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Tiers To Nowhere That Contain Nothing

Discussion in 'General' started by Pyronymer, Dec 4, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. StanH Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    73
    It would have been nice if the higher tier tools were actually a challenge to make. I'm playing on easy start planets, and got a small amount of platinum from the pirate base near start that I could use to make the tier 4 tools immediately. Anyone with a little bit of spare material can make any of the tiers. It took me only a minute to make it. The resources needed for a T4 tool are truly nothing compared to what we usually collect in order to build a spaceship, and currently this update is nothing more than a x4 multiplier for pretty much anyone.

    I'm not against tiers - but they should be a lot of work to create. This could be done in different ways:

    - Higher tiers requiring special items or blueprints that need to be found in the world (pirate bases, npc ships, ruins or derelict ships on planets ...?)
    - Special machines in order to process the materials necessary for higher tier items

    In Minecraft, the best weapons would need a lot of xp to enchant (and many tries to get it right), but in SE we don't have that many mechanics to play with. Perhaps they could add extremely rare diamonds, found randomly while mining? :D

    Anyone has other ideas?
     
  2. Kingfishercritic Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    108
    I'd like to see the weapons developed a bit further and renamed. I'd also like to see the base Item be one of the components for the higher tiers. For weapons, the "tiers" should be instead changed to mods. For rapid fire, you could change it to "____ with open bolt". For accuracy, it could be "____ with match ammunition or ____ with enhanced barrel rifling" and so on and so forth. Current weapon tier system makes little sense in a realistic sense
     
  3. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    437
    It's also something they have been asked for specifically in the past.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Memphis Apprentice Engineer

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    145
    I get the point of the OP but the problem is that there are only 4 tools. I'm curious what extra functionality would be added to a grinder other than "do it faster and with greater reach." To flesh out the tool tiers, we would need more tools. What other tools would really help us through the "mid-game" and "late-game"? Personal weapons don't really help (but they are fun) cause combat in SE is more Ship on Ship, not person vs well, anything (I guess spiders). People have suggested things like a personal refinery or assembler in the forums, but to me that sounds silly, I mean refining uranium on my body....that's just off for me. Maybe a personal ore detector but that take functionality away from the drill, eh maybe. To really make the OP's suggestion work we would need more variety (not a bad thing) but at the end of the day, the main tasks performed are grinding, welding, and drilling, so it's kinda natural that they design the game to make those better with teirs.
     
  5. AdmObir Apprentice Engineer

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    159

    Agreed...I'd also like to see different types of drills. Personally I would like to see a type of drill that is useful for planing, creating a smooth surface (extremely useful for planets, imo.) It would not be very useful for extracting materials (hell, I would care less if you could actually get ANY materials with it), but would be very effective at smoothing out terrain. I would just love to see more tools for terraforming.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    Weapon 'tiers' make little sense.....but weapon variations are how I expect it will end up. Or at least... I hope!

    An assault rifle...a shotgun...a sniper rifle ... and maybe a grenade launcher that throws a small exposive charge. then you get different models, different uses and different play styles. I messed about with weapons for a bit but couldn;t see the point in modidng them as you could only have 1 weapon in game....now perhaps we can have more.

    Tools...well...I don't know. You can improve efficiency and make them drill faster or gather more ore .... but I also think they would be more fun if they worked in different gameplay mechanics with 'upgrade' tools.

    Make a hand drill that has inventory space and gathers ore itself like the ship ones do. That would be Tier 2,as you have added an upgrade module. then you increase the ore detection range as you fit a better module there for tier 3. Finally...tier 4 takes all that and adds the 'right click' option which the other drills lacked.

    Alternatively...you look at ways of specialising drills. Every 'benefit' should have a restriction.

    Maybe the inventory drill adds total weight to your character, which prevents you moving in 1G. Maybe you need a certain level of drill to detect certain ores. Maybe you need certain tier of drill to drill a particular mineral, althugh that is pretty silly really.

    Whatever they do...I would certianly hope it isn't just a case of a tier 2 drilling/grinding or welding more/faster than a tier 1. That would be dull
     
  7. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,411
    This exactly. The game needs to add new elements to gameplay if its going to have tiered weapons, instead of each weapon just being the same as the last one with better numbers.

    My idea:
    So if the game wants us to be able to play in tiers, maybe they should go down the "unlockable" path. A basic engineer starts with basic building blocks. Grinding down new blocks from an enemy vessel unlocks that block. The unlocked building blocks would be stored in your suits database and would be lost if your character cannot respawn if permadeath is on. Maybe add another layer on that with some parts that are too complex to be built by the assembler and must be harvested from ships/stations. This would provide the game with a component that holds actual value, since late game you essentially have more material surplus than you will ever use.

    There need to be more guns in the game with different purposes and the guns should be modifiable instead of tiered. The availability of material and expected combat scenarios should mostly dictate the TYPE of weapon built, then, to a lesser degree, how its modified.
    What we need:
    Shotgun - low range, good for close-range engagements.
    Rocket Launcher - great damage, slow reload, ammo and launcher take up a lot of space. Good against vehicles
    Long rifle chassis - Modifiable to be anything from a sniper rifle to automatic combat rifle. Mods with affect stats
    Sub Machine Gun (SMG) chassis - Modifiable, lighter weight/volume than long rifle at the cost of being less effective at range.
    Machine gun chassis - Big machine gun. Think the M249. Modifiable, heavy, bullet hose.
    hand gun - light/small, modifiable, low capacity.

    As for grinders/welders I propose a 2 tool system instead
    Grinder 1 - slower, retrieves all components
    Grinder 2 - fast, destroys many components in the process

    Welder 1 - fast, can only weld basic metal components (armor, interior blocks, catwalks)
    Welder 2 (torch) - can weld AND solder, meaning it is slower, but can assemble complex electronics.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Tools cant be made expensive without ending absurd compated to other ship blocks. We will never go anywere on that way.

