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The way I think PVP should be done.

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by One01011, Dec 13, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    So, after much thought, I present to you my theory on how we can make everyone happy. The crowds who want no part of PVP, or 'griefing" as they call it, and those who want nothing more than to kick someone's sandcastle in. Those who want to have large scale clan battles, glorious fights, and those who want small time fighter combat. In a word, the answer is "Scrapyards," In many, read below.

    So far, there seems to be a general consensus as to spaceship combat. It should be a thing, and it will be glorious. The problem, however, lies in the fact that we can't get to capital ships slugging it out on large scale with small scale servers. You can't have peaceful mining operations on the same server you have hardcore pirates, because someone in there isn't going to have a very good time.

    Now, you can say "That's just part of the game! Pirates need someone to pirate from!" or "Those miners didn't have any intention of harming anyone, they were just playing peacefully, and the pirates had no right to destroy all of their stuff for no reason!" Next thing you know, the miners have left the server, after a while likely the game, looking for people less inclined to shoot on sight, and the pirates are now sitting there, waiting for the next poor guy to walk into their territory. (read: server) This can't happen, we can't let a community fragmented by servers that are either "Hardcore Extreme PVP" or "Sandbox no griefers pls." There exists no middle ground, as someone will have to be constantly moderating servers with only consensual combat.

    Here is where my idea comes in. Imagine a server with the only rule being no cheating. You can shoot anyone you want, back-stab, lie, cheat steal, anything you want. The problem with this is that anyone who joins, from the second they join, can be killed. One party is going to dominate the server, and anyone who says otherwise gets pounded into space dust. Then there is the issue of everyone being offline except for that one guy...
    So, what about a different approach? There is nothing wrong with the above rule set, the problem lies in the ship building aspect. "But I like my custom ships!" So bring them. That is what a "scrapyard" would be. A server hosted, either privately or by our devs, (thanks for the game, guys!) that allows us to bring our ship from our server, as it is on our server, into said scrapyard. Here, we would find many, many wrecks. Some generated by the server, some player wrecks. The goal of this server is to allow people to bring their biggest, best, most powerful ships into combat, knowing full well they can be destroyed, but also with the knowledge that some time spent salvaging the wrecks there could pay for the ship twice.

    This would work by the players building their own 'jump gate' or 'mass driver' or even a module on the ship itself, whatever we manage to nail down as the method of transport that isn't too far off in the future. There, they would find a server browser, or some such similar interface, that allows them to select the coordinates, or server, that they want to go to. The jump gate would load the active ship, cut and paste it into the server, and once everyone is nice and ready and loaded, drop them onto the battlefield. Here, they can interact with anyone else there, shooting as they please, and when they're ready to leave, assuming there is anything left of them, a timer starts and at the end, they get spit back out on their server, any damage taken to their ship still there, along with any loot.

    The persistent feel of the game is there, the knowledge that anyone who was there was expecting a fight is there, the reward is there, and most of all, the PVP experience that started this whole argument is there. Of course, there can be softcore servers where any damage taken is not carried over when one leaves, or something in-between where anything short of full-ship destruction is sustained, leaving a battered hull of a ship instead of a hunk of twisted metal, or nothing at all. Also, any players playing on the sandbox mode won't have access to the full on version, seeing as every player ship there was made from minerals mined themselves, instead of just copied and pasted.

    In summery, grand PVP battles and relaxing mining operations aren't mutually exclusive. We can have grand armadas duking it out without the risk of them rampaging over anyone just looking to build a nice base. If combat is what you play for, there can be plenty. If you seek a social ship building experience, who am I to judge? There exists a way to make everyone happy, so give one side the short end of the stick?

    Questions?

    Q: "Jump drives/gates/what have you are way out of our league! How can we have a lore-friendly way to get around?"

    A: At the moment, we have small, portable gravity generators. This means that there's been a few years since the development of such tech, and since gravity generation pretty much results in the warping of spacetime, we're half way there already.

