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Space Engineers - The Biggest MMO of All Time

Discussion in 'General' started by HR, Oct 25, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677
    All the bold text, makes no sense at all after the context of my post. I don't even...
    I can write plugins and yes they are supported. Attacking my integrity from a position of ignorance...hmm

    If you think setting a common limit to all factions is an abuse of power, you're insane. I never said "oh yeah, and I'd exempt my admin faction from this HAHA lol fuck you" which is apparently all you understood from my post if you think I'd be abusive. If you read what I said carefully, it's called balance.
    It's a game and games have rules, I'm not making an amendment to the constitution...there is nothing "limiting freedom" here. HUGE strawman arguments going on here.

    When servers weren't completely broken, I'll have you know "The Imperium" was pretty popular and active with 20+ people on usually, before the general population of Space Engineers tanked. I never banned anyone, didn't have to, and all I did all day when I was home from work and school was help people...on a server I owned...paid for with my hard cash...and never once did I give an unfair advantage to anybody.

    But sure...I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about...

    @DDP-158 What magical workaround are you referencing that would prevent separate un-allied factions from shooting each other in close proximity? Goonswarm at the end of the day, needs to be able to attack en mass. It's not gonna happen. Economic alliance isn't the problem, it's their military swarm. At the LEAST, it makes it so if they were to attack a single base, they would have to do it in waves to avoid killing each other which would severely limit their capacity against a defensive force. Besides that, goonswarm as an organization is completely useless without the rigid gameplay ruleset that EVE provides. Space Engineers is WAY harder to do stuff on that scale.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  2. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Yes it could, but I figured since everyone was in here making bullet points while ignoring others arguments I thought I would throw one in as well with what I've been reading.
     
  3. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Yeah. Anybody who doesn't understand why a group like Goon would be nigh-unstoppable in a sandbox environment like Space Engineers doesn't understand what makes Goon effective. As I mentioned before, even limiting faction size wouldn't help, because SomethingAwful's core strength is their ability to organize and coordinate; if anything, limiting faction size would help them and hurt everyone else, because their communication network would let them circumnavigate and minimize the impact of smaller factions in a way other groups couldn't.

    Yeah, pretty much. If it were a Keen-run service (which is bad), admins would have to be neutral and unbiased lest they tank the entire project and hurt the company. If its a community thing, well, they're free to have fun, but community admins are going to be less professional in the end and more prone to corruption, as shown by a few people in this thread.

    I'm still blown away someone would flat-out admit that they're willing to manufacture reasons and trick admins or moderators into banning users that they personally disagree with for some reason. What a scumball.
     
  4. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Yep, they are a powerhouse corp that has been in eve for 10+ years. You have to have illusions of grandeur to think a few missiles and a little maneuvering is going to bring them down.
    And we're just talking about the main host. They have I believe 8 smaller corps orbiting them.

    And by smaller I mean 1000+ each with gsw having over 5k
     
  5. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Pfff, yeah, that "I'll just secretly manufacture OP missiles and use them at them when they're at their weakest" comment was comedy gold. Like, what made them think that Goonswarm wouldn't have found a good design for OP missiles? What made them think that their ability to manufacture OP missiles would in any way exceed Goonswarm's?

    EDIT: Yet another reason that occurs as to why limiting faction size wouldn't stop Goonswarm is that, unless the "MMO mode" (in whatever form it took) prevented any sort of trade or noncombat interaction between factions... it doesn't matter how small you limit them to being, a large organized group like the Goons would find a way to cooperate.
     
  6. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    First off, I didn't say you couldn't write them, all I said was someone had to. I could personally model 90% of models for mods I want, however I don't have that kind of time on my hands, if you took that as a personal attack I'm sorry but that seems rather insecure. Moving on.

    Any time you as an admin impose rules that are not from a plugin or server rules it's limiting some freedoms. And again, I never said you would give allied factions an edge, just handouts to the losers like we do in real life... But my point still stands, even with faction limits you still have the issue of just having groups of factions.

    Just out of curiosity are those 20 people you know? Or just a bunch of randoms? Also in a small server like that, you don't usually find people being jerks because they can't get away with it. Multiply that number by 100 and see if you have to still not ban people.

    Evidently not, you seem to be rather insecure about your abilities, and take literally everything as a personal attack when they're not.
     
