Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

?

Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,421

    Could you just go over those calculations one more time....:munch:

    ;)
    --- Automerge ---




    Edit:......
    ____________
    [In terms of the in-game limits, are they realistic? Can someone travel to a new solar system, for example?


    “Well, there are limits. Just a few weeks ago we introduced a new feature called Super Large Worlds. Until now, the limit was far shorter because after that the math would get wonky and imprecise and everything would begin to shake after a small distance. Now though you can travel up to 6.6 astronomical units (one unit = 149 597 871 kilometres). That is basically from the Sun to Jupiter. And it is stable, it is solid. We don’t do galaxy to galaxy. We also have asteroids which are procedural which means that when you fly in this vast space they begin to appear. You can drill a cave on the asteroid or make whatever changes you can imagine. You can then leave but if you ever come back you will come across it again: it is there for good.”
    ]
    _____________

    Is the above correct then, I can travel 6.6 au or 987,345,948km ap ?


    Further Edit:.....

    Don't answer, because its a rhetorical question, I know I can't. But someone that clearly doesn't play the game, told me I could.. :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,390
    You can travel the distance, but there's nothing there but procedureally generated asteroids.

    Unless you put stuff out there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,421
    I think your right, but once you try and do anything, the game doesn't want to stay stable. I couldn't do it in a ship, as the windows and everything else would bug out (windows first) just half a million km in. Plus no mining as the rocks don't appear near you, they appear elsewhere. Planet surfaces float above the planet itself etc..
    So yes, I guess he might have been right, fly that distance, yes, but don't play the game. ;)


    Edit:

    I don't mind really, the time has gone.
    I wish they would introduce boxes (did I say that out loud) for SE2..:eek:
    You know, jump into the next box for travelling. If it can't be done within the same 'space' then do what every other space game does and cheat, build it using boxes..
    Not a technical term, I have no idea what the tech terms are ('instance', perhaps), I'm not a dev. But we could travel say, 150,000km then have to jump into the next box and start again.. Does any of it make sense to anyone, I'm not sure what I'm talking about (clearly)..:?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  4. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Yeah, 6.6 au are those 10^9 km. Also it would be nice to mention when it was stated, as From what I know, 64bit version and double precision position is in SE for many years, since then many things changes.

    Also I suppose you can travel that far, don't think anything will be stopping you.

    But let me ask non-rhetorical one(s). What do you do in that space? Are you flying somewhere just for the sake of flying somewhere? Or does the space feel different when you are 50 000 km from origin?
    (I am serious, I really don't get why anyone would need such distances for playing. It would take you months? years? to visit every asteroid and every corner in area you got. I just see no reason why would anyone need a world bigger that... dozen thousands of kilometers for normal playing. So I assume you are just attempting to troll. )
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,421
    Ah you see, that's where our conversation just stopped..
     
  6. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Too bad, I was really getting curious if you could actually bring any good reason for such a big worlds (other than seeing big numbers on your GPSs). But life would be boring when there would be no mysteries. :)
     
  7. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,390
    You and I share a desire to boldly go where no one has gone before ;)

    It is difficult for a lot of people to imagine taking a long voyage in an SE ship because in general people just want to go from point A to point B, and if the game makes it possible to get to B instantly then that's what they want. Especially since the introduction of planets. Planets were desired as a "place to go". When we got them, they became a "place to escape from". Before planets we talked about "exploration". Going in random directions and encountering derelict spacecraft and stations to loot and/or confiscate. Now we have all the pieces to make a universe full of destinations and encounters, but people get hung up on the time it takes to get anywhere. This is caused primarily by the "one person - one ship" way that most people play SE and because other games make the universe for you and you get from planet to planet in a few seconds. Encounters are usually just aliens with chips on their shoulders (if they have shoulders). The idea of a long space trip is inconceivable because no game will even let it happen, much less provide concepts of things that could occur during the voyage. SE is different from the other space games because it offers the possibility to create your own systems and populate them with exotic planets spaced far apart with a likelihood of encounters along the way, yet people configure their destinations with plenty of things to do, with no similar effort put into trip itself, so the trip is boring and something to be avoided.

    Besides, Keen gave us worlds a billion kilometers across, then tells us we're nuts for wanting to travel more than a few hundred thousand?

