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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

?

Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Actually yes.
    Lot of people were complaining none of devs notice them, so I decided I will at least try to make contact with people.
    So I check here every time I compile or load game. Sometimes it take me several loadings/compilation to finish one post, but I believe you can survive that my posts are sometimes bit delayed (or some other appear before I respond).
     
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  2. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    And you think this is what players had in mind when they complained regards that..
    Lets treat the players that want to play the game.. with contempt.. just because they want to play the game as advertised...

    Wow, very unusual appoach you have. Lets hope that your next employer sees that in you, prior to giving you a job.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    I see no contempt here. (Interesting word, never used it before :D ) If you do, then point it out, there is no reason to start attacking people.

    I was asking you a question, you rudely exited in middle of discussion without answering, and when I commented what you did and that you still hasn't answered yet, you just became aggressive.
    --- Automerge ---
    And what do you expect me to do? Should I start mourning SE and apologizing to you for everything terrible that happened to you over the years when you were exploring the edges of the ingame universe? That's actually not in my contract. (Actually none of this is in my contract. :D That I spend time here, discuss things with QA and looks at issues during weekends is my free time.)
     
  4. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    @Petr Beranek gota say... @chrisb does seem right in that the way you come off is sometimes hostile. Perhaps you don't mean to be or you are stressed from what ever work you are currently doing but, it IS happening.
     
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  5. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206

    Everything is subject to change. :D
    I don't know what do you expect? Early access game to be fully working? Are you aware what "early access" means, right?
    Also hope you are not expecting that because you say something does not work, we will start fixing it right away. There are priorities and also a plan. It will be fixed... eventually. But you can't expect us to drop everything we do, throw plans away, put major on hold and start fixing your issue.
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, you can point out. I see nothing hostile here. Maybe you are just taking things way more seriously than me. :D I usually don't take things much seriously... Why shortening your life because of a game? :D If I wanted to shorten my life, I would probably start smoking or doing adrenaline sports. :D
     
  6. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    And how long do you think it's reasonable to expect this excuse to be acceptable to paying customers? I for one didn't think I'd be able to complete a Masters Degree from scratch before seeing this game finished. At a certain point it starts to feel like the whole thing is a big joke ESPECIALLY when bug reports are criticized instead of acknowledged.

    You don't say.
     
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  7. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Oh, congratz. What was the topic? (And of course the field of your studies.)
    --- Automerge ---
    Actually 5 years does not seem to me that long. Especially in such a small team.

    With hundread people it would probably go faster, but still it takes time.
    --- Automerge ---
    It has been acknowledged, but I just wanted to know the reason he needs it so much. Turned out he wants it because we said it can be done.

    I could be putting here things like "Thanks for report. Report has been received and will be addressed as soon as possible. Have a nice day.", but I suppose that none of us here needs those boilerplate answers.
    --- Automerge ---
    Actually this is quite important thing. The only reason why I have been bothering with it so much and why I plan to test it during weekend is that reason of "planet spacing". If there was any better reason, I might have tried to poke the QA a bit so they looked at it earlier. But with reason "I want it because you said it can be done.", all I would do would probably be telling QA "Some guy on forum says he can't go too far from origin. Test it please when you have time.", they would write down a note to other things that they will eventually ticketize and we would probably get to it before the game releases.
     
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  8. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    I'm of the thought that having playable space being measured in light seconds isn't really useful. The largest distances I've traveled in game was on a DS that had put the planets like 10Mm apart. You couldn't see them so locating was still difficult. It felt like they were far enough apart to make the distances believable enough.

    It's easy to see how vast distances can cause more problems than they are worth which is why I say lower the possible radius to make things easier. That server migration concept makes even more sense then too.

    That bug could sit on the back burner imo.
     
  9. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    @Burstar I might misremember but I'm quite sure that light seconds thing was a community contribution.
     
  10. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    1,000,000,000 km is ~3.33 ls
     
  11. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    I personaly think measurements in ls are bullshit... it is really unintuitive, is hard to convert fo metric units and is something that normal person cannot imagine how much it is.... I expected 1 000 000 000 km to be way more than 3.33 ls...
    That would make 1 ls to be a bit over 300 000 000 km. there should be units in between... like Mm, Gm, then probably Tm... I know it they are not usually used, but they are still valid SI units and it is easy to convert, fast to compare and it can be related to something in real life.
    --- Automerge ---
    PS Are there Mm Gm and Tm or just km and then ls? (I hope they are there)
     
  12. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    Steam advice for every early access game.
    Why even discuss?
     
