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The big elephant in the room: Survival is Broken

Discussion in 'General' started by LFCavalcanti, Oct 24, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Planets are really pushing the hype train, so much I got the game out of the shelf.

    So, some problems I found were there before I stopped playing and were reported a bazillion times over.

    Why I stopped playing? Well, after no word on Netcode and frankly with Ark to play, I just felt it was good to wait until planets are available. Then I saw The Martian, the stream yesterday and here I was creating a new Survival SP world.

    A little list of why Survival is broken:
    - Mining still is problematic, the asteroid don't render properly, come times the drill find and invisible wall.
    - Some scenarios are damn hell near impossible to survive on Realistic settings, like Lone Survivor, because now with Hydrogen that little amount of ice not only goes for oxygen but also to power your suit. And you'll fly a lot before you build your first ship.
    - Some asteroids are so broken you can pass through them, yes like "no clipping".
    - If you enable Hazards, Random Encounters and both Oxygen(All survival features) there's a lot of situation you'll not be able to survive no matter what.

    So, please KSH, when we got planets and on Creative mode work with them, will be pretty frustrating.

    I could get into more detail, but I'm sure someone else will point out more problems.
     
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  2. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    Yeah, it only takes a look at the bug section to see there are a lot of problems.

    I have to wonder if some of these problems are related to planets, during the stream, the way the planet renders when you get close enough, it made it seem like it turns into a square at some point perhaps this change in voxels is related to that.
    If you check the version they were running, It's (almost) the same as ours but our version has the planet content disabled :(

    (Shouldnt the tittle be...The big elephant in the small room?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  3. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    This feels misleading, like you're saying that now you only get half as much oxygen out of the available ice. You still get the same amount of oxygen as always, just now you also get hydrogen on top of that.
     
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  4. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    914
    New updated survival was always "lethal on first go".. that's because survival mode is supposed to be a "challenge". A "problem that needs to be solved.. to survive"

    Why play a "survival" mode if you can just walk around and not have to struggle simply to survive? It is kind of the point- don't you think?

    :101:An example is when I first started trying to survive with Cataclysm weather hazards on Lone Survivor. :eek: REALLY hard to survive the first 10 minutes. The first few times. Then I learned some tricks, some engineering directions, some altered list of priorities. Now I can reliably survive no problem (its no walk in the park- but that's kind of the point). My in-game Engineer has engineered a matrix of solutions, solved a great deal of the puzzles and problems, and self taught himself a lot about ship design in such an "abrasive" environment as well.

    That is the. Game. of it all. So get playing. Get learning. Go survive. Or experience Darwinism. Either way it will be a good show. :munch:
     
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  5. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    It's actually based on my testing. I noticed that now Hydrogen is actually consuming more ice, parallel to Oxygen, well, not sure if KSH wanted it to be that way or a bug. If you have more sound info on that, I welcome it.
     
  6. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    Well from what we've heard, they want planets to be the basis of the game now... so you'll start on planets and be based out of them.

    That takes care of your need for oxygen and hydrogen.

    I know prior to hydrogen survival was Difficult, but hardly impossible, even with meteors on, and at 1x everything. I'll try a quick game with Hydrogen and see what it's become... (Reserved for results)
     
  7. Fenris Apprentice Engineer

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    356
    It's even more lethal when there are no asteroids ........
     
  8. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    I suggest before making such pedantic posts you actually read the OP and check the Steam Profile. I played Space Engineers a lot, I understand pretty well how this game works.

    No problem at all with struggle. The are, however, impossible situations.

    If you have a game that forces a situation on the player that no matter what he does he can't survive, well that's not a struggle, it's a broken mechanic.

    Care for an example?
    One of the 4 times I created a world with Lone Survivor Scenario(for testing purposes) a meteor hit the Reactor, beyond repair. That's a game over.

    The Solution? Destroy your Medbay and suicide to respawn on a rescue ship, but that's exploiting, I might say even cheating the game.
     
