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Ship-mounted Flak Cannons

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by ZeroCore, Jul 5, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. ZeroCore Apprentice Engineer

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    Flak is essentially the turret, or ship-mounted, equivalent of a shotgun used to blast away at fast-flying enemy craft.

    Flak has been in use in combat since the first combat aircraft, and consists of a shell which, upon nearing the target or a timer set on a predetermined fuse, explodes to produce a large barrage of shrapnel which damages or destroys the craft.

    Another flak variant is literally just a shrapnel cannon that fires bits of metal at high velocity out of its muzzle. Its range is rather limited, but useful for taking down small, fast-moving craft.



    I've seen a few cannon suggestions in the mega-thread, but none like a flak unit. I figured it'd go well with this game for anti-fighter defense, and also, if one happens to be clever in how it's used, for clearing a minefield.
     
  2. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    Really just type "flak" into search and it will show you half of the post on this forum because literally everyone is talking about it.
     
  3. paswert Junior Engineer

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    Yeah, Space Engineers tech is around about equal to BSG tech, so Flak cannons for all!

    I also get a bit annoyed when people call them shotguns,
    doesn't really sound like a shotgun...
     
  4. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

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    Like gatling + rocket turrets don't hit even the fastest fighters well enough as it is?
     
  5. paswert Junior Engineer

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    Even I'm able to avoid turrets...

    Just flying in a corkscrew makes you practically unhittable from range.
     
  6. Krirub Trainee Engineer

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    Yes you can avoid turrets easily if you stay far away from them (600m+) but you can't really do anything if you stay away from them because they will destroy your rockets and gatling guns do no damage.
    What i'm trying to say is if you can avoid the turrets you can't attack the enemy base or big ship.
    And if you get closer the rocket launcher turrets will oneshot you instantly, no matter how you fly.
     
  7. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    You won't like flak guns when you get them... it will be solar panels V2...
     
  8. paswert Junior Engineer

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    How are flak guns like solar panels?

    As long as they damage things and look cool that's all I need.
     
  9. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    Well, if you dig up WWII statistics; where millions upon millions of flak shells were used for air defense, you will find that if you fire 100 flak shells statistically speaking 0 of them are likely to hit. Granted, this is at somewhat long range (usually 10-15km up) and there may be visual obstructions between the gun and target, but only a fool would ignore the problem that flak guns have; they are extremely inaccurate and difficult to bring to bear on fast-moving targets.

    Ultimately what they had to start doing was just putting flak batteries together in groups of hundreds or more so that when firing at a massive bomber formation they might score 1 or 2 hits. But this is very spotty coverage at best. What they found is that once the fighters are gone the bombers always got through despite the flak guns.
     
  10. paswert Junior Engineer

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    756
    When you consider that this is a game and that turrets only have a range of 800 meters Flak guns would be a much better idea than first thought, also like real Flak guns they could have other ammo for different uses.
     
  11. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    When you dig up WW statistic you will all times find people who was perfect marksman and did win battles agains many more enemys. Like one Australian who did capture over 100 enemys alone ( becose he alone did shot over 20 and rest get fear in WWI ) , or WWII one AA Flak position with czech crew on island Malte shoot down alone over 27 airplanes :D +meybe some never did get back on airport with damages so they was not confirmed like shoot downs or some one else hit them... you can find storys like this all time...
     
  12. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    But at close range you are presented with an even greater challenge. Then the tracking radians the gun needs to traverse become exponentially larger. Artillery guns traverse very slowly and have to be calibrated every time they stop for the best accuracy; which is why at close range they realized that AA machine guns and autocannons are better than flak.
     