  13. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    I'm quite aware what a light second is thank you :D What I was saying is that I believe the feature that converts the value to light seconds was a community contribution.
     
  14. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    woops got my units wrong :/

    3.33ls is 1,000,000,000 m not km. 1x10*9 km would be almost a light hour or 6.7x the distance we are from the Sun :p

    Regardless. the point is it is a ridiculously large distance to be travelling 100m/s in :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  15. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,460
    May help some people here inc devs: https://www.traditionaloven.com/tutorials/distance/convert-light-seconds-ls-to-kilometer-km.html

    'Contempt' because instead of saying, we'll be working on it at some stage. You ask why I would want to go out a fraction of the distance the game tells me I can go.
    To me that is just you trying to hide the fact you have no idea why the ad tells players the game has a playing area of 1 Billion km's, because you have no idea how to make the game work further than 250,000km's.

    Out of 1 billion km play area, I have actually used a 4million km play area, just a fraction of the supposed play area.

    Now put the two figures together and tell me in a percentage how far in the game have I gone. Its pretty miniscule how far I have travelled, compared to that advertised on Steam.

    Start..me........................................................................................................................................................500 Million

    There is a chessy graphic, just incase you can't get where I am, at present, in the game. I am nowhere near any edge in the game, I would have to travel one hell of a distance to get there, but I would have travelled that far. However, unfortunately this game starts to fall to bits after 250,000km's, which is really (according to the above scale) the 'a' in the word start..... Probably not even that, could be the 'S' at that scale..
    :/
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  16. Georgik Apprentice Engineer

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    215
    We get your point, but I am not sure if you get ours.
    You didn't answered the questiom. Why. You still repeat you can't and you should. That's it? You want to show us that ad info is incorrect? Yes, you are right. Does it have really big consequences. I doubt. End.
     
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  17. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    There is no question for anyone to ask me... Why...
    Because the game tells me I can.. so why not ??
     
  18. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    927
    That logic is so flawed. Taking agency in advertising claims with a true sense of entitlement is a great way to be disappointed and impotently furious all the time.

    .. and is a great path towards an early embolism- so I dont recommend it.

    But hey! bright side! I guess we can all be thankful you never read the ad
    "Play with your friends online. And Murder them"
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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  19. Georgik Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    215
    Ok.
    Anyways I was a bit curious and traced the root of many issues.
    It's not surprise it's all about decimal precisions.
    I travelled to 8 billions km (much more than what features states), and played with physics and shooting etc. was fine. Maybe my gun flickered a bit, but just few millimeters. Problems were with placing blueprints, spawning ore, GPS and camera position in debug view.
    Placing objects will actually put them in a distance, and I noticed these were the powers of 2. To make it short, I found the precision (mantisa) of Single floating point number, which is 24 bits. Because it is for each coordinate axis separately, it means if you get to the distance of x=16777216, your camera position debug info, GPS and blueprints are placed rounded to integers. Specifically, if you move beyond 16777216, the exponent exceeds 24, and your mantisa will lose last bit of information, resulting in jumps by 2. (...214,...215,...216,...218,...220). Reaching 33554432 results in jumps by 4, then 8 etc.
    Physics are intact, maybe it has something to do with those physics worlds, 'cause that seems like a good solution to me.

    Since it affects many different things, I think it's also a reason of your weird fall to a planet. And I hope it's also the one causing voxel glitches.
    I hope they make all the rest of things to type Double, as they did with the most of other things.
     
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  20. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    You know, as a player that has pushed the limits since the game's inception, I should be the last person to say why not. However, even I have to wonder what would be the point of, say, spawning in a new world 800,000 km from the origin. I already know nothing is there, and that I will be 300,000 km away from anything if I do it, meaning at game speeds even with jump drive I'll be looking at, what, weeks? months? of travel. So the only reason to do it is because I can.

    Apparently the only reason the world got bigger was to make the math easier, not to give us more room. Petr has not denied the issue and has even stated he would look into it. I suspect the issue, at least in part, might be related to the amount of horsepower your rig can generate (or perhaps your CPU is asking you why you are doing this to him?) I've spent years in these forums reading a lot of complaints and I gotta tell you compared to everything else this particular complaint is so minuscule no wonder it's invisible to the devs. Fixing it will make the game better? Most people wouldn't even be aware it happened, and the one's that did would be right here asking Keen why they wasted time on something so unimportant. Perhaps Keen could hire you to explain it to them?