  9. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    I see, a change for sure. But you know, we should have the option to start on a asteroid field and proceed to planets as we build better ships, I think that's a bigger challenge.

    You may find different results than me, because events like Random encounters and Meteors are random.

    See the example I posted above. If a Random Encounter or any cargo ship with weapons get near your base in the "early hours" you lose(Lone Survivor and Rescue Ship scenarios), also if a meteor hits you generator before you have assembled the materials to repair it, also game over.

    One of my runs with Lone Survivor today had the following events:
    1. I Spawn and immediately disabled everything I was not using.
    2. Wen to search for Uranium
    3. Random encounter starts to fly towards my base
    4. Processed Uranium while searching for materials to build a small ship.
    5. Meteors hit my Reactor, didn't had the materials ready.
    6. Random Encounter reaches my base 3 min later and starts shooting at me and the base.
    That's a broken run for sure.

    In another Run, asteroids were not rendering as solid materials at all, so I couldn't mine anything.(Rescue ship scenario)

    Okay, try again... Only the asteroid(Crashed ship) had rendered as a physical material, all others around me were "ghosts", guess what? No Ice on that asteroid, so I woudl eventually run out of Hydrogen and Oxygen and Game Over.

    6 hours trying, 13 worlds created, not a single one I could play more than 20-30min without the game bugging somehow or producing random events that made impossible to survive. To me that's a broken mechanic, people can call me lazy, say I don't know how to play, my opinion stands.

    We just need a Bug Fixing season on Survival balancing and mechanics.
     
  10. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,532
    I wonder if there will be elephants on planets....
     
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  11. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    That's... not broken? That's just the meteors mechanic working as intended. Leave shit where it can get hit, it can get hit.

    It was bad luck, sure, but not a broken mechanic. What's the point of meteors if they can't kill your ship?
     
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  12. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Which part of "one of the times" you missed? I'm not saying that's the only problem, it was an example.

    Now read my post to Ash87.
     
  13. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    The context you brought it up in seemed to be indicating you considered it a broken feature because it had killed your ship.
     
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  14. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    I run crashed red ship as my survival.

    First run on that yielded good results, was able to do what I needed to consolidate a hold, I could from there survive from.

    I'll have to try Lone survivor later. Booted it up to check, and I mean... the random encounter factor is something you can't really predictably counter in the first little bit, that is for sure. The biggest issue I forsee, is the lack of gas storage, and asteroids... only way to really -prevent- the asteroids is to take the time to build myself a shield for the base (This is why I don't play lone survivor).

    And as to the thing about starting on planets... I mean I am sure they will keep the Lone survivor, crashed red ship, etc. options there. It'd be silly to take those options Out, so I wouldn't worry.

    I'd say a good solution to this, would be to rework the starting missions, so you don't have an open platform like you do, but to enclose the basic starting systems in a heavy armor room, so asteroids or enemy ships have to plink at you long enough for you to devise a decent counter. That would potentially raise your survival rate (I'd suspect).

    What kind of solutions would You propose?
     
  15. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    I could live with the Meteors and Encounters if the asteroids and mining were not so clumsy.

    1 - Fix the asteroid rendering, the voxels textures and etc, so you don't have ghost asteroids.
    2 - Make sure that Ice is rendered in asteroids, because you have no way to survive without it, okay you have the solar generator for oxygen, but come on, that's not a solution.
    3 - FIX MINING, this is one of those bugs that are almost older than the Landing Gear one, it's a fundamental mechanic of Survivor mode.
     
  16. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    What is the problem with mining?

    I legitimately never have problems getting things to render, or getting material back... Why I am asking.
     
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  17. Bahroth Apprentice Engineer

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    173
    Well one issue I have occasionally is phasing into the asteroid and losing all control, praying I slowly wander into the mining tunnel/outside of the roid.
    Longest I've waited was ~30-45 minutes (was near middle). This becomes frightening for me when I think of planets...
     
