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State of Development, Open Development in Early Access, Changes to Release System, Xbox One

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Mar 13, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    414
    "SE wasn't supposed to be a space survival game"...

    People are still flogging that dead equine? Keen decided to introduce survival elements to SE, whether players agree with it is moot it is NOW just as much a part of the game as PVP or multiplayer all can be avoided if a player wants. That said, development time should be focussed on getting multiplayer (both server and locally hosted) working properly because even though I don't do multiplayer much I can appreciate its importance.
     
  2. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    398
    That's my ideal situation I would like to see happen, not necessarily what I expect to happen in reality. Hardware and software limitations etc don't always meet everyone's ideal scenario and I fully understand that. I also see after looking back over my previous post I did not convey accurately my assumptions. I assume in my worlds that the massive starbase is a one off and not every single person is going to plop one down, but that it would be a one off for an entire faction or game as a whole. The ground base is the same way. That portion is my fault for not conveying that properly. As for the fighters you would be surprised how easily sometimes I can go through them, especially if I'm in space and get into a scrap with an Argentavius. If you have a printer type structure in mind I can draw ideas from I will be glad to take a look at it.

    I also assume that at some point I will have friends joining me on these worlds and that I won't be the only person flying or controlling these craft either. However right now this is the only game I have any issues at all hosting a multiplayer server with my crew of friends.

    As for the massive battles and such, what I expect is to be able to at least match the brief video clip you guys have or used to have in the main menu area that showed a fleet of about 7 ships hitting their jump drives at once. All of those ships look to be pretty decently sized from what I could tell. I also see you guys from time to time showed or used to show videos of a good chunk of people being able to connect to the game at once and play together without super huge issues. I don't expect to have battles the size of EVE Online or anything that massive. I do however expect that once everything is said and done I will at least be able to match or perhaps even exceed slightly the video clips you guys have shown before. If that's not going to be possible then those clips you guys showed before in the main menu or even during updates were intellectually dishonest. If you're going to show clips with 8 people on a server or a fleet of 7 decently sized capital ships jumping at once with no issues, I expect that I also will be able to host the same amount of people and jump 7 similarly sized ships and such.

    As to my own computer this is what I have right now. Windows 10 Home, 2 GTX 960 4gb cards in SLI, a AMD 8350 8 core processor, 32gb of ram, MSI 990FXA motherboard, along with 2 Kingston 225gb SSDs, a Toshiba 3tb HDD, and a Western Digital 1tb HDD all placed into a Core X9 case. I'm also running 4 monitors with a Logitech G13 Gamepad, Logitech G105 Keyboard, and Razer Naga 2014 mouse, along with Blue Yeti mic that I use for some youtube stuff and for gaming. I will also be upgrading to a new rig sometime in the next couple months. Point being I'm not exactly running cheap hardware. In fact at one point several months ago I landed that Starbase on a planet and locked onto the pirate headquarters with my landing gears. The starbase shredded the pirate installation and took off back into space again. This was the mark I variant of the base that was 173m kilos before the refit. In fact it wasn't until later I had issues with that base unless I was in combat. I can also run The Division with no issues on the higher settings. I realize I'm probably the exception and not the norm when it comes to computer builds, however there are those of us out there with rigs that can do most anything we throw at them today. I also realize you weren't saying that to be insulting either and that both of us are simply stating our points.
     
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  3. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Do you have server that is as strong as the one used for that video? (But I have no idea what video you are referencing)
     
  4. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    Exactly. The player is given an outlet to express their creativity so it is inevitable that imagination will exceed hardware capability. Fleet battles? One player with 4 capitol ships and a wing of fighters? This is the mentality that reasonable players have to cope with in MP.

    There are games out there specifically designed to have fleet battles. Games which have performance drops even though the fleet is considered 8 individual objects instead of 20 thousand x 8 (don't argue the particulars here and get the gist please).

    No, big ships ARE unreasonable YET inevitable.

    I've already posted about making the limitations clearer to players. I personally haven't come across any that I felt hindered my designs yet, but I can imagine how frustrated (yet understanding) I'd be if I was halfway done a monster creation and found out I couldn't finish it regardless of how good the reasons are.

    In addition to clarifying limits, there really needs to be tutorials about certain design concepts/flaws that could cause problems. For example, imagine 4 conveyor junctions in a 2x2 square. How many possible conveyor routes are there? Now makes this into a 4x4 square, or a 2x2x2 cube. Now make a 10x10x10 cube. It's not just block counts but the complexity as well.