  7. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    280
    More like Goons crying on the forums because they were LOSING there space. This happened many times in the past, just as victory was in sight for the people against the CFC, a magical patch would come and nerf the opposition (Super cap Nerf/Titan Nerf/Jump Fatigue). Goons are not good at EvE, only thing they are good at is getting a massive amount of players together in crappy ships and just...well...swarm you. The alliances that were against them cannot fight those numbers, so if you cannot meet them in numbers, then you get better quality ships. They come at you in hundreds of cruisers, you fight back in Battleships and Capitals, your outnumbered but not outgunned. However goons have lost to that very tactic over and over again, and have had it repeatedly nerfed.
    Having been a part of those invasions into CFC space, only to see the vary ship I worked my ass off to fly be turned into a flying worthless hunk because Goons were losing.
    Never forget what the Goon MO is when they come to a game. There objective is to ruin your game.

    I have been fighting against goons for many years over the course of my EvE career. Currently should I return to the game, I would have 9 accounts to turn back on.......ya 9.
     
  8. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

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    381
    That's great. Good for you?

    Still, SE isn't EvE and there won't be any evil Goons to come stomp on your space sand castle. Nor it will be an MMO that would allow such things to happen, amirite? :p
     
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  9. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    280
    Such things would happen if SEMMO is done right. However the great and wonderful part about this game over EvE, you are not locked to just XX ships or a ship type. You can find resources anywhere you want, there is tons of space to go hide in a corner and build your own fleet how you see fit. With mods you can even control a while fleet by yourself and even mass jump it to a location!
     
  10. Lrj52 Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Well then, seems this conversation has become a lot more stable from when I stopped posting, kudos to everyone for putting your personal opinions to the side for a bit to discuss it. :101:
     
  11. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Like I said, the opposition would be on the forums crying about them. The nerf ships to help goons was my favorite part.
     
  12. Kephyr Apprentice Engineer

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    193
    I'm losing interest in arguing whether an SE MMO is a good idea or not. Some people just aren't into it, and that is ok. But for those who are, (@Aracus, @PhoenixTheSage, @chemicalscum, @a2457, and anybody else) and are interested in discussing what would make an SE MMO / Megaserver work (if it was possible), I invite you to continue this discussion in this thread: How would you make an SE Megaserver work? Let's hope we'll manage to stay away from a nonsensical argument this time.
     
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  13. Aracus Senior Engineer

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    Are unconstructive haters forbidden in that other thread?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Kephyr Apprentice Engineer

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    The haters themselves aren't, but hate is. We don't discriminate :)
     
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  15. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    There absolutely would be, and Space Engineers translated into an MMO would be even more conducive to Goonswarm behaviour than EVE because there isn't any regulation on ships and resources are finite.

    I'm not sure why you think Goon couldn't Goonswarm in Space Engineers given a high enough player cap on a massive server.
     
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  16. Spets Master Engineer

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    some day... in Space Engineers...

     
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  17. Aracus Senior Engineer

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    That would be so awesome, on one hand, horrible that so many players feel they have to get into conflict, on the other, mindblowingly awesome to partake in and a battle that would go down in gaming history.
     
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  18. Captaindan Apprentice Engineer

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    172
    Me as a big Star Wars fan dreaming about this! :D
    To fly a little Fighter who is nothing in a big battle! <3



    Even with the old Microblocks mod some kind of this Buzzdroids would be possible. (just a Landinggear with Grinder on it. (but the Microblocks are dead :()
     
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  19. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Not that small, but compact grinder drones are A Thing people have worked out to scrap ships with.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. HR Trainee Engineer

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    39
    Ive seen hundreds of videos with people who create ships that use the handful of weapons in the game, currently, to make hundreds of different ships to battle each other with...
     
  21. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    Well, regardless of when you wanted it done, now or in the future, it seems some of us feels that it's a waste of time and effort on the devs part. So my point is still valid.

    If griefers will be an issue in mmo, it should be talked about, we don't live in lala land where everything is sunshine, sparkles and rainbows. I realize regardless there we be griefers, but the more players you add to the mix the harder it is to control, like pouring gas on a fire then wondering why it won't go out.
    See point aswell

    But when my development of single and multiplayer is slowed because of it, it's no longer not affecting me.

    Without fundamentally changing the way the game works this issue cannot be easily solved by dismissing it.

    This again will likely affect single and multiplayer, so some people don't want it.

    See the combat balance thread, like 10 pages of complaining about death cubes

    And I disagree, someone who favours defence over offence can be equally "successful" depending on what you're trying to do. I may favour running away to standing my ground, so different builds yield different results.

    Because games that were originally designed to be a mmo have the infrastructure in place way ahead of time, and have a great deal of automation in place to deal with day to day rabble, which again takes a huge amount of time to set up and tweak.
    No it isn't, but it really should be...
    In time being the key word there

    My responses are about as well thought out as this idea is. So I'll leave it at that.
     
  22. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,188
    So once again I had to stop reading and comment. If I say something here that was already addressed rest assured I will read it shortly.

