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Reasons against Paid Mods

Discussion in 'General' started by Morphik, Apr 24, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    [​IMG]
    Please be like SQUAD... don't be like Bethesda.

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    Donation Button for Modders? Just an idea?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
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  2. Mr B Trainee Engineer

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    Well, for one because the framework around it is so poor. Granted that's not Keens fault, but they should realise how it would seriously reduce enjoyment from their game and produce a raft of problems.

    Very dissapointed in the stance Marek seems to be taking on this. He must be fully aware of all the potential issues, by all means he seems pretty on the ball with everything else.

    Another question though. If someone copies a popular free mod (or paid for I suppose), and gets x amount of payments before it gets removed, do steam get to recover that money? I guess what I'm saying is if people get some quick cash by copying, are they able to keep it, as I'm guessing there's very little steam can do to get it back.
     
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  3. Leon Leo Leonhardt III Trainee Engineer

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    This does add in another massive problem that Skyrim doesn't have.

    Server play with paid mods.
    No one is going to pay money to play on a server before they get on the server.
    That would limit paid mods entirely to singleplayer.
     
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  4. Ceztu Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm more concerned about how this might impact the gaming industry as a whole.

    There are already plenty of games that come with shortcomings or bugs that are remedied by mods, and thus made playable or even in some cases very popular by them. Now if mods are put behind a pay wall, from which the games authors profit too, what will stop some of the more "evil" publishers to essentially turn mods into paid bug fixes?

    The idea of making bug fixes paid has already been thrown in once. This could give them a nice way of actually implementing it with the added bonus of not even having to make bug fixes themselves. It's like a car rolls of the line half made and you have to pay extra to actually get it going. It's absurd to even think about it.
    But the amount of insane, greedy and just plain evil moves companies did in the past makes me feel like what I'm writing here could become more than just a pessimistic theory.
     
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  5. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    If they are going to go ahead with paid mods they need to seriously consider dropping Steam out of the entire equation. Steam is taking something like 30% cut just for hosting the content. You can host content for pennies on that dollar. There are already better mod managers available than Steam workshop. If the mod creator was getting 70%+ like a regular software store it would be much more reasonable. Not to mention that Bethesda being as big of a publisher as it is, they are probably getting a better deal than KSH will. I wouldn't be surprised to see Valve try to take 50% of SE mod sales. And as poster above mentioned, this is going to be a nightmare for servers.
     
  6. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677


    I'm for supporting modders (as a modder myself) and I am usually on Valve's side. But this...This is where I draw the line...
     
  7. EvilDylan Apprentice Engineer

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  8. JayCo2013 Apprentice Engineer

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    I believe modders should be allowed to ask for a payment for their mod, however in recompense I would like to say that the Modder should be held responsible for that mods functional ability in the game for as long as the game is played, not JUST so long as its in production, if I pay for it I want it to work for as long as I wish to play it. I have several games which I still play on my current PC which I purchased and can still play from back when win95 was the best you could get. If MODS are purchasable then I want them to STAY in the game, not break with an update and the modder just ditch them, There should be some form of guanteed support for their mod BY them for so long as the game is going. The modder do it mainly for the joy of making mods, not for renumeration.
    Example, Game released in 2003, its still supported, its developer just released a mod for it which is paid for, The game is postal 2, its on steam.... Is Bethesda going to make sure that all those mods that the players are paying for are kept working, is there a refund policy if a modder decides to STOP supporting the mod.... for these reasons I hope that the modding community can forgive me but a few have left their mods completely unsupported, and no useless, I think without some form of guaranteed continuance of support I would NOT want mods to ever be purchaseable.
     
  9. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    I think marek is right about his ideas on payed mods, but I'd suggest staying out of this until the whole thing calms down and the system is sorted out by the market.
     
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  10. donteven Trainee Engineer

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    I think this was a idea gone toxic, Giving the modder a button to make a user pay for that mod is a good idea on paper but not in the real world. It just has too many real-world problems.
    Lets just stick to donations.
     
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  11. Mr B Trainee Engineer

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    6
    Thanks for the link, read it in full.

    Have to say it seems like he is swinging towards it, although he has said that it's early days.

    I think it's going to cause issues, and there's never going to be the policing of this sort of thing available to have it properly done. But....it's a revenue stream, so...*shrugs*

    On a related note, I just donated to the author of the LCD screens. Not just for the mod, but the fact he went to the effort of putting in all the documentation for it.
     
  12. Morphik Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't know, Marek's post of "Why would you limit modders' options to release a paid mod if he wants so?" is so vague I can't make heads or tails of it. Can anyone tell me what he is talking about limiting modders' options? To the steam store? minimum amount? what!?
     
  13. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    He's saying that since this would be completely optional to mod authors, why not allow it.
    However the implications of allowing such an option go far and wide, which I don't know if he see's that.

    If this were to be implemented in other games, it should be Patreon-style without the huge cuts from Valve/devs.
    It's too late now though, even if there was redeeming factor for the system at some point. The damage is done.
    First impressions are everything and boy...did Bethesda give us a whopping first impression.
     
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  14. Grek Trainee Engineer

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    Moar money for GABEN!!!!:munch:
     
  15. DuneD Junior Engineer

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    Basically if a modder wants to charge you by their content, its up to them. About limitting modders options, he means that it should be up to the modder if he wants to get money from it. If there is an option inside the workshop to charge for an item, what Keen wont do is take that away from you.

