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Should SE ever become more combat focused?

Discussion in 'General' started by ChromeCastle, Feb 23, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. ChromeCastle Trainee Engineer

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    I've found myself spending a lot of time looking over the replies to the thread that discusses the benefits and drawbacks of wearing the space suit if/when oxygen is implemented in the game (Thread can be found here: http://forums.keenswh.com/post/advantages-that-players-without-helmets-or-suits-would-have-7302499?&trail=15). At first, I wasn't too sure about the idea of having such drastic changes. I shared the sentiment the devs had that the game should not focus on the player's body, but rather mostly the engineering aspect of the game.

    However, the more I thought about it, the more I could justify it given one thing: that this game would become more than just an engineering game. Before you grab your pitch-forks and light your torches, of course I mean in the long run—when the engineering part of this game is fully fleshed out and with minimal bugs. Whatever SE expands into would also have to make sense. It shouldn't be a rhythm game, for example.

    The first and most obvious aspect that ought to be expanded upon I feel is the combat system. Space suit/no-Space suit limitations and advantages could add a lot to combat. Say, those with the suit are slower, but can carry more ammo. Those without the suit are more agile, use different guns, etc. There could even be different suits that would end up being a sort of class system. This could be useful for engineering as well.

    Here are some basic examples that you would find in your typical shooter:
    • Assault
    • Recon
    • Medic
    • Spy
    Likewise for the engineering portion of the game separate suits could be enabled for different tasks.
     
  2. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    2,095
    I'd say expand the combat system. But don't turn this into a shooter. I'd prefer it honestly if we had more things to make weapons to work with and the ability to construct weapons on our own, either by modifying existing ones to suit specific needs, or being able to build new weaponry from the ground up.

    The focus should remain on engineering, but the scope should be expanded to include the engineering of weapons through means that aren't insanely resource intensive or incredibly cheesy. An example of the former is making torpedoes on large ships which take massive amounts of parts in the form of reactors and thrusters. An example of the latter is using grav gens to launch rocks at people. There should be a way for building our own, more traditional guns that DON'T blow up the barrel after less than a dozen shots.
     
  3. Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    3,028
    Expand into other areas i voted

    and i voted this way in hopes it included all that was to offer in the poll and then some.

    Future it is set in, it should be evolving imho.

    there are a lot of games out there that tend to have a little bit of everything i want in a game but none with everything in a single game and i would like SE to be the ONE game with a little bit if everything, may not be able to re-invent the wheel as they say but it can sure be improved upon.

    there are many things i see happening in this game that i would want in ONE game and not several; someday someone is going to create the GO TO game and i would like SE to be the pioneer in this endeavor.
     
  4. ChromeCastle Trainee Engineer

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    When I first got the idea of this thread my mind wandered to games like Star Citizen, since that game aims to do so much. SE doesn't have to do nearly as much as a game like Star Citizen aims to do. However, it would be nice to have a world with enough complexity that there are plenty of things to do and see. I guess you could say that's the point of this thread.

    The exploration update was definitely a step in the right direction. Campaigns and AI will also be.
     
  5. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

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    Combat is another type of engineering, really.

    The more I think about advantages of not having a suit and oxygen environments and depressurization, the more I think "yeah, I'm never taking this suit off, I don't care how bad it smells in here".
     
  6. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    1,182
    Planets, green environments, more survival challenges, like food and water, nothing lives without water, we have no water in the game, very odd.
    Missions to do from undestroyable shops located in the maps area somewhere, where trade can be done, enemies, from single gorilla tactics to the KEEN Federation ,faction warfare. Bring on some serious AI enemies.
     
  7. Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    3,028
    aye when i saw this thread i did the same but also:

    EVE

    Entropia Universe

    No Mans' Sky

    i should really buy that 30$ ship in Star Citizen but i fear my PC won't handle the game
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2015
  8. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    As much as I like combat, and talking about combat, and building weapons for combat that doesn't seem to happen because I can't find a PVP venue I like....I'd like to see the survival aspect of the game fleshed out before the combat is fleshed out.

    Right now survival consists of merely getting past the tipping point of resource and ship asset scarcity. Once you build a big enough miner and a nasty enough fighter there is really no impediment to your survival, merely to your expansion. You can survive basically indefinitely with a medical room, a reactor and a huge stockpile of Uranium ingots. And when push comes to shove that's not all that hard to come by once you get your first couple of ships built.

    The only real threat mechanism is meteors and they don't really make it harder to survive, they just get you killed more, wreck your stuff and limit your ability to expand. But they can't touch a well designed survival base on the dark side of a big asteroid and so don't really factor into the bottom line.

    I think one simple way to make surviving more work is expanding the infrastructure and resource requirements to do so. Like, require organic materials (C-N-H-O) to produce more clones and to maintain the clone you're currently using (I'm working under the assumption you're a clone, and the medical facility has a bunch of cloning tanks because that's what it looks like to me).

    Fleshing out combat and adding hostile AI is another way to make surviving harder, without relying on meteor cheese. Though, so that angle is something to consider. But I'd rather they focus on making PVE combat survival relevant, rather than adding classes and building weapons. To me, making recipies from components isn't really engineering - the engineering comes when you put a weapon together based on blocks.
     