  18. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Aside the problems I explained above with asteroids?

    Drills will get stuck on invisible walls some times, be that Drone ships or manually controlled.

    Drills don't collect materials when the voxel rendering bugs, a visible wall of nothing, sort of speak.

    Handdrills push you backwards so hard you hit the asteroid and get health damage.

    I'm sure there's more... if you haven't experienced these problems, very lucky of you. All of these above have been reported on the Bug section, many times in fact. I just find odd that KSH leave these kinds of bugs and go had-on planets... creative mode? SURE! Survival will not be a pleasant experience with planets in the current state of things.
     
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  19. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    I've found the asteroid render issues only happen in DX11. Switch to DX9 and it should be fine, or at the least substantially improved. (I went to a particularly distant asteroid and some of it didn't finish changing to LOD0, a reload fixed it)

    That said, survival is easily playable. Remember when assemblers didn't work? That was game breaking, but you could still salvage cargo ships. Likewise when mining broke. There's always a workaround.
     
  20. Fenris Apprentice Engineer

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    356
    I've had problems disappearing asteroids with DX9 as well. In fact if I alt+tab out of the game then go back in, every single asteroid has become invisible.
     
  21. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    You could try full screen window mode.
     
  22. entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    I think this is most likely a bug. I've been trying to test O2 and H2 since the update to adjust my mod for hydrogen and the results are wildly inconsistent. In my case, in survival, I was getting more of both gases than the ratios suggested I would. With 1,000kg of ice, I should get 3,000 units of O2 and 3,000 units of H2. While the figures were equal, I was getting over 4,000 of each, sometimes over 5,000. So, something funky is going on with the gases and, yes, that needs to be fixed. But, I didn't have the issue of Hydrogen consuming more ice.

    As for the jetpack, it requires you to be smarter about how you use it. It should be used more for getting going and for stopping and turning, but not for continual use. I found that I was going to run out of oxygen long before I ran out of hydrogen fuel for the pack. This simply requires one to adapt. I've adapted by turning off inertial dampeners most of the time. You use no hydrogen fuel (or an insignificant amount, anyway) when the jetpack is on, but idle... like when inertial dampeners are off. I'm wondering if they turned down the energy requirements with the addition of hydrogen. The suit should require less energy now that powering the pack is done by hydrogen instead of electricity.
     
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  23. BoxxyBrown Apprentice Engineer

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    122
    The problem I have in survival is actually the reverse. I don't play with comets, to me that's just .. an unnecessary complication. But again, that's just me.

    What I end up getting bored with, is once you're "stable" - the threat of running out of uranium or ice is gone, you've got a way to recharge and all that, the game is basically "over." At that point, for me, it just feels like meticulous creative mode. I end up just designing ships in creative, and then blueprinting them into survival because I don't want to spend all the time trial-and-erroring ideas in survival, making the multiple trips, grinding mistakes, re-welding, etc.

    Although, I haven't played survival after they added pirates. I'd enjoy combat more with semi-arcade shields. I like flying small and fast fighters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  24. TheDeinonychus Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    88
    You do realize that that 'argument' is just a round about way of saying that 'anyone who finds something too difficult is just bad at it'.
    This isn't being dropped in the middle of the unpopulated north west with a kitchen knife and told to survive for three weeks. This is a game. Hell, even games that drop you in the middle of the unpopulated north west give you more of a fighting chance than that! Yes, games need to have a challenge, but the challenge shouldn't be difficult to the point that it becomes frustrating. If it does, it means the person playing it doesn't have any fun, and the game fails at it's one actual job, providing enjoyment.
    That's the reason a lot of games have optional levels of difficulty. Not everyone finds the same levels of difficulty entertaining. Look at Ark. That game gives you options to tailor damned near every aspect of the game to make it just as difficult or easy as you'll find enjoyable. While Space Engineers does have some things you can adjust to your liking, it's also still got others that are hard-coded, and outside of mods, no way to change them. If you're fine with needing oxygen, but don't like also needing hydrogen for your suit, you're out of luck. You either have to put up with both, or stick to creative mode which also changes nearly every other aspect of the game.
    While Keen has been fairly good so far about giving the players options to tailor their games to their likes (thruster damage, meteor storms, and other optional aspects of the game), they need to open up a few more options rather than making things set in stone. Just from the past update there's at least two things that should have been optional settings, rather than mandatory changes (the inertial dampener nerf and suits requiring hydrogen). There's already mods out to revert those two changes back to how they were before, and it's already on the first page of popular mods.
     
