Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

State of Development, Open Development in Early Access, Changes to Release System, Xbox One

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. Drui Keen Update Guy Administrator

    Messages:
    1,370
    • Like Like x 8
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. northypark Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    30
    Awesome. Lots of good info and worth the read! Well done :)
     
  3. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,206
    The thing i keep reminding myself is they're using their own custom made game engine.
    its not a pre-built one like unreal engine or unity which is easy to work with and add things to "easily" enough.
     
  4. Meridius_IX Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    I have mixed feelings about the new update releases in regards to bug fixing. The blog post says that outside of Major Updates, we'll only be seeing updates as they're necessary. It would be nice if player bug reports (that the devs have acknowledged / begun work on) were commented on with some details about when we can expect them to be finished - at least for minor stuff. For example, a comment saying "This fix will be included in the next major update" or "This fix will be included in an upcoming smaller update" would go a long way for the community. Using This Report from over a month ago as an example, there hasn't been any communication from the devs when this will be fixed, despite several users indicating they're also experiencing the same issue each week.

    TL;DR Better communication on when we can except some bugs to be fixed will go a long way with the community.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    388
    Indeed... and If Keen is going to make this new development cycle work, the next Major update needs to be the result of the mother of all bug hunts.

    Interesting blog post from Marek. A little too much lamentation about how difficult developing is... we get it... nobody likes criticism. (Of course, I guess that's a criticism of how he and Keen respond to criticism, so... there you go).

    Still, glad they're being open about this change. I've said before, the whole major/minor thing brought too many problems in terms of connotation. With luck, this change will allow major releases to be a fairly frequent thing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  6. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    291
    More money for more updates!
     
  7. Lithorn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    50
    I'd just be happy if multiplayer performance could be stable
     
  8. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    As Marek explained it, posting an update weekly was too tight a constraint, given that they have 8000 test cases to go through with each release. One thing such test cases are usually good for is catching regressions, and we've often suspected that some of the issues we've seen are regressions. So I'd definitely say it's a good idea to do more thorough testing, at the cost of less frequent updates. (I've seen other software projects reach that conclusion, and it's usually a good call.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    210
    Does this apply to ME as well? There was no update today, so I am starting to wonder...
     
  10. jaunetajabe Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    110
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,311
    So, will updates just come out whenever now or will they still do it on a Thursday?
     
  12. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    227
    Well, it's Friday in the UK now, so...

    One thing I noticed about the new 'road map', is that it is very, very unclear about when updates will happen now- entirely unspecific one might say, with no idea about the type of fixes there will be, how many or even when.

    [​IMG]

    Major update > hotfix for all the things the update broke > same again > start working on the next major update > ? > Major update.

    Clear as mud with no indication of schedule ( days, weeks months etc ), only that it takes 3 weeks of testing, minimum after they have made changes they wish to implement, and that there is no fixed schedule for releasing said changes to the wild.

    It would be nice to know if they planned a monthly, 6 weekly, whatever, update schedule at least- it just feels like 'whenever' is the answer now ( well, it is.. ), which is why so many people are worried about game development being abandoned; obviously it isn't, but sporadic updates are disconcerting and don't instil confidence the end result will be a fully polished, stable as it can be game...
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  13. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,344
    I look forward to a meaningful update, the little hotfixes felt like weekly stabs in the heart if I'm to be honest.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    It does make sense that they were pushing out updates too frequently for them to test the fixes thoroughly.

    IIRC, someone asked Marek about advanced notice of upcoming patches, so server admins can plan around them, and he said that seemed like a good idea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,311
    I'm thinking that since a weekly update has turned out to be less than ideal, they may want to ease up on trying to hit a specific date and time to publish an update. Any time they miss any sort of deadline, real or imagined, they catch hell. The decision to release a flawed update just to say they did it when they said they would versus holding up an update that's not ready in the name of quality will always be a bad one. Not committing to specific dates is a hallmark of game development. I, personally, don't need advance notice of an SE update any more than I need advance notice of a Windows update. Server admins and Modders are the ones that really need a heads up.

    My real question was whether or not they are giving up on regular updates entirely. I guess we'll find out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Royale98 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    57
    As I understand it after reading the blog post:
    The updates will be far less frequent, and will come out whenever KEEN feels the update is ready. These updates should also avoid the mass bug creation that is associated with major updates formerly, as they'll have plenty of time (or at least more) for testing and fixing.
    So I think what we can expect is, for example, rather than getting 1.XYZ, then all the various 1.XYZ.a minor updates, I believe we'll just get a finished 1.XYZ, then another 1.XYZ+1, then 1.XYZ+2, so on and so forth. With only some hotfixes in-between for crashes & gamebreakers when needed.

    From Marek's blog:
     
    • Late Late x 1
  17. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    252
    I could live very well with no promises of any sort of dates at all.
    The players would send and discuss bug reports if needed. And the devs could take more of the time they need.
    And once in a while there would be a 'surprise' update to which everybody would be in awe blast their opinions on and (hilariously)... demands.

    I mean, everybody just wanted only more and more and more anyway with this method.

    I think that if Keen would take this sort of path, everyone would be better off.
    And like KisSh0t said: i look forward to a meaningful update.
     
  18. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    227
    So, which is it- do you wanna know when updates will happen, or do you not need to know when updates will happen? There won't be any more 'regular updates'- they've said that much themselves, just the Major releases and hotfixes.

