there. It would not hurt gameplay if the resources were properly distributed or made to mimic real life statistics.

    In my opinion, Even though the graphs say that Uranium is rare, it does not mean that you wouldn't be able to find it. It would mean that on each asteroid or at least most, there would be a very small pocket of Uranium somewhere on it. If you would be willing to express your concerns on the matter a little better... I'm just curious why you're against the realism aspect. I just don't see how realism on this particular subject can hurt gameplay.

    I mean, if you're worried that uranium will become too scarce, I don't really think that would be much of an issue considering that you don't really need a whole lot of it at any given time.
     
  19. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    Levits: You cannot monopolize the "one, single asteroid" in an infinite world. There will be more than one of each type within a 20km radius, let alone 50km, 100km, etc. Iron is very common. Everything else (other than stone) seems to be basically the same spawn rate. Of all the mapping I have done, I would say that platinum and uranium are maybe slightly over represented. Other than that, they seem to all occur at about the same frequency. It is also worth noting that you cannot possibly "only find iron" since all asteroids other than the large donuts have something other than iron and stone. (and the large donuts almost always have a small satellite asteroid within 50 meters, or even attached, which has a resource)
     
  20. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    Levits I'm with Latsabb on this one.


    The point of having rare and abundant resources even on a PvP world is it gives a dynamic and can foster trade.
    If everything is easy to get you will see little to no trade at all.
     
  21. Levits Senior Engineer

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    Well, I guess I'll give in for now. I haven't played online PvP for long enough to argue. But I have to ask, just how much trade is actually going on in the PvP servers. I can't imagine that a faction or group would simply trade with their competitors. Let alone if a faction finds the mother load of magnesium and thus has the majority of military resources. If I'm not mistaken, there are a few arguments regarding trade at the moment amongst others... do people actually trade in PvP o,O ? I can see many people being unable to compete or even start out for that matter without having access to the other resources to some degree.

    Also, I had no idea that Asteroids were so abundant in the Infinite worlds... It took me forever to find any random floating rock when I tried a server game online.

    And lastly, I did actually fact find an asteroid that was comprised of nothing more than iron. though it appeared as though someone mined a hole in it, there was no other element or resource other than Iron popping up on the detector. It really was just a giant chunk of metal in space... which is probably the reason no one bothered to claim it or harvest more from it. I suppose it is possible that there was another element on it before, but a 3 meter space is not really a very large amount of room for a resource to be contained; especially if it is just a simple hole.
     
  22. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    Small pockets wont show up on an ore detector. Just 5 minutes ago I stumbled upon a fairly sizable asteroid with (as far as I could tell, since I didnt mine all the way through it to find more pockets) two small pockets of uranium. I mined out both pockets, neither of which came up on the detector, and got about 23,000 uranium. A lot of times there will be a pocket about 30m in from the surface, in a spot or two, meaning you need to be near the surface with a small ship, or by hand, to pick it up, and you need to fly around to find it. There is always something there, as I had specified.

    As far as trading on PvP servers? Not that I have really seen. But who knows, there might be. I wouldnt trust anyone to meet for a trade anyway. But, like I said, the resources are all over the place, so you cant just claim one, and say you cornered the market.
     
  23. Levits Senior Engineer

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    ...Ok, so me and Saerki just finished up a game on Infinite World Normal. I found two major issues regarding the resource balancing. First off, The asteroids DO NOT contain more than 2 types of ore. 1 of them is always Iron; the other is whatever, single, random material that the system picks.

    I searched approximately 6 asteroids within a 12,000m radius of our starting asteroid. I found no silicon or Uranium what so ever. What resources I did find were based entirely within single asteroids. Such as one asteroid contained or was dedicated to a single resource while another was dedicated to another.

    There was no mixing or balance in their composition. They were iron and only one other resource. This was true for every single one of them.

    After giving up because he ran out of power and my ship was on its last leg with the only Uranium we possessed having run out, he restarted the map in creative.

    Yes we tried to find silicon for solar panels and batteries, but that was non existent (he had yet to find any even afterwards). After spending another 30 minutes or so without me, he eventually found uranium about 13,000m away from our basecamp and even then he had to look through an additional 5 asteroids. The uranium deposit was massive and contained within a single asteroid just like all of the others.

    This is no way for a survival game to play out let alone for anyone to want to give it a try. Not a drop of magnesium, but far more cobalt, platinum, silver, gold, and just about every other resource you could ever want or imagine all in very condensed groups assuming you find the right asteroid that houses that single resource.

    You simply run up to an asteroid, scan it to find out what single ore it possesses and then move on. Something's broke here. What happened to how the asteroids worked in the Solo survival game? I never had this much trouble finding at least some of what I needed to survive.
     
  24. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    Levits: Multi ore asteroids exist. (meaning two or more, and not just iron) They are, however, not common at all. But they do exist. The next time I stumble on one, I will take a video as proof. You also say that you search 6 asteroids, and didnt find silicon or uranium. Well... Come on now, it was only 6. Searching only 6, you can, at best, only hope to find 6 different ores, and excluding iron, there are 8 different ores.

