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The cure is worse than the disease.

Discussion in 'General' started by Ronin1973, Aug 28, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Yes, Keen is attempting to fix bugs. However, after 8 days of this, it seems that their fixes are breaking the game worse than the bugs they are meant to solve.

    I'm not here to rant. That doesn't do very much for anyone.

    But since we're in a bug fix cycle rather than a feature cycle, how about not releasing any bug fixes until they've been tested for a week?

    Push back the release of planets if you have to, but deliver bug fixes every two weeks with the second week devoted to testing of the fixes with some play-testers. There are plenty of people who would volunteer.

    The object of the exercise is to remove problems, not create them. There's no sense in breaking-it-differently. There's also no sense in releasing bad code and ruining everyone's experience. Sure there's the hot-fix on Friday. But just don't release fixes until they've been seasoned after a week of testing.

    Again. It's not a rant. But just a suggestion for the bug-fix cycle.
     
  2. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

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    381
    No need to get your knickers in a twist. I'm sure the hotfix will be coming sometime today to fix whatever got broke.

    If not? There's always next week!

    Such is the vicious cycle of development.
     
  3. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    Nah, I'd much rather have an update every week than every two weeks. The occasional additional "bug" or unforeseen consequences is a small price to pay.
     
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  4. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    You're talking as if we were swarmed by bugs since the bugfix period started.

    Please, be less dramatic and less exagerated, there are hardly that many new bugs.

    You talk about bad code, so I assume you know little about how this works, in short, any change, addition, reduction to the code will spawn issues somewhere, some are easily found, some require certain actions or conditions and some are user-system related.

    Basicly, there's no way to avoid creating problems while messing with the code in any way. They can find some but not all, you cant possibly be serious about testing every single aspect of the game with every bugfix they do as even unrelated stuff can get affected.

    The game may work perfectly for some people, it may not for others, this is hard to reproduce as every computer is different.
     
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  5. Lyrus Apprentice Engineer

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    What bug are you talking about? I see very few new post in bug section?
     
  6. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    It's this time of year, I imagine (and I could be completely wrong) a few developers have taken a bit of a holiday. And there would be nothing wrong with that.
     
  7. Sergeant Snuggles Junior Engineer

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    I would agree with this, but then I don't fully so I can't =P

    Last week was a good example of the devs releasing an innocent patch that broke so many fundamental things that enough players could all kick off at once (including myself) and complain about/report the problem. Now the hotfix came out the next day which is right on par for our Devs and very professional of them to do so.....we didnt however get the next patch for another week. Now while the hotfix fixed most instances of the crashes I personally were still getting a few of them, in the same places as before. Now being the mature responsible adult I am at first I mocked myself for foolishly believing they had fixed them all but at the same time I was now left waiting a week for the next round of fixes...rather than another hotfix to sort it out.

    I wouldnt expect hotfixes to be coming out each day thats just unreasonable and as close to impossible as you could come however if the patch release had been delayed a day to allow for the initial test then the hot fix would have essentially become the patch and there would have been less complaints as well none of this sort of thread.....well for the most part.

    So yes maybe a little more testing dev side could have gone into it before release but at the end of the day they were very quick to acknowledge and address positively and they also did not allow it to disrupt their schedule. This is the mark of a truly professional company in any respect let alone a software developer and should be commended rather than critiqued.

    Sit back, have a cup of tea and rest your top hat for a while :)
     
  8. Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    last week we had 2 hot fixes to sort problems out and as early access players we ARE the testers! as not everyone has the same computer or the same processors or graphics cards.
     
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  9. Sergeant Snuggles Junior Engineer

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    998
    This is one of the reasons I cant agree fully as indeed we are the testers. However do take into account that yes quite rightly not everyone has the same hardware, given the amount of people the crashes affected you cant tell me that keen would not have seen the problems themselves first had they "released" internally for testing first. Look how quickly they reproduced it and acknowledged. They know they made a mistake and in the long run its not really that big a deal but just going from the facts as released to us I feel my points are valid.

    Fair play if Keen came out and said actually we tested it internally and no problems were found then I would happily hold my hands up and say well hey well done, you tried and felt you were releasing a "ready" patch which turned out not to be but you fixed it as usual the following day. Then again how often do we get that level of communication from the Devs, again not that I am complaining, they do their job and I am more than happy to do mine :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
  10. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,890
    LOL... knickers twisting and drama... No. I'm not even going to get mad at those comments. It's just a very simple thing. Test what you code before you release it to the end users. Yes, it's alpha. But good coding practices are helpful. If they would have applied such methods for each release, we wouldn't be in the situation of "fix bug x, create bug y."

    Funny when you preface and conclude your post with disclaimers about not being a rant, people seem to ignore those words and prove how defensive and argumentative THEY actually are.
     
  11. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    Alpha has bugs. Trying to say it shouldn't be 'that buggy' is wrong. That's what Alpha stage development is for.
     