    Edit: lol, oh Digi, you do make me laugh. I quote someone who contradicts themselves by making two different statements, ask them which statement they want to stick by, then state a fact that was pulled from an official blog post and you 'disagree with me'. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    326
    I can't blame Keen for dropping the weekly updates. Even with all the extra effort to keep it going weekly, there were still people acting like the game was dead because that just wasn't fast enough.

    What I would like Keen to do is taking the major updates thematically (survival overhaul patch, planet graphics overhaul patch, combat patch, etc). Then I'd like if they announced the patch theme after whatever one they're currently working on. While only announcing the theme of the patch, they make no specific promises and can focus community feedback towards the next patch's theme. For example, if they announced a survival overhaul, the community would buzz mostly with ideas for new metals and how to implement them or new blocks/game mechanics for survival.

    This could be especially valuable with features that could benefit from large community debate, such as a tech tree patch.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,008
    Does anyone here believe that Keen will still develop the gameplay and add (long needed) features? Because all I hear from marek on the Blog is
    „ok Folks, we wrap it up, cut any development in new features, fix bugs and release. That’s it“

    I mean I look forward to SE being stable and smooth like a release title, but I fear that so many things and features in the game are still missing, and will be missing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  21. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    223
    If this leads to higher quality updates and such then I can live without the weekly updates. I definitely prefer quality over quantity in this instance. With that said the quality of the updates need to be on point otherwise I see this backfiring horribly. I just hope we don't get cases of a super annoying and potentially game breaking bug going unfixed for 4+ weeks as happened a few times with the whole dev/stable branch system used before, especially if you weren't a dev branch player. Keeping communication going with the players will be important with a system like this so folks know what's going on with the game. The closer the keen crew get to an update, perhaps a teaser of a completed feature/fix could be released in preparation for the update as just one hypothetical. As far as bug reports and fixes go, simply acknowledging a report in some form or fashion would go a long way towards calming fears they're not being seen. Even if it's just a simple post like from one of the staff etc. As for optimizations, alot of good work has been done, but there's still alot more to do. I look forward to being able to fly some of the larger ships in my arsenal planet side without the game grinding to a halt, or nearly locking up outright in combat.

    They can still add features and so on after the game has "released". The better majority of modern games out there do this today in the form of DLC or free updates after the game has been officially released and SE would be no exception to the rule in that instance.

    What features are "needed" is another debate entirely.
     
  22. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    On his blog, back in 2014, he said that they'd completed almost all the core features of SE, so they were going on to add scenarios and make it more like a game. On the next blog post, he said that, of course they weren't done adding features, and there was plenty more to come. As far as I can tell, he's alternated between those two statements ever since. I saw him quoted as saying that the last 10% takes 90% of the time; from that perspective, the two statements are consistent.

    So I think the reasonable expectation is that Keen will add a few new features, but not major ones.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Sebastian Höhne Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    When will the next update come?
     
  24. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,344
    [​IMG]

    A few months is my guess.
     
  25. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    227
    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  26. mike.enivid Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    Translation: We are not going to tell you anything about what we are doing. We will release big updates that are "surprises" which everyone will hate because we are not open about anything we are doing and don't really care what the community wants.

    Got it!
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 8
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    252
    I think you should watch it again.
    And this time really listen of what is objectively being said instead of what you would like to hear.
    I am aware these weekly updates have become a sort of Thursday-freak-dopamine-hit but i think that all disappointed people should really try to understand that this is better for quality instead of just "raging on".

    We still get to report bugs, and they will have more time to sort things out.
    And if there's a serious hardcore game breaking bug, i think they will still hotfix something up.
    Just relax already :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. FORSETI MMIII Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    Who said you could not release a bug fix this week, my game aint working FIX IT.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Late Late x 1
  29. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    128
    Well I've watched the Q&A and came away thinking Keen have given up (or are about to). What the hell was the point of it? Was it just to tell us that the updates are going to be slowing down again? It was just full of "no" or "we can't talk about that".

    Keens communication is generally lacking and then when they try to improve things the communication is just crap.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  30. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    388
    Marek needs to do the grown-up thing and hand communication over to professionals. He has professional programmers, professional artists... but communication... how hard can it be? Everyone communicates, right? Wrong, at least in terms of effective marketing and community relations-- just look to the bizarre teaser crap done around the time of the physics update.

    I am not sure what @Xocliw's real is with Keen these days, other than to sit silently in a Q&A stream and do his best impersonation of a Bond villain. And I presume that's not his choice.

    Two final points:

    1) Less frequent updates are fine if it means the updates we do get are significant and don't break more than they fix. That's a bitter pill for some of us-- regular updates offered the hope, at least, that problems will be fixed quickly. But ask yourself-- was that really the case?

    2) For those of you who keep saying, "other game companies don't do this," let's keep in mind that Keen, by virtue of its size and spending nearly five years with the game in early access, is by no means a typical game company at this point. I don't think it's a bad thing.

    EDIT: Adding one more thing, to directly address @gordon861 's comment. The latest message from Marek isn't about giving up. It's about making money. He is trying to a) streamline his employee's workflow towards pushing a "final" product and, b) laying the groundwork for DLC or expansion packs, which will allow Keen to continue to make money off of SE after it is locked and published officially.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4