    I don't know cause I've never tried it, and I am currently without a suitable computer to test it, but if you start a session and set a waypoint 800,000 km from the origin and then teleport there, I imagine everything would appear normal. The sun would be the same size, your skybox would look the same, and you would be surrounded by procedural asteroids. In SP this would just be a waste of time. In MP on a server it might be a good idea... idk. I just don't think it's on the average player's to-do list.

    After years of complaining about lack of communication from developers, we finally get one in here and you are trying your level best to make him wish he hadn't. Fortunately he appears to be a big boy that can take it and dish it out as well, so I'm not here to defend him so much as to point out to you that I seriously doubt you can win this debate. Your arguments are mostly emotion and his arguments are reason and logic (I may have issues with one or both, but at least he gives me something to work with. Trying to get a handle on one of your arguments is like trying to grab air). As I have said many times here and elsewhere, when your arguments devolve into personal attacks that means you have lost and you are hoping to derail the debate by provoking your opponent into anger. This is clearly not working. You should try something else. Reason and logic, perhaps?

    That was quite a list. A lot that I can agree with.

    Um, did you by any chance mention any of them to your boss? He doesn't listen to me. Maybe he'll listen to you?

    You know, when he first showed up I would have agreed with you but I have to say I'm beginning to enjoy his style. He seems to be the only person on Keen's staff except for maybe Marek himself that will say what he thinks and answer questions honestly without fretting about hurting the feelings of someone who is clearly trying to hurt his.

    For his sake, though, maybe whoever is in charge of this forum should add a Kappa emoji?





    Perhaps for my sake as well?
     
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  21. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    Its unfortunate @stardriver but you just don't get it.

    The argument is not an argument, there is nothing to argue over, the video is there plus many others I have put up over 4yrs. The point is the dev plus you and some others try to defend something that is indefensible. Misleading advert.
    Why should I try and connect two blocks, because I can and it said in the info the game is about building. So why can't I travel 1 billion km or 500million in one direction ? its not a case of why would you, its a case of it said I can..

    I know they won't fix this and other issues, its been painfully clear they haven't got the devs to do it. That has been clear for some time now.

    You can defend a broken game for so long, just to state here, it will remain in beta, because they can't fix it.
    UK law states, a refund is on the cards should there be misleading advertising on any product, includes games now. So KSH will leave it in beta, that way they can just 'kick the can' down the road forever, as they have done before.

    US law I'm not sure of, but Australian law got tougher with Steam a few years back. The tide is changing and these devs that produce sub-standard games, should be called out for what they are.
    But your certainly in your right to defend that type of product, let the devs keep doing it, with players that will defend them, of course they will.

    I got past defending them, its clear with the responses here, that they try and turn the topic/question, because they don't know the answers. I know the game is broken, its there to see. I also suspect it will remain that way. This could be o.k. with you, but its not with me, too many games have gotten a letby because players/fanbois see no wrong. I see the wrong and point it out. They try and shuffle around it, with no clear answer to what they are going to do about it.
    --- Automerge ---
    I just had a weird but frightening thought. KSH or whatever they are calling the other company, is doin 'Good AI'.
    The military are thinking of having autonomous machine guns on the battlefield that uses AI. Can you imagine if they installed 'Good AI'...
    Everyone would be dead, inc the good guys, but don't worry, it was only in early access at the time.. Possibly beta.

    Problem sorted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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  22. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    @chrisb Petr outright admitted they are understaffed, and it is clear that they are still working on it.

    Is the pace satisfactory? I admit, even my patience is wearing thin, but in the end I don't think that matters because they are already doing what they can with what they have. You are angry at Petr for doing you the courtesy of responding, but really you should direct your ire at Marek and any other management for their incompetence, not the minions doing their jobs.

    Finally, the issue regarding the abyss bug isn't false advertising if they intend to fix it and Petr has stated they have. Again, if KSH does rollback the playable area to practical numbers it's also not Petr' fault.
     
  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,192
    Dude, taking an obscure and insignificant statement about what might be possible in the game and trying to make it seem like the centerpoint of some type of Grand Scheme to part innocent video game players from their hard-earned money is just grasping at straws. Your reason is ludicrous and your logic is nonexistent. You just say, "Keen said you could play the game a billion kilometers away from the origin, and you can't. Therefore they should refund all our money." Try to make that case in any court in any country and after they stop laughing they will ask you to quit wasting their time.