    I also dont see how you could have possibly run out of uranium after only checking 6 asteroids... Other things to note: You were playing on normal, not high density. If you want things closer in, you need to obviously up the density. You are unclear on what scenario you were playing. Obviously not easy 1, easy 2 or crashed red ship, so I am assuming lone survivor or asteroids. Asteroids gives you more than enough materials to start with to make solar panels, and even a mining ship (or 5) while still leaving you with a functional school bus. Lone survivor is hard mode. Hard mode doesnt always work out on the first try, hence hard mode.

    Also, magnesium is pretty much only used in ammo, and should, as such, not be something you would even want to find often. (being that it has limited utility, and you would be better served with something else) Plus, I find way too much magnesium as it is. It is just as common as anything else. (other than uranium and platinum, and maybe even cobalt)

    Edit: Even on lone survival, the only thing keeping you from a fully functional mining ship right off the bat is platinum. With the grav gen on, you have 42 minutes to secure uranium. With it off/grinded down, you have 3 DAYS of uranium. (assuming a 10km beacon) If you bump that beacon up to 50km, you still have a full days worth of uranium. Minus suit charges, of course. You have a ton of time to secure uranium. And if you find/start with/whatever platinum, you are set. You dont need very much platinum to make 6 thruster components and a detector component. (and the detector component is not even needed...)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2014
  25. Levits Senior Engineer

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    ok...now I'm just outright confused here. What game mode are you playing on? is it a PvP server? or is it a personal solo map?

    And I can assure you that what I explained was very much true. Our settings were this: Normal Infinite World. The ships we started with were the same 1st default "normal" starter ship that is part of the list of spawn ships to choose from.

    The first thing I did was construct an antenna in order for us locate one another. That took some time but was manageable. the remainder of that time (after I built a mining ship and Saerki finished dismantling my starter ship for parts) I began looking for Uranium.

    There was non. After 6 asteroids spaced far and wide, I still found not a single drop of Uranium, Magnesium, or Silicon. Nothing at all. Upon each I found a single type of ore but non of it mixed; non of it possessing more than Iron and some other random ore in massive abundance.

    While I was off venturing in search of it, Saerki was busy trying to build a construction vehicle. About 12,000m away (and about an hour or so later) Saerki tells me that his starter ship has run out of Uranium and thus shuts down. After an hour of looking I had found nothing. I searched through hollow asteroids, and even along solid ones, Tons of donut shaped asteroids all over the place and they all had one thing in common; They ALL only possessed one type of resource. (Iron does not count, it is in all of them.)

    I could have lived with the fact that there is no uranium, but Silicon was also nowhere to be seen. So not even solar panels were a viable option.

    Even after 3 hours of playing (even more since Saerki restarted the world in creative Just to prove that Uranium actually exists), he spent another hour or so looking through 5 other asteroids just to finally find one of them to contain nothing but the stuff.

    And as for Magnesium and silicon, that was on the list of no shows after 11 asteroids.

    I think that we're on different game settings here or something because what I found matches nothing to what you're depicting. From what I see there is a terrible imbalance that really shuts down anyone's ability to get off the ground unless they find that one asteroid. And then, if they find it, they never have to worry ever again since its all right there.

    How rare are those multi-ore asteroids anyways? 11 to 1 are not very good odds. I don't want realism for realism's sake, but this is just ridiculous to think that ore in space prefers a segregated community and only hangs out with their own kind. Most of those 11 asteroids possessed the same material as well. Two of them had silver, one platinum, they one we stayed at had gold. Every last one of these had enough to build a mother ship 10X over but not a drop of any other resource.

    Though this topic and suggestion is in favor of Nickel, Silicon, and Magnesium specifically, I fail to see the idea behind having asteroids being dedicated to a specific ore. It is neither logical nor user friendly. Yes, I want realism if it means it wont break the gameplay, but I do not see how gameplay benefits from having such an imbalance in resource distribution.

    As it stands, I'm being forced to convert over to aggressive piracy in order to get what I need just to start out. Not that I mind having to do so (I just need to change tactics), but I was hoping to start off a little more peaceful rather than show up and ruin someone else's work.
     
  26. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    Levits: I have played both online, and SP. Normal density is not doing you any favors, but is still quite manageable. An antenna is a giagantic waste of resources, especially since it is a large one. Resources you could have used to actually get started. And you searched far and wide, but only 6 asteroids. That is not that many. Like I said, with only one ore per asteroid, it would be literally impossible to even find all the ores with just 6 asteroids. And you guys are burning uranium and stuff building construction ships? For what possible purpose? You dont have the materials to make anything... Secure uranium first, construction ships second. Basic logic. And then you go on to say that you spent 3 hours playing, and searched just 6 asteroids. And then restarted, and played another game and only looked at 5. That you cant see the problem here is pretty shocking.