  9. mcwurth Apprentice Engineer

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    fighting in space seems so futile. there is enough...well... space for all humans? (granted obviously there are some other races in a game, but we are aiming for realism??)
     
  10. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    Space isn't the issue. It's the relatively scarce resources in the void that are important and what people fight over.
     
  11. mcwurth Apprentice Engineer

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    sure sure, but going of on realism... (again so sorry) there should be resources enough in space. (which in real life there are) it is just a matter of resources to get to those resources (and mine and refine these resources), so eventually the war will be about who got the biggest guns/miners.... (meh I just want to build yall can fight)

    I am not sure where i heard/read this but i think it was tyson who said that war in space is not "allowed" for humans?? not sure I will try and ask him on twitter haha (if he ever answers)
     
  12. Shadowcalen1 Apprentice Engineer

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    135
    I play mostly in singleplayer survival, and what I would like to see is a more dynamic setting for the game, which would give you more to do. What I think would best fit this is dynamic AI factions that interact on you based on how you interact with them. Next is a more flushed out ship combat system, which has more weapons, and stealth systems, for a more TF2 style combat. (you make your ship to fight how you like to fight). After that comes a more customizable player combat system, in which you can customize your suit, and a greater selection of weapons.
     
  13. Nacon Junior Engineer

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    591
    I just want to say... what's the name of this game?

    "Space ENGINEERS"

    Yeah... anyway. There are still few more things we need in engineering aspect, I'm not even looking forward to combat or anything else. As far I'm aware, this isn't Star Citizen.
     
  14. Xentor Junior Engineer

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    869
    Dunno about "allowed", but it'd be incredibly stupid. Putting too much debris in orbit could make outer space completely inaccessible for generations. See that movie "Gravity"? Bad movie, blown way out of proportion, but same basic concept.
     
  15. inventor200 Apprentice Engineer

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    446
    Well, seeing as we're confined to a single solar system (no warp, FTL, etc), then there's still resource scarcity in SE as a lore universe. Our solar system is not infinite at all.

    (I never understood people who think we would ever have access to other stars in this game. Even at near-C, it takes soooooo long to get to an adjacent star. Takes a minute or so at near-C to reach the extents of our solar system. Not so good for gameplay. This isn't Star Trek; it's space grunge. Mini-rant over. :woot:

    But yeah, galactic travel would essentially remove scarcity and conflict.)

    In game, if an asteroid is known to have a scarce resource, then you bet some will fight for it.
     
  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Space based nuclear weapons are banned by convention, but warfare is otherwise merely subject to the same conventions that govern land warfare.

    There are obviously all sorts of legal aspects unique to fighting in space, and it's something that has gotten much more attention from military policy lately.

    I largely agree with your statement though, with the size of the "unlimited" world, and the amount of resources compared to a player's needs, there is really no reason to fight unless you want to. Indeed if players were seeded evenly spaced, they'd never even knew they existed, nevermind come into conflict.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2015
  17. ChromeCastle Trainee Engineer

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    43
    Which is why I specifically stated that this wouldn't come into play until it's well developed. I haven't forgotten the name of the game. In fact I believe it should always be the quintessential aspect of the game.

    You don't have to be part of combat or anything else. If you want to, as always, you can just engineer. The point of this thread is providing variety only if the player wants it.
     
  18. Maegil Senior Engineer

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    1,633
    Before you guys get on TF2-style combat, please let me use my Saitek X52 joystick on what we already have...

    Anyway; SE is a sandbox builder first and foremost, but a sandbox nonetheless. I would like to see not only improved combat, but AIs of all sorts forming a lively working universe; frontier trading, mining, piracy (including patrolling military ships and anti-piracy raiding), built-up civilized areas up to sprawling planetary cities (including SWAT response for troublemakers), missions, factions... yes, I'm talking about AIs - regretfully PVP tends to be about, or devolve into, tit for tat take thats and outright griefing, and that's really not my thing.
     
  19. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    That's my feeling exactly, although reading through some of the RP based PVP stuff people are doing I think PVP can be pretty cool if it's structured, rather than in the context of anarchistic survival - which I've tried a little and devolves as you described, which isn't fun for me personally.

    My big issue right now is that SE needs emergent gameplay to push your desire to build things. The basic PVE/survival game is pretty sparse for that right now. Basic game design requires you to have:

    -Some sort of base/ship that refines ores, and makes components and lets you dock things to it.

    -A building ship/ship printer.

    -A salvage ship/grinding wall.

    -A couple of different form factor miners.

    -A meteor defense thing (if that's your cup of tea) to cover light-side assets.

    -A tug.

    -A solid fighter design to capture cargo ships.

    So really you can get by with 10 or less craft if you combine roles into one grid (your miner can also do refining, etc).

    After that it's all basically down to self-motivation of building for the sake of making better/cooler/prettier ships.
     