    Recently Marek expressed a desire to see SE hosted on servers and you could travel from server to server seamlessly. The concept has been discussed and Rexxar made a "proof of concept" script shortly before Keen hired him. I like the idea. I think it answers the "nowhere to go, nothing to do" argument. I am unsure how the community feels about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Nothing... in most cases nothing will happen. Maybe you have to repair something or do some basic maintenance, but I expect that there is usually nothing interesting happening in space... It is just barren empty space.
    --- Automerge ---
    Never said anything about nuts, but... now I imagined pistachios and I am getting hungry... thank you very much... :D

    Anyway. That you can do something does not mean you should do it nor that there is any good reason to do it. From what was said here, there was only "I want big world!" and complaining that worlds are small. No one has stated why would they need it or what practical gain would anyone get from it.

    That's like saying "I want a gold bar."
    If you state no reason why, it is bullshit.
    If you say something like you are going to solve world hunger, you need to finance research for cure for some cancer, etc. then it makes sense, it is honorable and probably you will find people who will sponsor your endeavors.
    If you want it just for sake of being gold and shiny and pretty, then gold plated brick is all you need.

    About those 1 bilion km... I actualy never tried it, had no reason to do so. But if it worked and now it does not, it is probably a bug. If it never worked, then who knows, haven't been in keen in that time so I got no idea who was implementing it.
    --- Automerge ---
    Never heard of it, is it somewhere written, or in some stream? (I usually don't watch Xocliw's stream as they are usually too late to wake up early to work.)
    --- Automerge ---

    Even though in some countries in the world you were given the opportunity to go to supermarket and buy there assault rifle and you have the possibility to buy it and start shooting people on the streets, it does not mean there is any good reason for it, that you should do it and most people will never need to do it in their lives. But the possibility still remains there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    The reason the world is as big as it is now, is that this is simply the next size step up. Previously floats (32-bit decimal values) were used to represent coordinates. That was way too small, you could barely move past 100km or whatever it was before stuff got completely useless. The solution to this was to move to double (64-bit decimal values). That's what has vastly increased the potential size. The only way to get an intermediate size would be to manually restrict it.

    This means, @Stardriver907, that the alternative would be not to even be able to travel those "few hundred thousand" at all... or even the small distances between the current planets.


    Mind you, I'm also one of those "nuts" people who would like the need for a bit of a travel time... Not quite at your level, but close enough that I too would like a few fixes :p


    For me the default placement of the planets are way too close.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    624
    There is one very good reason to have stuff 50,000km out - planets. They're big, really big. My latest survival game I wanted an end goal to aim for in the form of a planetery system. But it just doesn't feel right putting it too close, so I put it far far out so it looks like a tiny spec on the backdrop of space. I have since lost this planet, but... never mind that.

    Wandering along in its general direction between 2000km jumps (of which 25 would be needed) would be quite nice to do I think, find some wrecks, raid some pirate stations while the jump drives recharge and then jump again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    At 50000km, you should still have a precision of 6-7 decimals with a double.
     
  12. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    You know, you can just... I don't know... make smaller jumps? :D if you want full jumps, you can always mod the jump drives to have shorter jumps :D

    You will never notice the difference between 2kkm jump and 2kkkkkkm jump. They are just numbers for you.
     
  13. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    That really isn't true though, as there's a huge difference in what you see in relation to the planets. With the distances currently in game, the planets look more like moons, visually, than planets.
     
  14. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    373
    Isn't there a draw distance limit for planets? I feel like if you jump around 5Mm you lose sight of the planets totally. At whatever this point is, a jump x+1m or greater would feel the same.

    As for wanting longer travel times... The speed limit is already 100m/s unless you use one of the bajillion speed mods out there (why so many? I wonder if it's because reducing the travel time is in great demand). You could use the reduce speed limit to 60m/s mod I guess.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    I am really not sure how much of planet you will see from distance of 5000 km with 120km diameter. But still, you cannot expect solar system with realistic scales. That's something that no game using current technologies will offer to you (with precision of millimeters).
    Live with it. Maybe it should be able to deal with 1 000 000 000 km from origin and it is just bug, maybe new limitations arose over time. But still if you need world with such distances, you are clearly doing something wrong...