    Until quantum/super computing becomes mainstream this is a marketing issue. Nobody wants to read the game description and see limitations, so marketing will dance around the topic. The naive customer then feels duped because (regardless how silly it actually is) they can't fulfill their wildest imaginations, and Keen can't pin a post on their forums saying "don't be stupid".

    Engineering is about coping with all possible limitations. This has more meaning than most players want to admit.
     
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  5. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    398
    the video clip i'm referring to is one that showcased a fleet of blue looking ships for a moment before all 7 of them hit their jump drives at once. for awhile it was featured as a video clip in the main menu area. There was also a video of 2 of these ships taking pot shots at each other that existed around the same time in a second video clip. If I had the video clip handy I would gladly post it for you so you could see the reference. I don't know how to describe it much better than that but if someone else knows of the clip I'm referring to then they can chime in. With that said I have had varying degrees of luck running similar space battles on my own rig, and could easily rent server space to run SE off of or build my own at this point, but I would rather not sink the amount of cash required to do so into it. I assume those 7 blue ships were going to engage an enemy fleet or something along those lines. Whether or not that was actually the case of what happened after doesn't negate the fact the clip of them actually jumping was a thing for awhile. Your question suggests to me however it was never intended for such things to take place for the most part, and especially not on the average computer rig. If that's the case then I have to wonder why you would feature such video clips of a fleet like that hitting their jump drives if such things aren't intended on a regular basis. Other than to perhaps say "hey look what this guy did", since it could give folks false impressions of the game's capability and such, even if that was never the intention.

    Most sensible people understand that there are limits as to what the software and hardware can do. Those that don't will be quickly made to understand when they crash into those limitations at some point or another. If someone is expecting to have fleet battles the size of something like EVE Online or similar then yes they're wasting their time. With that in mind I fail to see how it's unreasonable to expect to be able to match the capabilities demonstrated in some of the video clips that Keen themselves have featured in their own main menu area in the past. in the past they have featured video clips showing that small fleet of 7 blue ships hitting their jump drives at once, a mining operation featuring what I counted as roughly 8 active small ships, on their main menu. In some of their updates they have also featured videos showcasing 5+ people hoping out of a ship, suggesting that getting a fair amount of people onto the same world should be no issue. If they're going to feature such things when in fact that's not feasible for the average players, then that gives false impressions of the game's capabilities, be it intentional or not, and thus creates false hopes for players. Basically saying "look at these cool action shots that aren't feasible in the average game."

    I fail to see what's unreasonable about being able to at least match the capabilities they're demonstrating the game to have with some of the video clips I've mentioned.
     
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  6. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    I wasn't addressing your specific examples. Actually I don't see how the ones you've listed aren't possible even now in v186.

    I admin a 'basic' server that is capable of handling 6 people before the sim drops. Six people with a single small ship jumping or mining has never been a problem in my experience. Anything more than that does cause the sim to drop but is still fine. It's when people start using autominer drones while also running a rotor/piston drill miner, while welding a gianormous projection with an 8+ welder ship is where I see sim problems. But specific examples are not my point...

    This has not been my experience but you're probably right and Keen is dealing with a VERY vocal minority, but this makes it worse. These special few can/have/will ruin it for everyone else in both a gameplay and dialogue perspective.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  7. Gustavo Julião Trainee Engineer

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    18
    The problem is not the hardware of the person, but they do not use all their power. A couple of my friends got together and set up a server using these settings: Ryzen 7 1700, 16Gb DDR4, SSD 120Gb. And Sim Speed still falls even when it was a Notebook with i5-3210m and 4Gb DDR3. And in both cases the Space Enginners host is consuming a maximum of two Processor Cores while others are out of work, the way to solve would be to make a system of distributing the work to the Multithreaded. I am using google translator since Brazilian and the server has the name of (SERVERINO) every day enter around 5 to 16 players and the server with several systems to avoid that there is fall of the SS and the playes were all conscientized to warn when to do something that gives rise to the SS. But if I'm saying something wrong answer.
     
  8. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Man, I have not studied marketing, but why would someone show something on low-grade HW?
    Whenever you are creating screenshots/video, you aim for the highest quality and best look. If there were 7 ships jumping, then it is probably posible to make 7 ships jump at the same time... but why on earth would someone present its game on crappy PC?