  20. bobisdead123 Trainee Engineer

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    31
    I agree; combat needs to be developed and expanded upon. I'm not saying they should add tons of ore guns (although a few would be nice) but rather some more ways to engineer weapons (along with maybe just a couple new guns? :D). In realize many of people bought the game for the engineering and building; but I bought the game for two reasons: It looked cool, and the combat looked awesome. As of right now; I like the combat already; although it could be improved so much. Some of my ideas to improve the combat aren't actually related to combat at all - at least directly anyways...

    When I got SE the first thing I played was survival. Even though I was a noob; with the help of a friend we soon conquered our world. Once we had a decent mining operation up the rest was pointless. We had avoided the only threat (running out of uranium --> losing power). Meteors were annoying but in no way a big deal. The survival lacks so many core elements its not even a real survival mode. Just creative with limited resources and death. Some key concepts NEED to be added into survival;

    Water. Without water everything dies. As of right now; our astronauts have the ability to produce water magically. Adding a water resource to the game would be a massive boost for survival. Not only would players have to worry about uranium, they would also need to gather water from asteroids. They would then need top refine the ice into drinkable water so they could drink it. (Possibly stored in their suit and is consumed over time?). Water also leads into my next idea; food.

    Food would be another massive boost to survival. Food would be produced in greenhouses or in hydroponic tables or something like. And would require water to grow them.

    How would this add to combat you ask? Think about it.. if players require food and water; whats the best target. Their food and water production. Destroying that would set them back and force them to repair it ASAP.

    Also; I think they should add lasers.
     
  21. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    The combat clearly goes very well together with the engineering part. The combat requires designing ships or even new weapons that gives you the upper hand in battle and secures the victory for you.
     
  22. ChromeCastle Trainee Engineer

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    I'd very much love to see this. Implemented right, there would always be something new to do. There could even be difficulty settings so that one would be pressured to improve ship design in order to finish more missions.

    Yeah, this is usually true. It's pretty much the case unless two organized factions agree to do a war, and that's very rare.
     
  23. kristakis Junior Engineer

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    607
    I'd rather this game focus more on creativity and engineering and another combat-focused game be created instead. Space Fighters or Combat Engineers or something where you don't need to build refineries and assemblers but have multiple weapon options instead - artillery, lasers, EMP, nukes etc
     
  24. Galaxian Apprentice Engineer

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    191
    As is, I'd rather the complex and expensive creations we have now remain the top tier of weaponry - the most effort getting the biggest punch. Expansion of combat is welcome since vanilla only has gatlings and rockets, but it'd probably have to be very carefully balanced. IMO an example would be the CSD armaments, but then again there's probably a lot of opinions.
     
  25. ben2150 Trainee Engineer

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    78
    While engineering is great, and an integral part of the game. I also think that combat should not be completely ignored. Ok, I know we have a machinegun, Gatling, and missile weapons. Even so, that just doesn't seem very fleshed out. I am not asking for a full on FPS experience, just a reasonable array of vanilla weapons.

    For our characters, I would like to see some variants of the following:
    Machine gun (Heavy/slow speed/high damage)
    Sub machine gun
    Assault rifle
    Pistol
    Rocket launcher
    Grenades (fragmentation and flash bang)

    Different variants and modifications for our space suits or body armor.
    Flight suit (lighter and more maneuverable)
    Current

    Assault suit (Heavier, much less maneuverable, higher armor)
    Body armor (provides increased armor with a little less maneuverability)

    Ships need weapons that have varied uses to provide some strategy to what is added to a ship.
    Rail or heavy cannon (slow firing, high damage, longer distance)
    Laser (low penetration, medium distance, unlimited ammo, consumes massive amounts of energy when fired)
    Auto-cannons (primarily for small ships, medium fire speed, fairly good damage)
    Missile types:
    EMP (Slower, temporarily knocks out electronics short distance)
    HE (High damage, slower, short distance)
    Current (Medium speed, range, and damage)

    I know this is fairly general, but you get the idea. I want to engineer a ship with more than hull integrity in mind. I want weapons and ammo to provide some extra consideration when engineering my ship. Instead of simply plopping on missile launchers and Gatling cannons alone. You can see how some of those weapons would lend themselves to different roles. It would add so much more for those who enjoy being space pirates, or simply enjoy combat. It would also provide another way for players to progress.
     
  26. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    I chose "expand combat" and "other", much for the same reasons that Wizlawz (p.1) listed.

    On the topic of combat, the only thing I really don't care about is the addition of various weapons for the engineer. I think the game will naturally stay centered in ship combat, and I don't think giving engineers different guns is going to change anything.

    I also think that we need a wider selection of simple weaponry for ships. Current selection is just extremely limited.

    Most of my support goes to the addition of different blocks and machinery that can do things that can't really be done yet. For example: http://forums.keenswh.com/post/shockwave-bombs-7199137?. This block could be used similar to a gunpowder charge, or even just as a one-use decoupler. People could make actual block-based cannons, and I think that fulfills both the combat and engineering aspects of the game. I tend to concentrate on building my ideas, rather than actually playing survival, so additions like that are the most valuable to me.
     
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