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  12. Zyfe Trainee Engineer

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    Testing never catches everything. You can test for 2 months and you still wouldn't catch every bug. This is just a software dev fact. Bugs are inevitable, and the point of "early access" is to keep updating and fixing as they go.
     
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  13. AdmObir Apprentice Engineer

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    159
    Alpha...we are the bug testers...deal with it or don't buy into a Early Access game.
     
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  14. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    Yup, you absolutely know nothing about what your talking. They cant catch everything, this isnt about "good coding practices" as they would make no difference in catching bugs or creating them. They cannot test every posibility within the game with every fix they do, they have 1.000.000 + players who brought their game who can test it and provide feedback far more efficiently and faster and can come up with the most rare and unique interactions that can generate the conditions for a bug to appear, also every computer is different which can lead to different bugs that are not experienced by everyone.


    The OP:

    This is not a rant.

    Rant.

    This is not a rant.

    Disclaimers or not, you're still ranting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
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  15. tharkus Junior Engineer

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    712
    it was time to do BUGFIXING , many of us asked of it, and now we have a bunch of bugs crushed,
    yes , as many said, when you touch the code, some new bugs can see the light, i say and know it
    as a programmer.
    PATIENCE ! please :)
     
  16. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,890
    There's a little ignorant, angry voice in your head that reads everything that's not unicorns and flowers as anger and rant. Stop trolling. Find something else to do with your time. I'm sorry that you're lonely.
     
  17. noxLP Junior Engineer

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    I have just one question: what's the bug who caused this post?
     
  18. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    I think @Ronin1973 is correct:

    Since this whole "balance" thing has started we've seen major breaking/semi-breaking bugs introduced every single patch, as well as many, many undocumented changes which make it hard to be a tester.

    I am most opposed to the lack of documentation of all changes, that's poor form for an alpha testing stage.
     
  19. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    101
    Poor dev coms, poor documentation, changes not in the patchnotes...
     
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  20. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    And then you resort to insults, kinda sad really. Is it too hard for you to admit you're wrong? Is your Ego that fragile? Does it hurt that much?

    Seriously, your "suggestion" is wrong, it is a rather ignorant point of view, far away from reality. If poiting out where you are wrong is trolling, then I feel bad for you as you seem like a person that cant discuss something.

    On the last one I can agree, but poor documentation....of what? And the comunication they do is mostly via Marek's blog.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
  21. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    If you can't answer this question yourself, you've pretty much undermined the validity of your opinion because it's evident you don't know what's going on with these patches.

    Undoc'ed changes off the top of my head:

    -Space ball sliders removed and virtual mass/real mass decoupled (not in patch notes).

    -Major changes to collision mechanics (various specific changes discussed in various parts of the forum).
     
  22. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    Arent those "changes not in the changelog"?

    I said I agree on the changes not in the changelogs, they should post every change, but then the documentation of what? Of the changelog? As in why they did what they did? Or the changes that were not mentioned (as you seem to put it)?

    Other than that It hardly has anything to do with what I posted regarding this "suggestion" anyways.
     
  23. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    There is a little chant that explains the general process of bugfixing quite nicely: 128 little bugs in the code 128 little bugs, track one down patch it around 256 little bugs in the code.
     
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  24. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Poor documentation of the patch changes. Isn't that obvious from the context of the post?

    Also, other than the wikis and other player based efforts we have no documentation of block parameters and costs.
     
  25. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    LOL... you need to find some one else to play hypocrite with Dreokor. Yes. Go back and read your posts. Better yet. Let me just put you on ignore.
     
  26. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Ah.... That's better. No more troll.
     
  27. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    It seems I hurt your Ego far too much, I feel bad for you, really.

    Redundancy it is then? "Changes not in the Patchnotes" isnt the same thing?

    The other part seems more on point and I can agree there.
     
  28. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    It's true, though; prefacing a rant with "this isn't a rant" doesn't make it any less of a rant.
     
  29. Malware Master Engineer

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    While I most certainly understand your frustration, you must understand that you are their playtester. That is what playing an early access game is. That is what you agree to when you buy an early access game. I usually compare buying an early access game to backing a game on Kickstarter, the only difference is that you get to play the game as its being developed. Unfortunately, it's in its nature that there will be a lot of bugs and unfinished features.

    What you are suggesting is appropriate for gold release products. This game is not there yet :)
     
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  30. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,890

    I concur and don't expect perfection. However, I do believe there is a level of testing anyone should do before releasing their code to any kind of audience; even in alpha. I'm not expecting extensive testing and permutations, but a cursory test of all major systems to see if they've broken them. Eight hours of normal gameplay with 20 volunteers would go a long way in discovering any new bugs generated by the fixes. This would add two days to an arbitrary schedule. But the cost would basically be nil. They may even bring down costs if there are any associated with Steam delivering a hotfix (pushing another update).
     
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