    Sources: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ideachev.html#alcub
    http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/gravity-affect-time-space


    Q: "But I don't want to lose my ship! :confused: "
    A: You don't have to! There can be instances of scrapyard servers where any damage isn't permanent, or only to a certain extent! This will mean reduced rewards, however.

    Q: "Who is going to host these?!"

    A: It can either be Keen Software House, or us, if they don't want to have official servers up.
    Q: "You said small ships could have fun too! Won't these just be full of gigantic ships and gigantic ships only?"

    A: Some scrap yard servers could have mass limits, only anything size X and below can jump in.
    Q: "Won't there just be some giant fleet of battleships spawned in from creative mode everywhere?"
    A: No ships from servers that are on, or were ever on creative mode would be allowed on to these scrap yards, at least the hardcore/mediumcore ones.
    Q: "I like your idea, but where do we go from here?"
    A: Honestly, I have no idea. I think your best bet of supporting this idea is to comment, show your support, maybe mail them if you're feeling particularly annoying, but for the most part, just make this a threadnaught. Show interest, and make your voice be heard.




    TL;DR:

    Read it all, I worked hard on it >:c
    But if you really are that lazy, imagine jumping your ship(s) onto servers with the explicit purpose of blowing up like-minded individuals over a giant field of salvage. Nobody who wasn't looking for a fight gets hurt, and nobody who was looking for a fight leaves without one.
     
  2. -arlf1sh Trainee Engineer

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    I do quite like the idea of having a warp kind of setup for transferring between servers, and having designated PvP grounds. Going around and trying to loot and run quiet salvage ops in a field of broken derelict ships would be such beautiful gameplay, with players able to set up their own bases on their own servers. Very cool!
     
  3. sober667 Trainee Engineer

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    who want be on THAT serwers when there will be no loot to take? loose your ship and no reward?
    what will be reward? (on normal serwer would u grab resousers or somethink but here?)
     
  4. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    Thing is, there will always be loot. On hardcore servers, what you take is what you get, every single mineral, and every single block of armor. On softcore servers, you wouldn't be able to take anything home, but if your ship gets obliterated, you won't lose it at when you come back.
     
  5. xenologic Trainee Engineer

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    2
    You can Ad in your post this too other point for make it perfect for me

    - if we have à net rupture in a pvp instance we could have à roll back to our owne station.

    - make gate connected to other station zone (with the autorisation of the both stations) would be fun too

    Sorry for my approximative english
     
  6. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    Mmm... *Shrug*

    I tend to think that servers will need to set up their own rules. It shouldn't be on KSH to develop something that we can set up ourselves.
     
  7. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    I think the servers should just be left as sandboxes and let the game naturally develop within. Then of course individual servers can add and change their own rules using mods to nudge it in the directions they want.
     
  8. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    I would be perfectly okay with this being a mod if we got the support necessary to host a few of these servers, set up the plugins, and get the server to server networking working. I just hope it becomes a popular enough idea to allow people to get fights when they want them instead of all forms of PVP being limited to the server they're on.
     
  9. Thenerdylord Apprentice Engineer

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    I love this topic. Where has it been all my life.
     
  10. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    I like your general idea, but I'd like to propose a variant of it, which could solve the "I don't want to lose my creations" attitudes that might prevent the scrapyard from being used.

    Make one all about blueprints. Rather than a "bring your own ship" method, start each player out in a "waiting room" sector, one with the equivalent of an automated shipyard/drydock. Load in your blueprint(s) and the ship is rapidly built. Not instantaneously though, so people with absolutely ridiculously gimongous dreadnaughts have to wait for their ship to be finished. Once the ship is complete, hop in and fly through the "warp gate" in that sector, which is your ride to the scrapyard. Once you are there, you can fight, flee, salvage, hack, whatever you want to do. Since you have a ship in the scrapyard sector now, you can come directly back in later. Have to work out how offline players can protect their ships from being looted, but... However that ends up, you can enjoy the scrapyard, without losing everything you've done in other play (creative and survival). And what goes into the scrapyard system stays in the scrapyard system. Conservation of resources, in a way. Plus, it creates a situation where a persistent group/faction could create some truly epic Frankenships by cobbling together salvage from all the different designs that present themselves.
     
