Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Thoughts on gun size

Discussion in 'General' started by Memige, Feb 23, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Memige Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    I noticed that the majority of mods adding in new cannons and guns tend to cap at at around 200mm, with anything above that generally being called Oversized Cannons, Rail Guns, or Mass Drivers, suitable for stations and planetary defense. But even then capping at around 230-250mm.
    This seems odd to me, those bore sizes are suitable for a cruiser, not a capital ship or station. Even the Yamato Battleship sported 460mm main guns, and it had 9 of them. Not even hard mounted, those were turrets. All that firepower and it was only 263m long.

    I would have expected 400mm+ guns for capital ships. Is there some engine restriction on the size of weapons, or is there something else that I'm missing?
     
  2. Kokurokoki Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    109
    Not everyone has a beefy computer that can build 250m-long ships.

    SE gets really CPU and GPU intensive when you start building large ships.

    But in short, there shouldn't be any problems with making large-bore weapons since it's mostly an aesthetic thing. You could make the vanilla gatling guns do 6000 damage per shot while still using 25x188mm ammo by changing values in the code.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    In real life, guns with a caliber greater than 16" on naval ships rapidly become a case of diminishing returns. The superheavy AP shell on the Iowa's 16" guns met or exceeded all of the Yamato's shell's capability while being cheaper, easier to make, ship, etc. due to lower mass.

    Frankly, given how thin SE armor blocks are (2mm/side for light and 10-12mm/side for heavy), I think that 3"/76mm guns would be more appropriate. Maybe some 4" howitzers. As far as kinetic weapons go, at least.
     
  4. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    314
    IMO, anything bigger than the 200mm guns shouldn't really be turrets anymore, but more like torpedo/railgun launchers built out of the hull itself.
     
  5. Memige Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    Why though? As pointed out, most large modern warships have multi-barrel turrets with bores larger than 200mm. Heavy cruisers are classified as having 203mm guns, and battleships go beyond that. By contrast, modern torps are typically over 500mm in diameter
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Why would we use IRL naval classifications for spacecraft?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  7. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    314
    Modern? Battleships were phased out rather close after the realization that aircraft carriers were superior in every way. Granted they grizzled old guard kept a couple around till the early 90's, but they were more for show at that point and not tactically necessary anymore.

    Look at modern mechanized guns and artillery. Almost all of those are under 200mm. Like was said before, diminishing returns showed that bigger bore sizes were a waste of material.

    And yes, I am quite familiar with the size of current torpedoes having served in the Navy aboard a sub tender myself. 21inch/533mm for a fixed launch tube is more than adequate and believable. I like to think of the broadsides the Tiger Claw fired in the Wing Commander movie as being what you'd commonly see in this time period for SE.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Memige Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    I'll admit my own error in chasing after the turret straw-man, whether or not 200mm guns should be hull mounted or turrets is not really relevant, and I should not have challenged Lothos original reply.

    I would congratulate Kokurokoki for being the only one to have answered the original question, which has nothing to do with whether there should be larger guns, how they should be mounted, or if we should call a ship with 200mm guns a Cruiser, a McGuffin, or a Rhubarb Pie.

    The original question was why aren't there larger guns for larger vessels, and the answer seems to be, because vessels large enough to justify them lag down the game too much.
     
  9. russo_bolado Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    613
    250m is 100 blocks... Which is sort of demanding. But you can have a 50m Warship (20 blocks) which can be as destructive... Just up your weapon count.@Commander Rotal can enlighted you about what can be considered a "Large" Ship, after all she's known for pushing SE's limits when it comes to size.

    Regarding OP, SE is really lacking in the Weapon Departament. But this wasn't the dev's focus in the first place... Word of advice: if you want really destructive ordinance, go for PMW's.

    EDIT: wrong count.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    There have been many times where just the presence of a Iowa class BB changed the course of action. I believe they still have a place, much like the a10. A battleship with the new style AA would be an absolute beast in area superiority. But sadly they are showing their age and a refit would be expensive but not new the cost of a new ship. But again i think the newest Iowa was built in what 36?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    They were all constructed in the early 40s, latest was laid down in '42.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    My personal findings are that any ships up to about 300 meters in length are going to run fine even with interior. 50 meters less is a fairly healthy chunk less so that's going to run swimmingly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
    • Informative Informative x 3
  13. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    Ahh it was ordered in 39 but first keel laid in 40, my mistake
     
  14. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    The SE size limits make me sad, even though I knowwhy they exist. Back in starmade back in the day, even my laptop with a GT650m could run a 800m ship with 10 million blocks at 60 fps no problems. I dont think anyone has ever truly hit the limit in that game. It is much simpler though.
     
  15. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    [​IMG]

    How big are Starmade's blocks? I think i read 1 meter once, yes?

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Excuse me?

    No truly modern (ie 21st century) warship mounts guns large than 155mm in caliber. And the 155 mm guns are typically tasked with shore bombardment, not anti-shipping work.

    There are good reasons for this: guns are obsolete compared to missiles for most precision strikes at range.

    Hauling around big artillery on a big ship puts you in sweet spot range for a whole variety of ship killing nasties.