    I know it will sound arogant, you all will throw stones at me and I will became the most hated SE developer again (again after changes to thruster damage :D), but who's fault is it, you have average PC? Definitely not developer's. (Disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion and it has nothing to do with KEEN's opinion, so when the shitstorm starts, you can leave "that's not profesional" out of the way :D )
     
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  9. Gustavo Julião Trainee Engineer

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    18
    You read it correctly. The specifications are from the server. Computer used supports to run Space Enginners multiplayer service. Even changing hardware more meui more powerful with one of the best processors of the actuality still continues with the fall of SS.
     
  10. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Well, just saying that some things cannot be distributed... or at least distributed without massive changes to base code. There are still things that have to be done sequentialy (would get broken, it 2 or more threads would work on same dataset). And you don't even know what pain it can be when more threads accesses same data and modify them... and then bugs happen only sometimes and are completely random.
     
  11. Gustavo Julião Trainee Engineer

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    18
    I'm a Python developer I know how it works but there are processes that could already be added that would already help a bit in SS. There is no need to do everything at once. And for the problem of threads firing multiple files at the same time could put up a manual system as I have seen, that simply the host owner selects what each processed will do causing fewer bugs to occur Example: puts a cores to process a part of the physical and other for the administration of materials (Refinery, containers ..) among others.
     
  12. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Letting players decide what and how it will be distributed? I just imagined it... I... I think I have been scarred for life... I definitely know, what will be in my today's nightmares... I think... I will just go and try to think about something nice... Something like those bat buritos

    :D
     
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  13. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    Coming to a Taco Fel near you!
     
  14. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    924
    So.. so cute! and so.. horrifying! how can this be at the very same time??

    Stop it this instant. With such conflicting emotions rattling around in our heads, how can any meaningless prattle ever get going again?

    It would be like the horror of seeing something that would be terrifying IRL- only to realize a second later that it was fun... but yet- would still be absolutely terrifying to witness IRL! [<--irresistible spoiler clickbait ;)]
     
  15. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,548
    I know this is a really stupid idea for SE, but for just silly creative multiplayer fun I kind of wish there was a teleporter, like in Halo... I only thought about it recently after playing the Halo Online mod "ElDewrito".. I played this custom map and it was like a down angled ramp and when you got to the bottom you just appeared at the top of the ramp again with the same momentum you had when at the bottom, so you just keep getting faster and faster until something happens.

    Just imagine trying to make something like this in SE, it would be so random :woot:

     
  16. torgo Apprentice Engineer

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    188
    I had drawn up, in an Excel sheet, deck by deck plans for a cruise ship that was almost 600 large blocks long, 200 wide, and 75 high. It had 20 decks, almost 1000 individual rooms, some wide open spaces, working, callable elevators, a full engineering department, docking space for 9 smaller ships, 200 working escape pods @ 16 people each and a whole bunch of other fun stuff (plus tables, chairs, beds, etc). It was fully pressurized and each room had an air supply.

    I had about 200 hours into it in survival, and had the keel, outer hull and a few decks done, all in survival. The first section I completed was the engineering section with 16 refineries and 24 assemblers. I had a robot mining fleet that went out and got ore to deliver to the refineries while I built. I needed at least another 1000 hours to finish it, but then planets came out and I started building a monstrous base (think KSC VAB). All this on single player, because I don't mix well with others. All just because I could.

    Maybe once my son gets a little older and can help me we'll give it another shot. After ME got much improved, I was over there building massive projects that pushed the limits of structural integrity. My last build had a 3 block wide bridge that spanned a full zone and parts of 2 others, and had about 25 meters of elevation change underneath along the way. When it was done, it made it much quicker to run from town to the mine. That was fun because of the engineering challenge of building it in survival. It only took about 60 hours total once I had it planned out, and most of that was a very small part that featured the 10 block high superstructure.

    But now, I'm over in Kerbals for a while, working on a massive moonbase in career mode.
     
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  17. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    I won't even comment the idea of building this in SE.... but have you considered creating rather than ship in SE, model in real life? You could make it from whatever material with as much details you want. With no limitations to your imagination (except for physics). In case you are not that much of a model builder, you can try some modeling software. This way it can even deny physical laws :D and it can have further uses :)
    --- Automerge ---
    I don't know, but I see nothing horrifying about those small cute little foxes. Everything about them is completely awesome... and they can fly :D
     
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  18. AJman14 Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Ok, this is really concerning me.. I haven't seen any updates for Space Engineers for over 2 months now! I know that Keen wasn't going to update every Thursday anymore, but it feels like the bugs that have been posted since the last update are being ignored. I thought there would at least be a monthly update.