  11. Jim-Jack-Saiit Trainee Engineer

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    I do see the example of hardcore pirates and peaceful miners clashing being an issue. My thought was that the server would be so large as to hide from pirates. if you wanted you could go to the far reaches of the galaxy and as long as you are inconspicuous enough, you could live in peace. Though personally I enjoy the fact that no matter where I go, there is always the chance of loosing everything. I like a challenge and it would keep the game interesting.
     
  12. Thenerdylord Apprentice Engineer

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    The only problem I see is how to stop a ship made in a creative server going in, collecting salvage, and then taking it all to a survival server.
     
  13. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    1,017
    Maybe a weight/size/class restriction system? Have to be "this big or smaller" to ride the jump gate to the scrapyard?
     
  14. Ralirashi Apprentice Engineer

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    EVE Online does things like that and......30k online...your math doesn't add up.

    You're suggesting something like WoT: build a ship (instead of buying a tank), jump onto a server (match), blow up, go back to the drawing board.
    Not sure I like that idea in a game like SE.
     
  15. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    Simply add a tag for a world that remembers if it is, or ever was on creative, and then disallow anything from that world onto the scrap yard server


    The problem with this is that anyone looking for a peaceful survival experience would be better off just making their own world/server with hamachi or whatnot and never have to worry about waking up to phallus shaped ships jammed into their space station. This would only lead to a much more fragmented community of "builders" and "griefers" and I don't think such a community would last.

    Not a bad idea, but I believe the entire point of the "I don't want to lose my ship" mentality is the effort put into reconstructing the ship. Your post does bring up the point that respawn timers should be longer for people who build at 1:1 scaled death star over someone who just made a frigate for the softcore servers, though.
     
  16. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    Thing is about EVE online, having played it for 3 years, the amount of people and scale of the game makes it pretty much impossible for any one alliance to rule the galaxy. It has high security space where people are (mostly) safe, low security space where smaller scale alliances can form up and establish themselves, and null sec, where the wars are gigantic and the politics machiavellian. Each type of space has been balanced, broken, and rebalanced for 10 years, so its going to work by now. There are systems in place (pos reinforcement) that enable people to put up a fight for their space instead of having it all blown to dust when they log on. The current say, 32 player servers could have a very big problem without any form of dictating where one can and cannot fight.
     
  17. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    Its like saying DayZ servers got overan by factions that dominated it.

    It simply didn't happen.

    One of my favorite vanilla DayZ experience was terrorising a group that had 30 regular members who tried to 'control' a small part of the map.

    I terrorised them so hard with another friend that they gave up and eventually closed their server down.
     
  18. Sims_doc Junior Engineer

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    isn't day-z the game with the medieval hacker prevention and developers will ban players for killing them and that advertise content that simply doesn't exist?

    or was that the other one, but thats an interesting methods of removing a faction from an area.
     
  19. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    you're thinking of WarZ, different game


    yeah two guys can keep hitting and disappearing over and over again over a long period of time then you're going to quickly break their members will to play in the faction and the whole thing collapses
     
  20. BigDog Trainee Engineer

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    just like in real warfare Gentry. Guerrilla tactics will always win out over conventional tactics in the long run. (in short violent wars conventional tactics play out)
     
  21. OracleTX Apprentice Engineer

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    196
    +1 for the general idea. I like the idea of keeping the sandbox-made ships and the survival-made ships separate. There will need to be more work on how to actually do the salvaging for this to make sense, but it is a good start. The only other thing I think is missing is bases. That could be a different option entirely, or the bases could be a way to arrive/depart or drop off salvage without leaving the scrapyard.
     