    Goonswarm sounds scarey. It sounds like they have effectively developed a strategy to make any server unplayable. It sounds as if they have organized and thought it through. It appears the only solution is not to play. That's too bad because I really liked playing SE and I'm even working on my own server to host a game. I guess now I'll have to do something else with that hardware. Thank you KSH for a lovely time. Too bad it will never be more than a single player game cause Goonswarm.

    Or... we could stop being pussies and take these guys on. Seriously, their basic strategy is numbers. They are one big group picking apart individuals and much smaller groups. They saw the advantage of numbers, yet no one else has. Sun Tzu spins in his grave.

    All I can say for now is that I have read The Art of War several times. This crap will not happen on my server.
     
  23. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Sorry, no.

    Goonswarm's main advantage isn't numbers, its how they mobilize those numbers: they have excellent organization and communication channels. They can afford to have players online 24/7 and to bring in reserves in an emergency, and they have the connections among themselves to do so.

    Also, implying Space Engineers will never be more than a singleplayer game because of Goonswarm-type behaviour is disingenuous; multiplayer can work fine, but the bigger a world you put online and the more players you put support for, the easier implementing a Goonswarm becomes (and the more attractive a target the game becomes for them). A large server with thousands of players, official or not, would be a prime target for Goons.
     
  24. Aracus Senior Engineer

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    Hopefully the Goons are quite busy with EVE, can we get back to SE now?
     
  25. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Goons play all sorts of games (I actually encountered them, along with BoB, long before I knew about EVE, playing a simple browser game called AstroEmpires). Pretending they don't doesn't change that fact, and if you're going to discuss ideas about balancing massive Space Engineers servers, you ought to discuss how Goonswarm behaviour would impact it.
     
  26. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,188
    Still calling BS. If they didn't have numbers it wouldn't really matter how well they're mobilized. My main point is why is it that only the baddies can pull something off like this? Are the people that don't like Goonswarm too timid to form a similar organization?

    The simple truth is that what Goonswarm is doing is easy. You essentially have a vast number of people with no skill, no imagination, low self-esteem, and a computer. They are no good at EVE and that frustrates them. Their conclusion? "If I can't play, nobody can." You get a small inner core that may actually know what they're doing, and the rest is just recruiting all the assholes. There is no shortage of people that would rather be part of a group, good or bad. Thing is, bad people that want to be part of a bad group don't ever have to show any ingenuity or proficiency or even brains. They only matter to the leadership because they're expendable. This is the core mentality behind every street gang. Be part of the gang and you are instantly somebody. Whatever the gang accomplishes gives you individual bragging rights. When the group does something, all you have to do is be there. Organized my ass.

    Not creating something anything like an MMO cause Goonswarm is just pussy talk. This crap will not happen on my server. Sun Tzu talks, I listen.

    Word.
     
  27. RustyXXL Apprentice Engineer

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    124
    Easy Answer: Motivation
    It's easy to get a lot of people to destroy, but it's much harder to get people to defend. At least half of the players affected by this would have left the game before the mobilizing even begins, because they just want to have fun and don't want to mess with such things, which leaves the "defenders" at even more of a disadvantage. Then you have to gather and organize whatever is left. Someone has to "rise" to collect them and organize them and you'll most likely first end up with 20 smalle factions each trying the same thing but not wanting to give up the lead, while still players are leaving the game, because things get worse and worse. the time it takes to form a reliable defend line, which is online 24/7 in such a case is simply to long, while they already have done that before.
     
  28. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Mm, sure. I'll bet you've got a whole Navy SEAL spiel too.

    You're not as badass as you think you are, and Goonswarm isn't as stupid as you think they are.
     
  29. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    There's a section on the somethingawful forums for mmo's. They specifically seek out games where they can cause mischief and mayhem. For example, here they are as star fleet dental:



    That video created a 100+ thread naught of angry Trekkies demanding that all goons be banned from the game. Of course it didn't happen because they technically didn't violate any rules. The devs simply changed certain mechanics. In a sense this means that not all they do is bad as they are good at finding holes that need to be patched.

    But if you would like a big server mmo of SE you can be sure they will be here.

    Ps I am loving all the tough guys who are showing up in this thread. All wearing their fedoras while glossing over sun tzu.
     
  30. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    I feel it's worth mentioning SomethingAwful would probably only show up on the largest servers, past a certain point. High-profile targets, as it were. If that means a huge official or community-funded "MMO" server with thousands of players, that's what that means. If its just a really popular dedicated server than runs a few hundred players, mayyyybe they'd go after that, if it drew enough attention.

    But if the new netcode just ends up allowing for 50, 100 players? There'll be dozens, hundreds of servers like that. Goonswarm may or may not care at that point.

    Same.
     
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