    I haven't even played recently, because I was annoyed at so many bugs that could've been fixed way before now.
     
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  19. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Oh man! That's really strange! I haven't seen any update for over 2 months either... What coincidence! Such luck!!! Much strange!!!!!
     
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  20. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    809
    OK, all this talking about huuuge, massiiiiive, gi-gan-tic oversized overambitious overueber Titans... got me curious. Now I will download 'Amanda Tapping' if she is on workshop and explore it.
    Think big!
    Can't say my creations are small either. I am grateful to KEEN for making it all possible, if small, if many or if big...
     
  21. Sich Trainee Engineer

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    89
    This is why maybe, once SE is "bug free", and some love in multiplayer, that restarting from scratch with all you have learned can be a good idea to make another game...
    But there are some bugs to fix before :)

    Honestly, with the price of SE and the time I have spend to play at this game I will buy your new project if you go in this way, and if you make if linux compatible (I really don't want to switch to Win8 or 10).
     
  22. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    398
    Respectfully sir, where did I suggest showing everything from low grade hardware? As someone who does a bit of work with video editing and such myself, I get wanting to make things look as good as possible and all, so that's not what my issue is or anywhere close to what I was suggesting at all with my previous posts. What I suggested was what I would like to see happen in my ideal situation for the game if a magical genie, or even Q himself from Star Trek gave me the power to make it happen. That was not necessarily what I expect to happen in reality. Let's be real here, you and I both understand there are hardware and software limits that simply cannot be ignored no matter what we do that simply cannot be ignored. It's possible to acknowledge the limits while still wishing for potential performance improvements.

    As far as marketing goes I'm no genius in the subject but I've been around business enough in my life and studied enough of the subject to know there's a few things you don't want to do. First of which you don't want to do is give the average customer false hopes of what they can do with your product, be it intentional or not. In the case of the 7 jumping blue ships, it was on the main menu videos for the longest time, which can give people the false impression that using similarly sized ships and such, they to can do the same thing. Thus such a video can give the impression that it's possible to have a fleet battle between 2 similarly sized fleets when in actuality it's just an action shot according to what you're saying here. In fact one of the update videos released fairly recently shows a decent sized group of ships attacking an opposing space station. Albeit the battle is heavily one sided it hints at some of the possibilities that can happen in game, being battles between factions and groups that size. In this same video it also shows 10 people disembarking a ship that are part of the attacking faction, and those are just the people we see. So this suggests to me that folks will be able to have a decently sized group of friends engaging in fairly sized combat actions. In fact here is the video I'm referring to.


    This is taken from the official Space Engineers youtube channel. By seeing this, whether you intend it or not, you're going to give the average gamer the idea that they to can experience this same kind of battle and conduct the same types of operations etc, when in reality it's just a pretty action shot and to get close to having that many friends on, let alone the actual battle, they would need their own personally built or rented server to do it. Thus it gives the average gamer(s) false hopes about what they can actually do. It suggests to the average gamer they can have these kinds of experiences if they just buy the game and play, when in reality it's not as simple as that. Going off your statements that essentially tell people to play another game if they want some sort of fleet battle, why would you show something that borders on the same type of thing if it's not intended for modest combat actions and fleet battles?

    When it comes to marketing you also don't want to insult your current or potential customers, perceived or otherwise. In some of the final bits of your post you make this key portion of your statement "but who's fault is it, you have average PC? Definitely not developer's." You preface that by saying you know it will sound arrogant and that it's your personal opinion. Since we're being real and we're both adults here, it doesn't just sound arrogant, it is arrogant. With that obligatory statement out of the way, I've posted my specs in this thread previously, so we know for a fact I'm not on a cheap PC. You and I both know there are people out there with specs that exceed even mine that play this game. With this computer I can play Tom Clancy's The Division, and Ghost Recon Wildlands on the higher graphics settings with no issues. Those are 2 games that are known for being a pain in the neck to run on a PC, especially on the higher settings. I can play 99% of games out there on the higher or even highest settings with this rig as it sits now. In the coming weeks as I upgrade this rig even further, or perhaps a rebuild depending on my mood at the time, I will be able to guarantee I can run anything out there today. I rather enjoy Space Engineers and the concept of being able to design my own ships and build them from scratch in game. With that said, Space Engineers is the only game that even tries to give me fits, such as in a combat situation, or trying to fly my starbase. There have been improvements made to the game which are undeniable, and I hope improvements continue to be made as I don't want to see the game tank and go under by any means. With that said however, knowing I can play 99% of all other games out there today with no issues, but just SE tries to cause fits, tell me what of these 2 things is more likely. Something is up with Space Engineers, or it's my PC. I realize someone like me that actually invests a fair chunk of change is the exception and not the norm, but to assume that everyone who has issues has a crap pc is NOT a smart move or thing to say. If I'm having issues and my rig is above the average in terms of power available to run a game, how much more of an issue do you think the average gamer is going to have?