  22. One01011 Trainee Engineer

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    You bring up a fair point. I'm not suggesting that this be the only way, just another for some quick, meaningful fights without having to hop servers if you make too many enemies, or your station gets blown up in your sleep. At the moment, anyone looking for non-combat or consensual combat is going to get shafted. DayZ is cutthroat, the only 'real' minecraft pvp servers are anarchy, and those are ghost towns for the most part. Even if this becomes a server plugin, I'll be happy. I just want to spread the idea around and see what the community thinks.
     
  23. Thenerdylord Apprentice Engineer

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    I like the idea of taking my ship from survival to a scrapyard and then using the salvage to repair the ship on my main server.
     
  24. mazaraz Trainee Engineer

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    I really like the idea, but I think it would also be cooler if individuals set up their own servers, with their own rules and have said server designated spacial coordinate. When you travel so far you are given a warning and you transition to a new area of space (a different server) with possibly different rules or none at all.
     
  25. Hatter Apprentice Engineer

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    290
    Like has been stated before...
    I *hope* servers are kinda like minecraft.

    You do what you want.

    You can build a base?
    Mine?
    Fight?
    Etc.

    I don't want this to be a "Bring your own ship to this zone and have a fight" no, That's stupid.

    I'm hoping for a open world large PvP free for all.

    If multiplayer is any different from that I know I will not enjoy it
     
  26. Hatter Apprentice Engineer

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    290
    >double post
    >too lazy to edit first post
    Sir you play the day of the Z?
    Fancy playing together sometime?
     
  27. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    I haven't played for a while and I probably won't until the standalone, which apparently over the nerdvine is coming sooner rather than later.
     
  28. hatdudeman Trainee Engineer

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    94
    I would like to say MC is a great model for the multiplier system but well, there are a few problems. Mainly the fact that its not just you moving server to server, its your ships as well. Here is what I suggest
    there should be few types of games. 1 the single player survival/creative games (just fyi for all types things from survival cant come to creative worlds and vice versa) 2. Faction Worlds or Servers owned by a faction lets take SEAR for example.
    SEAR would have a server for their faction that would serve as their HQ. It would be private (Non members could enter if they were an enemy faction that was attacking, When factions go to war the IP's could be exchanged. What would keep em at bay is that a faction like SEAR would have build a fortress that is neigh impenetrable and I highly doubt anything that would enter their space would last long) and survival and they would run it as they wished. Using warp drives they could warp to another server of a 3rd type Multi Faction. This would be a large server rich in resources where factions would setup outposts and where trade could be done.
    Resources could be moved to one factions outpost to another where it would be then taken to the factions HQ. This would be where Piracy would be a factor as small crews of 3 guys might try to intersect trade missions of bigger factions.
    While the outpost there could be attacked this would obviously result in war with said faction and any factions that they might be allied with.
    On faction servers in MC chests and whatnot cant be opened by somebody from another faction. The only way to get the loot and destroy blocks on faction land is to kill enough people in their faction that they lose "power" which MC faction servers use to determine how much land a faction can have. We could use the same system here in space engineers. While your stuff is in faction space it cant be accessed by those out of your faction unless enough of your teammates are killed to where they can no longer control the area where your ship is docked at the time.
     
  29. hatdudeman Trainee Engineer

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    Type 5 servers could not allow PVP unless the players involved wernt part of a faction that was currently at war. This would satisfy those weaklings who lack a spine of any, well you get the idea.
    Sub types of each server types could exist to disallow profanity and what not to satisfy the prudes out there. Sadly this will allow for the existence of servers that allow neither pvp out of factions or profanity, *sigh* prude city servers it sickens me to think that my idea would allow for them to exist but for the good of this glorious game I will accept their existence.
     
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