    Still, i've been reading reddit for the whole day (my head hurts), since I made a mod for skyrim back in 2012 ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/15775/? ), got really popular, but I wouldnt charge a dime for it, since it was co-dependent of other mods (FNIS and SKSE), and it also goes against my principles. Back to the topic, valve has gone too far with this, and the community is responding in a very very agressive way against both BETH and VALVE. Seen the flamewar going on, I dont think its on the best interest of Keen to take a position now. Best way to go is to dig through the ashes of the skyrim modding community and find a propper way to implement this method, its funny how in 24h an entire modding community is at war, with modders taking down their mods from nexus, people stealing mods and selling them in steam... Its a really messy situation outhere.
     
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  16. DrCyanide Apprentice Engineer

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    This is interesting:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/marek_rosa/status/591912805445533696

    The Wikipedia article on Derivative Works cites that there was a court case with Nintendo, over the Game Genie, which customized the games Nintendo had made. While certainly more simplistic than what we have today, it's still comparable to mods. The court ruled that it wasn't Derivative Work at play, but rather Fair Use.

    The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable."

    Such a ruling really knocks the game developers out of a cut of mod profits, which might bring things closer to the 70% mod developer/30% store pricing we see in the Apple App Store and Google Play. At that point, then we can start to argue that this might be good for the mod developers.

    I said this in my earlier post, but the current payment system is likely to only result in lowest common denominator mods flooding the market. An armor block mod will go for X dollars, regardless of the effort put in. A weapons mod will go for Y dollars, regardless of the effort put in.
     
  17. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    I think the best idea would be to add sort of prizes to people who donate to a modder and the modder could make up the prize like early access to a newer version of a mod, a donator suggestion group to suggest what the modder could add next, a special server or something for mod donators, etc.
     
  18. Spets Master Engineer

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    I'm ok for modders to get paid or donations, but not for all the reasons people had mention over an over. Fraud, Stolen work, Steam 75% Scam, etc.
     
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  19. DuneD Junior Engineer

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    Well, there is the issue of licenses too. Most modders are using either piracy or student licenses to make their products, which is fine, aslong as you dont take profit from it. So legally speaking, If I want people to pay for my mod I need to buy a license for 3dsmax, which costs 3.650$, photoshop is probably around that number aswell..

    There is also the copyright issue, something nexus is very familiar with. Ppl have already being sued for releasing themed mods (aka star wars, star trek....) and they were giving those mods for free.
     
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  20. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    I'm gonna stick with my opinion and say donators should get advantages. If it was just a straight out donate button you'd probably only get 5% of the people who subscribed to the mod to donate, but if you added advantages/prizes you might get up to 25%.

    Edit: I think I'll make an example. I bet a lot of you guys played minecraft, so have you ever seen those servers that rely on donators to run it. It's not like you just donate and get nothing in return. You usually get like commands, mining area, or chat room. These are advantages that don't really affect non donators but give luxuries to donators.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
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  21. DuneD Junior Engineer

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    948
    Yes, an encouraged donation system is the way to go.
     
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  22. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    No doubt, that would be the best way to handle it and should have been handled that way.
    Only problem is, they didn't. So now we have to deal with that fallout, which means getting the community flurried up about it if we ever want to see change.
     
  23. waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    1,499
    To me it seems that everyone complaining is either complaining about something that has absolutely nothing to do with selling mods itself, or feels like valve is putting a pricetag on all mods while they were free before and doesnt like that.

    Eg some complaints are things that apply to sale of any product, not mods in particular (so its just 'I want everything to be free like before'):
    -Valve takes a small cut because the mod is distributed through their platform. Complain to the developer for using valves platform, dont blame valve. This is just fair (they dont event take a cut for free mods!)
    -The developer takes a cut because the workshop is kind of their platform too (they offer the game and implement modding support). Complain to the developer if they think they deserve 75%. Again nothing to do with selling of mods itself.
    -If people sell stuff and get an unfair profit (eg they used other peoples stuff excessively) or use tools with commercial restrictions to make the mods, thats just legal stuff and is an issue for any sold product. Nothing to do with selling mods.
    -If paid mods have issues with compatibility or break aften an update, thats just like with any other product. Dont buy mods for unreliable (bad mod support) platforms (games being platforms), dont buy mods with bad reputation.

    Though if you have a free mod, you should be able to continue using it if it later becomes paid (so savegames and such continue working). I dont know if it works like this currently, but it wouldnt make any sense if it didnt. Even updates should continue without having to buy it, because with mods the updates often are necessary to continue use. But again, thats not an issue with paying for mods itself, just an implementation detail that needs to be done right.
     
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  24. Leon Leo Leonhardt III Trainee Engineer

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    Yes the system brings a lot more problems beyond just selling mods.
     
  25. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  26. functional Trainee Engineer

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    As long as the initial issues with paid mods are solved (if they can be, that is), I don't actually feel bad for the existence of paid mods. Though I really wish that they would wait until Bethesda has actually proven it to work or proven that it doesn't work, before doing anything in this regard.
     
  27. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    Okay, I think I understand marek's point of view now. He could care less if steam allows payed mods, donation buttons, etc. All he wants to do is to not limit what's allowed on the steam workshop, so if something is added to the workshop he will most likely add it.
     
  28. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    Go check out Skyrim store page on Steam.. absolutely huge flood of downvotes / negative reviews.
     
  29. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    Stop comparing two completely different games and modding communities. That's not gonna prove anything. You don't see people in space engineers making custom swords or armor that just look different (well some do but most have an extra purpose besides looking different). I'm not saying the system is good, yet. I'm saying that you shouldn't say that something will never work. I hate when people object new ideas and just want to go back to the old ways.
     
  30. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    The system is "Modders are now a Commodity".
     
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