    Finally concerning "throwing stones." Far as I'm concerned this was 2 adults having a civil discussion and debate over something, nothing more nothing less. I'm sure we could both drop our fair share of one liners and insults, but what exactly would that accomplish in the long run.
     
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  23. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    Respectfully, I don't think this is an accurate depiction of marketing goals. Marketing's job is to convince the audience to spend money on the product as best they can while Legal reigns them in from going too far. They will show you a video in which the opponents team has max 10 people on screen and hope the audience will assume that means 20 people can play simultaneously. How many ads for anything have you seen with little disclaimers saying things like 'sequence's shortened' or 'your experience may vary'? Truth in advertising? Lawyers argue 'no reasonable person would expect ads to be honest' and win. It's the nature of the beast. Your job as a shrewd customer is to not be fooled/do your research. Really businesses don't want to be caught flat out lying (until it's too late) and even then it's because word-of-mouth can ruin your cred.

    That video does not lie, it advertises.
     
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  24. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    536
    In recent years, developers have noted whether visuals in promotional materials actually reflect in-game experience or not. That seems like an easy and responsible thing to do. Maybe Keen should consider doing this.
     
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  25. AJman14 Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Really? It is a legitimate concern, and this is how staff is going to respond??

    I'm sorry, but I just lost my respect for Keen, in regard to their choice of forum staff.
     
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  26. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    maybe you should work on not getting hurt so easily then, cuz its not their job to be your buddy no matter what outrage culture has you thinking.
     
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  27. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,180
    To be fair, there's much to be done on both sides in terms of being.. simply polite ^^
     
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  28. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

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    429
    Also to be fair, there's a reason that there's a job called "Community Manager"...and a reason that software developers typically don't do that job.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,185
    I agree with exactly half of that ;). Actually, there may be good reasons to have a large ship in your game. This never comes up when talking about stations, and people build humungous stations all the time, granted stations don't cause all the issues ships do. I started the game building a large station and halfway through realized that for my purposes it made more sense to build my base once and take it with me when I move on. You can't call my ship unreasonable if I have reasons. You might not agree with them but, as stated elsewhere in this thread, Keen does create expectations with every video they produce, every blog they write, and every media event with at least one employee present. Nothing Keen has officially produced that I am aware of hypes playing the game conservatively. They all seem to want you to feel comfortable "going for it."

    This is so true (although, define "normal" survival game). I build my ships in Creative instead of Survival because the point is to see if the damn thing would actually work if I did build it in Survival. I have my own servers and that is where my ships will live. I'm assuming that if my ageing Dell workstation can handle them now, one of my PowerEdge servers should be up to the task.

    With some work, a person could host a world that only had the Amanda Tapping in it and provide plenty of activity for 100 players, even if it was converted into a station.

    Thing about SE is that you generally have to start small. Playing in Survival means the average player won't have the time (and probably the patience) to build something larger than 300 meters. Some of us have the time, and we are curious as to what constitutes "too big". I thought that elsewhere in these forums there was a consensus that Amanda Tapping was the outer limit of what one could "reasonably" build and run. I don't know if it's "reasonable" for the average player to assume that they can build and fly a fleet of Tappings on their laptop, but they should be able to assume that they might see and maybe play on a fleet of Tappings on a server.

    After all the improvements that have happened over the years, and the fact that my fleet of ships, all larger than what Keen considers "large", work so well (not perfectly, but well) on what at the end of the day most people would consider an average pc, it's a little disconcerting to hear from a developer that I may have picked the wrong game. I'm not aware of any other game where I can do what I'm doing in Space Engineers. I have no choice but to use the wrong game. That's your fault, Keen.
     
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  30. AJman14 Trainee Engineer

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    15
    I don't think I was hurt by his comment. It just surprised me that when a staff member had seen my comment, he did nothing to provide a positive answer.

    Edit: I've seen a lot of respect for the community in Keen's Discord server, which is why I was so surprised to see the lack of an answer, and a sarcastic remark, here.
     
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