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  25. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    I tried both DX11 and DX9... but since DX11 is so unoptimized, I'm still playing with DX9, for me it's like 20 FPS better.

    Yup, first lesson I learned in this game was "When to disable Inertial Dampeners and turn off thusters and jetpack".

    I mean, with no asteroid you can't really have a survival world, unless you spawn on the station.

    Yes, that's why we need a proper Multiplayer system.
     
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  26. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,532
    Post your system specs including what operating system you are running.
     
  27. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    I suppose there should be a checkbox in there to revert the boost to ion thrusters we got a ways back, too. And to disable cargo contents having weight. And when the next tweak to a tweak to a tweak comes out, an option to disable it and revert to one of the prior tweaks.

    The game is taking shape. This is all the Intended Way Of Things. Keen are not obligated to leave things the same or make things optional.
     
  28. BoxxyBrown Apprentice Engineer

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    122
    Oh, good call. I meant comets. Haha
     
  29. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    914
    I had no intention of insulting anyones experience at the game. I was talking about learning new ways to maneuver in the depth of the game. (possibly the :101: emote cannot come off as anyway other than insulting- that's a shame)

    I appreciate your example, to expand upon (this will be under cataclysm survival start- with aforementioned kitchen knife)
    - meteor showers are known to be frequent- immediate step1: grind away a few platform blocks and place (simply place- 1 steel) cages over the important stuff- (reactor, o2 gen) in a rough (and rapid) shell around them, 2 blocks deep. With an airgap (so cage starts 2 blocks away, and cage is 2 blocks deep). This will "catch" the meteor strikes aiming for your reactor- 4 blocks away- Thats ablative armor. and it works great against meteors. even big ones. Sure, you may have to recheck and replace the grid from time to time, but that's the price we must pay.

    - the ablative cages are a mere step "to hold out long enough" to do the real project- move it all indoors. With the drill, RMB makes a nice clean hole into the rock. go on in. deep. place deck (again place only) as you go (to link the power), then as rapidly as you can manage, relocate everything from out there in the firing zone, to inside.

    -You can ease things a bit by hacking your gear to make an early small container- The interior plate blocks, catwalk sections, grav gen should give you all the parts you need. Point of note- knowing what you need to make something specific- and knowing where to tear the components needed out of, is a new survival skill in itself (I often scrap my medbay, for the trace amounts of silver needed to make reactor components (hint hint- if your reactor is destroyed), and also often scrap my o2 gen and tanks for materials as well- once I am able to make a small ship o2 gen and use it as my much more affordable recharge/regasify lifepod- leaving me with more spare parts in the exchange!

    -If you (or I) can manage to salvage a large ship early, simply snip the deck with all the goodies on it away, and convert it to a ship, and move that whole chunk of deck inside- inside a hollowed out asteroid with decently intact walls. Small ships are able to landing gear grip and "tug" that station piece around as well (just be sure to convert that snipped deck into a ship)


    ... so you should see, after reading these beginning steps, that leaving the vital equipment out in the open, just "hoping" that it wont get hit- is suicidal. Of course if it gets hit its game over (but not necessarily!). but there are things that can be done to mitigate/remove that possibility, there are ways to recover from tragedy and still survive- in fact; those are the most exciting times for me!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
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  30. entspeak Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,744
    Then your issue with jetpack a shouldn't be an issue.
     
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