    And so it is with SE. Please build big hoking battleships. They will get taken apart in detail by strike fighters and player made missiles at a fraction of the cost.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  17. DDP-158 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,748
    I'm surprised nobody has said it yet.



    It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
  18. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    The problem with that idea is really AA. We have the tech now that missiles, and bombs are being shot of the the sky by computer controlled AA guns. Are missiles against long range targets the better option, in some cases yes, but the tech for shooting down an old school ballistics projectile isnt here yet, the speed is far too great.

    Back to SE though. In a fight missile destroyers are pretty popular, they are faster and the payload they carry is very cheap, but they are moving at a very slow speed, even the guided ones while better are locked at a certain speed. The guns how ever are not and with the mods that most people have been using for guns on battleships youll have roughly 12 seconds of time to land that missile onto my BB. This is the major limiting factor in that design, because although the stock game guns can take one maybe 2 of these out before impact, the overall power of the OKI mod is a ton stronger and would destroy all but the smallest bits in half of that time. and seeing how my small BB has 26 of these guns per side plus the ones on the bottom little to nothing would make it through, fighters as well. This give my big guns time to turn on you and basically one shot that missile boat, as long as it is in range. This takes in account of using mods for certain things and not others. A vanilla BB would be a different story, but who builds those? Again the only reason a well armed planned out BB would win this is because the speed cap in the game, if we raise the limit to say 700m/s it would still be about the same, although it would be less shooting down of the projectiles from the missile boat and more of simply missing the shots completely due to the increased speed that I can move either away from your projectile. This is because the missiles that are fired need to track the target, and at lower speeds this is possible because I am not moving from point to point quickly, but when the speed is upped you would lose from depth of field and may over shoot. I could also turn away from your projectile and move at the same speed giving the BB AA guns more time to shoot those down. And honestly it could go in your favor as well. Luck, Lag, SimSpeed, design, and awareness all play huge roles in how a fight like that would play out, where all the ships are locked at a certain speed, you really dont gain an advantage on either speed or maneuverability over a larger ship that has enough power to accelerate as quickly as you do, and I do not gain anything from a heavy armor, or range distance as anything over 1500 meters for cannons/guns I feel is OP in the areas that people play in combat wise.
     
  19. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,597
    Because Space Is An Ocean. :woot:

    I think @tankmayvin has the real answer. Beyond a certain point, premade weapons give way to PMWs, because PMWs can be scaled up as the user desires.
     
  20. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    Yes, 1m, the longest ship that was actually finished was 2.5 km x 1 km x 0.5 if I recall. Well over a hundred million blocks. But no one ever hit the limit, it just got to tedious to build the damn things. Even my 800 m took half a minute to go front to back in build mode, and had hangar space for 12 60 m corvetes, and over 60 20 m fighters.
    Here is one of the larger high quality capitals, 1.5 km, as well as a vengeance. If you want to build big starfleet ships, starmade may be for you [​IMG]
    For reference, the little blip at the top is 340m.
     
  21. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    @Lt_Duckweed Well, the Vengeance is wrongly scaled, she's actually just a little bit bigger than a Galaxy; that's about as big as Starfleet gets. But the curves... oh my.
     
  22. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    Are you saying they made it too big or too small?
     
  23. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    I'm saying the Vengeance's "official" size hinges on being twice the size of the "official" Enterprise-size, a ship that was scaled up but not changed to actual accomodate being bigger than a Galaxy Class. That 1,5km monster is impressive as all fuck but inaccurate to the canon ship.
     
  24. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    Well by all means grab the free demo and show them what for :0
     
  25. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    @Lt_Duckweed I was kinda surprised that there even IS a free demo. I've got plans for SE, i'm not really planning to switch anytime soon unless Marek keeps fucking with it.

    Actually Marek fucking with glass and ore is kinda like Abrams fucking with ship sizes...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  26. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    Just keep it in mind, it can't replace se in the graphics and realism category, but you can make some bomb ass huge ships with sick weapons, + the rotors/hinges don't explode.
     
  27. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    If there was a button to disable realism in SE i'd do the following:

    [​IMG]

    And frankly SE doesn't really look all that impressive. Planets are nice but the ships are just all kinds of Meh doe to the block system.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  28. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    I'd love to see a mod do some real Capital Weaponry. Cannons can be bigger than 200mm. Well.. in SciFi terms:

    [​IMG]
    http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naval_Autocannon

    To translate that to SE terms. Imagine firing a shell at a ship that is 1,200,000kg to 9,000,000kg and its disabled or destroyed in a single hit. That's what a NAC/40 is capable of.. course what can take that sort of punishment? Heavily armored 1-2KM long ships (400-800 blocks long). But not from sustained blasts obviously. The weapon itself has a mass of 4,500,000 on its own. The shells are 1,200kg each.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  29. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    And people tell me i'm going overboard. Iirc that's almost the weight of a Galaxy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. PurrfectBlinky Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    26
    The restriction of the ships is mostly up to the engine optimisation. It is a design choice aswell for Keen to keep ships small enough to not tank your server. This is also the reasoning behind not having small ship glass or doors. They want fighters and corvettes, not capital ships as those are way too taxing! ;)
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.