    And as mentioned, magnesium is straight up, 100% not needed at all unless you must have ammo for some sort of reason. No big loss. I die inside every time I show up to an asteroid and see magnesium. How rare are the multi ore asteroids? Impossible for me to say since I dont have a large enough sample size. But if it WAS 1 out of every 11, that would be pretty high, at around 9%...

    Your issue seems to be an inability to prioritize correctly.
     
  27. LittleTerror Apprentice Engineer

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    People are still having a hard time gathering the resource's? Really?

    After about 1 - 2 hour I have more than I know what to do with, the only thing I want to see changed or fixed, is the shapes of the asteroids and also fixing/tweaking the ore detector.
     
  28. Levits Senior Engineer

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    The antenna was a necessity in order to locate one another. It was a waste of resources and time but it was required. As for 6 asteroids, considering the size of them, it would stand to reason that there would be more than just 2 elements within any given one of them.

    I am not saying that they did not possess resources, What I'm saying is that they possessed far too much of a single given resource. I went back to look around. And again my search brings me back to the same conclusion that every single rock out there is specifically dedicated to a single resource. There is no exploration or excitement to look for resources with the way the game works in this way.

    If you need a resource, you simply find the one rock that has it. When you do (and this is true for every single asteroid I've found) You no longer need to search for that resource ever again. Even LittleTerror can agree with me that once you've found the single asteroid that has the resource you need, you never again need to search for another one.

    There is no variety. No dispersal. It's like a one stop shop on any asteroid with whatever specific resource you want.

    The Uranium asteroid I found had more than enough in it to last a year in the game. But it was impossible to find even a single trace amount of the stuff anywhere else but that one asteroid. Still didn't find a multi-ore asteroid yet. ...and just to clarify my definition of multi-ore, I mean how the default asteroid in the 20km world is where you can find several small amounts of most if not all of the various ore on it.

    I've seen a few "Fused" asteroids that were nothing more than two separate ones with dedicated ore deposits stuck together. What I don't see are the default single player asteroids like what I previously experienced.

    And just to clarify it wasn't another game. I gave up on the search. Saerki continued to look in that same world. I looked at 6 at roughly 12k meters from our starter ship, Saerki Looked at an additional 5 roughly 13k meters from it. a grand total of 25,000meters and only one spot had it. 11 asteroids and no other ore deposits on any of them except for the dedicated amount of iron, platinum, gold, cobalt, ect ect. There were no other elements out there until he stumbled upon an asteroid with Uranium. And then, That was it. ALL of it. There was so much there that we'd never have to go looking for it again.

    I actually use to be happy and excited about what an asteroid might have in it. Now I just look at it and go "It only has gold in it" or something to that nature. My curiosity and explorative nature regarding asteroids have thoroughly been crushed with the way the resources are currently setup. I don't even have to strive for anything more than to initially find the one asteroid that has what I want.
     
  29. Latsabb Senior Engineer

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    An antenna is 100% not required to find one another. If an antenna works, then a beacon would work, and a small beacon will go 50km, and it doesnt drain nearly as much power as a 50km antenna, which eats power. One could also reason that when low on resources, you might want to sort out some uranium before linking up. But yes, in general (but not always, because some asteroids have very little ore) you are set for quite some time with a single asteroid find. And yet that doesnt seem to be enough for some people, since you effectively only need to locate one of each.

    And a multi ore asteroid like you had also basically set you for a long time. It left no reason to go anywhere else. Most people never played a single world long enough to ever need to find another asteroid other than the one the started on. That "feature" was removed, and you seem like you dont like the adaption phase to something different. And I assure you that it wasnt impossible to find even a trace amount of uranium anywhere else but that one asteroid. I would bet that within 15km of you, there were 5+.

    And it still doesnt change the fact that you only, between the two of you, searched 11 asteroids, attempting to find 8 different ores. Assuming each is evenly represented for generation (unknown at this point) the odds of you getting all 8 by searching 11 asteroids is pretty low. It has been too long since I have taken statistics, and I never use the formulas, so I dont know the exact percentage, but I promise you that it isnt good.

    Before we had asteroids that were very close, and contained most, if not all the ores. So why would you be happy and excited about what was in it? You just went over, and found what you wanted. MAYBE you had to go to a different asteroid 1,000m away. They might as well have mined the ore for you.
     
  30. LittleTerror Apprentice Engineer

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    So you want it to be like it use to be, when you could just use a big drill ship to bore a large hole into a single asteroid and have enough to build a titan without ever having to move?

    The way it is now is a little more challenging which is a good thing, and remember exploration as they have said is going to be continuously worked on and improved. I think it would be nice to have large (like the old ones) asteroids spaced maybe every 100 - 200km which do have a little of everything, this could encourage the formation of hubs, a place people could call their home or whatever. Maybe they could be small clusters of asteroids tightly packed together with a higher abundance of precious metals, these could be areas of strategic importance, trade hubs, military bases etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2014
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