    Or cutting down the jump distance would probably solve the case. :D You would spend same amount of time on much smaller map, and yet would visit the same amount of previously unseen space. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Wow At least one person here who understands me! :D That's exactly what I tought about speeds and speed mods. (But I didn't dare to bring it here as it will definitely bring here a shitstorm :D But as cat is already out of bag... :D ) Longer travel? just fly at 10 m/s instead of 100 m/s. It will take you 10 times more time. And you will not notice much difference as there will be nothing around you for reference, only you and your ship.
     
  16. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    373
    Woah too fast!

    Just convert your ship into a station, sit in the cockpit, and make wooshing noises! Fun and sim friendly!
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    @Petr Beranek Planet, 5Kkm distance
    [​IMG]
    I'm not expecting realistic scales. Not even close. I'm not even realistically expecting the "promised" 6.6AU. I've been programming for a couple of decades, I know how this works, at least to a good degree. This is what I would consider a good minimum distance between planets. You can see a planet from well over 20 thousand kilometers away, it'll look like a star at that point. Perfect for a scenario.

    I don't need 5 million kilometer range. 50-100 thousand kilometers would be way enough for me as that'd make it easy to space the planets out nicely. And yeah, you can see the planets at that range. And the tech you guys are using should be able to handle those kinds of distances easily, but when I played at these distances last there were plenty of issues.


    Still, I must admit it's been a while since I've played, especially at these distances. I can't remember exactly what the issues were... but it seems like some of the issues I were seeing has been fixed already. I'll have to try a bit more before I can confirm that this actually works now. I made the assumption that these folks were talking about the same issues I had, I might have been wrong about that.

    I won't even comment on the "reduce speed" nonsense other than to say that I won't comment on the "reduce speed" nonsense... :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    624
    The number of jumps is not the point, the point is to make the planet actually appear to be a distant goal rather than something you're already quite close to.

    Just so happens 25 jumps would be needed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    I think i can safely assume that these massive diatances from origin are usually not tested at all(in last mpnths/years at least). There is only limited amount of resources (manpower) an basicaly no one complained about it before (and as it has not been, at least intentionaly, modified in last few years, there was no reason to assume something was wrong. If no one complains, it is either working or not used by anyone -> then not needed to test).

    I already discussed it with Ondrej (QA lead), but who knows when they will get to it. I might look at it during weekend, but that depends if I will have some free time (and weekends are usually the only time I have for my own projects).

    In the end, it would be easier if someone who actively plays at those distances wrote down what exactly is wrong (instead of "you can get there but you cannot play" kind of things). That would probably increase the chance of it being fixed instead of increasing the chance you will get ignored.
    --- Automerge ---
    Then dont use jump drive at all and even 2kkm will be a really distant goal. Decrease max speed to 1m/s and even base on the other side of hill will be distant goal. And the moon? That will take you few months of traveling (no idea how far from earth it is ingame). :-D

    Yeah visual clues are a different thing. But after a while, your brain will get used to the scales.
     
  20. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    @Petr Beranek Oh there has been reports. I even found one with just a quick eyeball search, in less than 5 minutes, on page 5 in the bug report forum. Just as an example. It's a minor issue and few months old though, it's from november last year... but if you're right with what you're saying, that it hasn't been touched for years, chances are that issue still remains. But the point is, anyway, that people have noticed issues so perhaps you guys should add some distance to your tests... so to speak... :p You are advertising with these kinds of sizes, you know. On the store page. Of course people will expect that you can actually use the distances you advertise with.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Yeah I definitely agree. There are many things that should be added to regular tests, but that would probably lenghten those tests much more. It would be nice (not sure if they do it or not, so don't take my words) if also every sound was tested that it is played in all cases it should be played, same with all particles. Do those tests on SP and DS (How many of you noticed missing and incorrect block destruction particles on DS? but shhhh! I said nothing! :D ) Test all particle, block placement, and other things on static grids, on moving grids, on grids far from origin, on moving grids far from origin. Test all weapons (projectiles/missiles) on static grids, moving grids, far from origin, moving grids far from origin, all those tests on SP and DS.