  13. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    All 20mm+ AA cannons have set delay on shells so they explode near target... so its basicaly modern flak + on end of moder AA cannons barell is coil witch send information to shell when to explode ( delay is set when shell is shoot, it dont send information all time ). Check when they shoot at night on ened of video its beter to see all shells explode
    Time 1:02.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cgpQBZF2sZQ
     
  14. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

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    Gunnery Chief: This, recruits, is a *2 kilo Flak Shell which, upon nearing the target, explodes to produce a large barrage of shrapnel in all directions which destroys the target. This is the equivalent of a shotgun used to blast away at fast-flying enemy craft. The Razor Sharp bits of metal will shred any armor it touches!*
    That means Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-b*tch in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton's First Law?
    Serviceman Burnside: Sir! A object in motion stays in motion, sir!
    Gunnery Chief: No credit for partial answers, maggot!
    Serviceman Burnside: Sir! Unless acted on by an outside force, sir!
    Gunnery Chief: D*mn straight! I dare to assume you ignorant jackasses know that space is empty. Once *this Husk of metal blows up, that metal shrapnel keeps going till they hit something.
    That can be a ship, or the planet behind that ship. They might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in ten thousand years.
    If you pull the trigger on this, you're ruining someone's day, somewhere and sometime.
    That is why you check your d*mn targets! That is why you wait for the computer to give you a d*mn firing solution! That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it!" This is a weapon of mass destruction.
    You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!
    Serviceman Chung: Sir, yes sir!

    (* - Quote has been edited for in thread context)
     
  15. btroycraft Apprentice Engineer

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    Quoting WWII statistics is entirely non-constructive. Everything from that era was unguided and entirely inaccurate, so of course they never hit anything.

    We've made overwhelming improvements in the last 70 years; we went from carpet bombing hundreds of acres at a time to dropping a laser guided munition in a 10 sq m area.

    Flak artillery combined with modern tracking and guidance would easily hit small, fast-moving targets from long ranges. The only reason we don't use them is because guided missiles are better.
     
  16. 1 of 1 Trainee Engineer

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    I thought the shells of modern AA exploded to self destruct the round so it wouldn't reign fire and brimestone on innocent squishes down range? Because how can you accurately set a detonation range for a target you don't know anything about traveling at 500 or more mph/kts at a whole slew of flight tracks relative to the gun?
     
  17. DMMWolf Apprentice Engineer

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    Did you not watch the Phalanx video? by definition those rounds are flak. How we fire it has just changed.

    @1 of 1
    Laser Range finding and Analytical Algorithms sir
     
  18. ZeroCore Apprentice Engineer

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    Please note I also said:

    "Another flak variant is literally just a shrapnel cannon that fires bits of metal at high velocity out of its muzzle."

    So it could more or less function like a rather large shotgun. I have heard this method referred to more or less as a flak cannon; it detonates a grenade-like explosive in its chamber and the resulting shrapnel flies forward out of the barrel.



    A very good point, to all of those who keep going on about flak's inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

    More modern flak systems could use a targeting computer to get around this sort of thing, and by 2077 could be very, VERY, effective.

    Also, there's another method; micro flak cannons on small fighter craft in place of those very ammo-thirsty machine gun turrets as a means of taking down other fighters.

    Remember, we are talking about far, far off into the future. Who knows what will be possible (perhaps the devs are wrong and there would be something like FTL interstellar travel and energy shields and whatnot, not to mention superbly better weapons).
     
  19. Jannik2099 Apprentice Engineer

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    following star trek canonic, we will get warp drives in 30 years.

    Back to topic, i would love to see flak cannons.
    But also shrapnell-cannons for fighters. Imagine This:
    ---> ---->
    Those are 2 fighters, they both fly straigth, maybe because the front fighter hasnt noted the enemy behind him
    the enemy behind him needs to quickly take out the fighter so it has no time to react. gatling guns are way too slow and rockets are expensive
    So he shoots shrapnel projectiles which will detonate 15 m before impact with target and spread in a 35° cone. This way, he will hit nearly all engines of the enemy and make him a sitting duck
     
  20. Wargasm Trainee Engineer

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    flak cannons would have to be built in with some major disadvantages to keep them from being abused (flak is an indirect fire defensive weapon, not an offense weapon) Namely, weight, size, ammo cost/production. I'd be more in favor of various caliber cannons/guns. While having a slow rof, lobbing big slow expensive shells the size of a thruster at people would be far more entertaining... imagine something 1x4 large blocks big smashing into someone's hull at 200-300ms ;P
     
  21. 1 of 1 Trainee Engineer

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    So how do they adjust the fuses on the fly for the rounds while it's firing off a pre-filled belt at what I assume is some where around 6 rounds a second?