    This is not "defending Keen." This is rational response to emotional outburst. Many of us are seriously wondering how you can call an unfinished game "broken", especially while they are actively trying to fix it. I can kind of understand the confusion because you have paid for the game and have a copy on your computer. Under normal circumstances you would have a right to be upset and seek legal action because you bought a finished product. That's NOT what you did when you bought Space Engineers. You willingly bought a "broken" game with no guarantee whatsoever that it would EVER be "fixed" because you thought you might like it and you got it cheap. It's all in black and white on both Steam and KSH pages: no guarantees. This is why any court would laugh you out of the room. You are literally upset because you got what you paid for.

    So, yes, the argument is not an argument. There is nothing to argue over. Keen did not lie or mislead. YOU jumped to conclusions. That is why you find no sympathy here. The rest of us are discussing things that matter.

    Like Unicorn farts.
     
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  24. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

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    416
    Greetings

    @Petr Beranek :beer: + Hugs, figure you could use them about now. Seems to me this whole distance thing is just :words: storm in a teacup at least to me. If I was going to complain it'd be about the still dodgy pistons and rotors and lack of fluff content forcing us players to rely on mods (mods break way more then the game and the makers stop playing leaving them to go out of date) so much to bring our worlds to life. Anyhoo I suppose I am not too worried as I haven't played much since they nerfed small reactors so badly ( thanks to the mathheads and realists ) making it hard to have nice small ship fleets. :(
     
  25. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    927
    ... And you know what? This is yet another thing that just infuriates me.

    This is such an easy fix- yet is NEVER IMPLEMENTED:

     
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  26. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    You know the false entitlement from other players is part of why i rarely post here anymore, but this one is really up there on the ridiculous list. No, they dont owe you money because an advert fell short on what they envisioned, it was not a promise, it was a hope that did not pan out due to technical limitations, at this point im convinced you are just trying to win the arguement. Budweiser ads told me hot model chicks would crowd around me if i drank their beer, but im not complaining that i need my money back. You are so gloriously off base with this that im a bit saddened that its taken the better last quarter of an 18 page thread. whine all you want, you wont get anything to show for it except laughed at.
     
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  27. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,192
    Yeah. A lot of mods out there weren't done very well. In my opinion, the best ones still work. What I mean by "best" is that either the mod was either elegantly simple or well coded. Or both. It's really sad when a good Modder moves on, and I, for one, understand. I move on as well because there's always at least one good new mod a week to try. It's also great that those old abandoned mods get restored if it's at all possible (as I said, not every mod was done well to begin with).

    People that get married to a particular mod and get upset when it stops working probably have about 160 other games they're going to play anyway. They might uninstall SE if they need the room. Still, they have the game and, as gets said so very often here in these forums, the game is not complete yet. I don't know if they are SO pissed that they won't at least fire up the game again after the next update, as so many people have done in the past. By then there will probably be ten times more available mods similar to the one they liked, and they'll work better and stick around longer.

    Have to look at the big picture here;)
     
  28. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Ok, then there is probably language barrier as I thought contempt is something bad and I see nothing bad in asking for the reason someone wants to do something... or maybe it it cultural barrier? Is there something bad about asking question.
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, the plan of releasing game usually contains a part where it is being tested and most bugs are beind fixed before being released. So I expected it as something obvious that we will eventually get to it (I usually take notes about mentioned things to check them eventually). If that was not that obvious: "We will be working on it at some stage.",
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, don't know the actual reasons (this happened loooong before I joined Keen), but I would guess that it definitely didn't make anything easier. :D Especially as Havok is 32 bit and I am getting headache only from thinking about other problems. I do think it was to make playable area bigger, as 10km from origin... that were really small worlds.
    --- Automerge ---
    Well... those new voxels were taken from medieval... so there is possibility that even though they were made to support doubles, they probably never tested it purther away from origin, as they have only one planet close to origin. At least that is what I expect, It might be more things.
    --- Automerge ---
    Man, have you read that post I wrote? The one where I made those calculations about decimal points supported by double precision float? That it has 15 decimal points, that is 1 000 000 000 000 000 mm -> 1 bil. km?
    PS If you really want to play with words... do you consider "flying with a ship" as "playing"? Cause in that case you probably can do that, as you said earlier(that you can only be there, not mine, etc.). ;)
    --- Automerge ---
    Well... now, as you know, there will be multiplayer update, but what will come next... it is still not engraved into a stone. :D I am always trying to push as many ideas as possible. :D But I am not designer, nor in position to decide what will be in game, so I can only try.