    You can probably imagine that would require a legion of QA... I completely understand that some tests are reduced and some cases (such as fast moving things far from origin) has way lower priority than things close to origin. :D

    PS All sound tests should be doubled as there are arcade and realistic sounds. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Page 5? :D I think that Zhilla is glad he has time to go through all those newly appeared bugs, as he is standard QA who just happened to also be given duty to check forum :D (And I also spam him with every bug I find in game during work, as he is the closest QA sitting to me... So I am just wondering how long till he has complete mental breakdown because of me. :D )
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  22. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    @Petr Beranek Oh, yeah, trust me, I know the agony of QA. I don't envy Zhilla at all. I'm pretty sure the poster didn't add it to page 5 though :p However, that wasn't the point. That bug might even have been picked up and dealt with for all I know. The point is, bugs have been reported regarding this. I have even submitted a few myself at some point.

    But. Consider this.

    If stuff works well at high-numbered coordinates, they will work well near the center.

    Ergo... there isn't really any need to add more tests. Just do the tests you have at bigger distances and you'll do both at once ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Yeah, but there is high number of variables involved. Was it because of movement? Was it because of distance? Was it because something completely different? Then it would have to be cut into smaller separate cases, then fix it, then do tests from bottom back up... And there always could be a thing that you didn't even considered to influence it or problem could be compound of several separate bugs, that just multiply severity of each other. There you would have to do all tests from top to bottom, then fix it, and start tests from bottom up. Also there would be lot of things to be checking in that test which would highly increase chance of human error as multitasking is in most cases a bad idea.

    I think that more straithforward approach is to start with elementary cases and fix them and work your way from bottom to top. Not only you skip that descending part, you also reduce variables, things that has to be noticed and thus the chande of human error. The other thing about the other approach is that you would have to have those tests really thoroughly prepared to not hide some problem or not to distort results of those test subparts.

    Consider adding to that test that grid will also rotate at high speed (as that is also case that should be tested). Not sure what the tester would noticle from all those smeared colors on his screen while he would be violently vomiting into his keyboard due to severe motion sicknes induced by all that movement. :D

    PS You also usually start with unit tests and work your way up instead of starting with complete program, don't you? :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    I wish that was the reality of things...
     
  25. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    I think this approach would be good if you know there are lot of independant things that affect one exact variable to measure (like smoothness of movement or something) and you know there won't be much bugs. Or you know that you need to solve all bugs related to that thing because it all has high priority(Or it was not important in what order you solve those problems).

    General problem with movement has really critical priority priority as it is core part of game 100% of players encounter (and it disables every developer who works with moving grids at that moment). But problem with movement when you are on the edge of playable area that is explored by less than 1% of players is still really severe problem, but it has really low priority due to being only corner case that rarely happens and there are more urgent things.

    With this approach all tests would fail as they would be performed on distant moving grids and you would have to descend deeper in that tree every time you would be retesting something only to find it is still caused by this corner case that you have no time to solve as it still has way lower priority than other things.
    --- Automerge ---
    Yeah... a bit utopistic idea, I know. :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    @Petr Beranek Yeah but I for one aren't talking about millions of kilometers. I'm talking about a reasonable range available with the default vanilla jump drive. That's still well within what should be quite usable and if they don't work... there are bugs. Bugs which then is likely to actually be occurring in lower ranges too, causing issues but values being so small that they might be harder to detect with normal testing.

    Anyway. All of this is moot.
     
  27. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    575
    mayyyybe bugs such as mysteriously exploding parked tires being misplaced inside a voxel??
     
  28. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,468

    Things move kind of wonky at 250,000 meters from world origin and up (0,0,0). Could it be from truncation of the least significant digits? (rounding errors)?
     
  29. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,031
    @Ronin1973 With 250000 meters and double based coordinates you have a precision of 8-9 decimals. So it's not likely to be that simple. Rounding errors might occur, but would be so small as to be harmless.

    What I mean is that 250000.000000001 is a valid double. (in negative too)
     
  30. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Oh my God... not this again :D
    This is surely part of Inflex's daily nightmares by now. :D
    Thing is... none of us ever reproduced it... It is just legendary bug... rarity can be compared to seeing a unicorn... that has a real corn cob instead of horn on his forehead.
    It also happens suddenly, unexpectedly and without obvious reason. Also in the moment wheels explode, it is too late... We would need the situation right before it explodes. :D
    Actually not sure if it got fixed, but as far as I know, there were no clues.

    PS for illustration:
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.