    I really those are on a timed self destruct fuse. It prevents from happening in Honolulu during the attack on Pearl Harbour. The rounds have mine fuses that detonate on contact, or the round self destructed after a certain time/distance of travel.

    The old flak barrages that used specific fuses to detonate near aircraft was for engaging targets fired to fly a straight line and hold a specific altitude on their way to target. In this case, radar, interceptor reports and other intel would allow for flak batteries to set a specific fuse settings to explode their shells within a pre-defined kill box.

    Now maybe modern guns can do all that dynamically on the fly, but I'm not sure that's what I saw in that video.
     
  22. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    Slug guns are the shotgun equivalent, and are used for the same purpose of swatting light fast fighters.
    Both those and Area Denial flak guns would be rad.

    I've also requested large caliber shotguns for Small Ships before.

    You can't "lob" anything in zero gravity.
     
  23. Wargasm Trainee Engineer

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    You can't "lob" anything in zero gravity.[/QUOTE]
    Lob as in Shoot... jeez, don't be so finicky
     
  24. Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    I put this video to other thread but perhaps most of people missed it. So I think this is some kind of so called flak gun turret. You can click to 1:30 and see shooting and then flashes on sky. They must be timed but I don't know how dynamically you can adjust the timer. But if the target is at closer range it's easier to do direct hits and do better damage than just with shrapnells so perhaps the real time timer setting is not needed. Well and if the target is too close it's too late anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxPA-6Tb2es

    edit. Some data: turret is british, tank part is polish and guns are swiss and the whole vehicle is finnish.
     
  25. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    I will send older anti-aircraft weapons where is explained how coils on weapon barell works to time shell explosion + your called shotgun shells with limited spread of bullets in one direction TIME 3:50 for coil lesson and targeting system.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0oHvqIUEmY&feature=player_detailpage

    Meybe best way is include in game more types of ammo then diferent types of cannons :thumb: when you see big-ship load armour pearcing ammo, lot of small space ships load flak ammo :rof:
     
  26. ZeroCore Apprentice Engineer

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    Originally, this was a problem with flak shells; the fuse had to be pre-set to a certain altitude by the gun crew.

    However, they invented a device called the proximity fuse. The proximity fuse contained a radio-wave emitter which emitted a radio wave field. The radio wave field's reverberations would change based around how close an object was to it.

    As wikipedia puts it:

    "The device described in World War II patent <sup id="cite_ref-Kyle.2C_1950_17-0" class="reference"></sup>works as follows: The shell contains a micro-transmitter which uses the shell body as an antenna and emits a continuous wave of roughly 180–220 MHz. As the shell approaches a reflecting object, an interference pattern is created. This pattern changes with shrinking distance: every half wavelength in distance (a half wavelength at this frequency is about 0.7 meters), the transmitter is in or out of resonance. This causes a small oscillation of the radiated power and consequently the oscillator supply current of about 200–800 Hz, the Doppler frequency. This signal is sent through a band pass filter, amplified, and triggers the detonation when it exceeds a given amplitude."

    Original Source: Patent US 3152547 US, Kyle, John W, "Radio Proximity Fuze", issued 1950-12-04.

    In short; the shell sends out a radio wave. The radio wave bounces back off a target and changes its vibrations as the target gets close. When the reverberations reach a certain point, it ignites the warhead.
     
  27. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930


    This one has a projectile with radar in it.
     
  28. 1 of 1 Trainee Engineer

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    Oh snap! Learn something new everyday...thats why i come here.
     
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