    But these things would require rewriting lot of core game parts, that would damage lot of existing stuff... so it would require lot of time and work to integrate it... :/ (It is always not that easy and clean to implement thing when development is in so advanced stage... especially if it is so interconnected with other things that were never designed to be used in such way... it usually leaves a mess that later causes problems or slows down the implementation).

    I think everyone who has been programming will agree, that sometime when you are writing something, that has lot of features added later in life (especially things that were never expected to be there or that are using other stuff inside in completely insane way )... it can get messy :D


    [​IMG]
    --- Automerge ---
    Man, that's a brave statement, saying either something is not possible (from my experience when someone says something is not possible, he is usually wrong) or that we aren't capable of something. :D (But I must definitely admit that there are probably some things we are not capable... as you have proven to me, I am definitely not capable of understanding you.)
    --- Automerge ---
    I completely agree with you. I am also not ok with people suspecting something. It usually leads them to bad conclusions.

    Btw you could have also said something like "Sky is blue." or "Day has 24 hours.". It would have the same value. Of course it has bugs. That's the price of implementing things. It it was completely bug free, it would have been already released. (If there were new features to implement, that would bring new bugs, or would breake old stuff.)
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, depends on the definition of "understaffed". There are enough people with enough knowledge in all necessary fields to finish project, so I wouldn't say understaffed. But there is always room for improvement and for scaling up. (Knowledge, skills and experience can speed up only some things and only to some degree... sometime just having more manpower(with sufficient knowledge, skills and experience) is superior. )
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, I have written response to this, but I rather remain silent as it would be beating of a dead horse. But it is a really nice thing to think about... if unfinished thing can be called broken.
    --- Automerge ---
    Amen. Someone please get stone tablet and chisel... these words of wistom must be preserved for next generations! I don't think it could have been expressed in any better way. :D
    --- Automerge ---

    That's a really nice combo man .:)
    --- Automerge ---
    Yeah... thats exactly the reasom I am so against mods... I personally really dislike mods as it makes you dependant on someone, who can at any day at any time remove mod, stop updating it and so on. Also I hate having creations dependant on mods, so they are useless unless I hesign them for specific mod combination (I like my creations to be universal, to be able to play with them everywhere.)
    --- Automerge ---
    Have anyone else noticed that most of my posts start with "Well" or "Man"? Interesting....

    But wow, that post was way longer than I expected. :D But It was response to things after 2 days, so... (I spent most of the weekend playing Factorio... that game really has something to it, but I would rather have it in 3D space and way more complex. :D )
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  29. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,182
    I am also not a huge fan of mods because of those very same reasons. Funny thing: I am a modder. And when the game goes into release state I will probably pick my share of stable mods and include them in every game. Because I do not expect KSH will be focusing on actually including those things in the game. Don't get me wrong, this is still my favourite game and possibly will be for a long, long time.

    I do see that there have been huge improvements with the stability of the code, the resilience of the game itself and I am beyond hyped for the multiplayer update.

    But the game design of this game has always and will possibly always be lacking hardcore. It's supposed to be a sandbox title. And granted: I have done multiplayer battles, roleplaying, I have release lore-driven worlds. But here's the thing: I had to overcome the game to do that, I was not helped by it. I needed to use corridors for beds, rotor heads for tables, broken antennae for effects. I was not able to use the scenario editor because the part I understood kept crashing on me and the part I did not understand.. well - I've worked with multiple editors, starting with the aurora toolkit in NVN up to the elder scrolls creation kits and I always found some way to make them work - this one is too unintuitive for me.

    I want to be able to use the game itself, but it's so damn limited in what it can do. Don't get me wrong: I know that being able to smash things the way we can do in SE and all the other features the game brings are awesome. I'm not neccessarily asking for more things like aerodynamics or structural integrity or compound blocks. I am asking for an expansion of the already existing features. More blocks, more modules, more chainlinks in production, maybe some new ores. If this is a toolbox to create our own playstyle, give us some more tools :)
     
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  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,192
    This is a fundamental point that I don't believe the developers quite gets. This game currently provides you with all the blocks you need to build great looking ships and stations, as long as you don't try to go inside them. That's where the suspension of disbelief evaporates. We have asked for things such as beds and tables since the beginning. The developers response has always been, "Why do you need such things?" Hundreds of Modders understand, but no one at Keen does. Could be cause in Miner Wars you played the entire game inside a ship, as if the ship was your suit?
     
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