    So if tools will always be easy to get in large amounts (in more or less time) then why not focus on the item itself?
    Lets add durability that wears out as you use the tool. This way how many tools you have or find as loot do matter. No longer you will equip a welder and grinder and forget about it forever, that only devalues it and is more realistic.
     
  9. ChoMar Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    93
    Im completely lost on the Tier concept, especially with it being the "personal" tools. I always, even and especially on DS with the hardest settings, used my Handtools only at the beginning, to build ships to weld, grind and mine with them. And, maybe, sometimes i used them to fix something small where getting my welding ship over would be too much work, aka "laziness".

    So, you could adept this "tiered" stuff to Ships, as well, but what for? They could nerf the Standart-Shiptools. And make the better ones more expensive.
    What would be a MUCH more powerfull and usefull tiering would be the Ships Components, like Engines that are stronger, reactors with a higher output, Ore Detectors and Antennas with a greater range, lighter, faster gyros (lights that emit light) and stuff like that.

    But - and i think this is important - this is not Minecraft. You use Ships for most tasks. I think a good player has his basic planetary miner, welder and grinder ships set up after one or two hours of gameplay. Even if it takes you 8 hours, thats still the "early game" in SE. Getting the most high-end welder and not using it for 95% of the game is kinda lame.
     
  10. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    I understand this is just an easy implementation

    but its still a pretty poor implementation of a meh idea
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Starforge Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    66
    I like the variation being potentially introduced... I.e. They may replace these with things like sniper rifles, shotguns, etc (and should imo)... But I'm inclined to be wary of any tier system. Just seems like it's adding unneeded complications on top of the current game. Yes, they are not needed.

    Could it work? Maybe, but it will be much harder to balance that into gameplay then just having different types of tools/weapons.

    I say keep adding variation, but throw out any sort of tier progression. The focus on this game is to engineer stuff from the stuff you have on hand.

    Picture this, you see a wonderful blueprint of a ship on the workshop. Yay! It's survival ready...yay! You get the projector up in the game so you can start building it... Then get to the thrusters...Wait they are using tier 3 thrusters for it? I can't build those yet... I don't have the platinum. I can't get to space yet, so I'm screwed. Ok, replace them with tier 2 thrusters... The thing won't get off the ground now because those are not powerful enough!

    Some people might say yes they like that because it adds more challenge etc. But what if more systems on that ship were like that too? Certainly you just realize, ok, I can't build that yet... But that could get pretty frustrating quick. Think about how many variations they would have to balance then!

    I'd advise Keen to just get the rest of this working right before even thinking of adding complexity like this to the game. I'm not even sure it would work well in terms of gameplay.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    237
    "Tiers to nowhere that contain nothing"

    Wow, can you be a little more negative? You yourself even admit that each tier is 10% better than the last or so. I think it's pretty clear that rather than completely flesh out and introduce all kinds of new things that they want to take baby steps with this and see what the community thinks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,214
    the next tier tool should have to use the lower tier tool instead of making an entire new one. Otherwise there is no reason for the middle tier ones, everybody will jump to the elite tools
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    Since KEEN's ultimate purpose in adding tool tiers is still unknown, I fired up my crystal ball to see if I could pin down some specifics. It turns out the tiered tools are phase 1 for gating content and providing progression in campaign mode. Certain blocks will be immune to low tier grinders/drills, and these will be used to restrict players' actions at key points in a campaign (e.g: space prison). Also, space suits will get an accessory slot so we can equip one item on our hands and one on our suit (not what I had in mind for suits, so I'll still push for multiple suits and suit modules). Some tools/weapons will synergize with specific accessories; I saw a hand-held minigun that required an equipped ammo pack for continuous feed. Campaign mode is going to kick ass.

    In other words, tool tiers are pretty pointless in survival and free-play modes because they're designed for scenarios and campaign mode.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,411
    Illuminati confirmed.
     
  16. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    1,012
    Personally I hate the whole idea of artificial tiers and skills and xp, so very tired of RPG grindfest. It seems like the minute I find a good survival game and put money into it they start adding this crap.

    I can see them being added as a way of proof of concept for mod support and being as the hand tools it's pretty benign; they become pretty pointless after your first ships are built anyway. I hope they don't carry this over into ship parts. Certainly not as the default.

    I am for more/different weapons, not as tiers though, as for different purposes and with different strengths and weaknesses. So sniper rifle, rocket launcher, pistol, SMG maybe. K.I.S.S. This is mostly about spaceships. As for tools, ones with different purposes, but right now I can't think of any handheld tools that I've thought hey I need this (except maybe a paintgun and a laser target designator).

    More spaceship weapons for sure. Again not in tiers. There should be trade-offs. Things that are situationaly better or worse than others.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Braethias Apprentice Engineer

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    181
    Minecraft has tiers. Every FPS that isn't counterstrike has tiers. Every RPG has tiers. Terraria has tiers. Real life cars have tiers. Racing games have tiers. In fact, I can't think of any genre that isn't like... bejeweled that doesn't.

    I for one, like the idea. The freebie starter stuff is working, but you want to mine a bigger hole? Get a better drill. a piece of shoe standard issue welder isn't nearly as awesome as your custom built one of a kind (ahem) welder. Sure, drill blocks are useless in creative, but they're still there. Just because you don't see the use in them doesn't mean they don't have uses at all.

    @Krougal, try hacking a ship with coded defenses with a piece of shoe grinder, where you've got 2 minutes to find and disable the timer block to keep the thing from splattering you on the back wall with a grinder that takes 40 seconds to cut out a hole in heavy armor. And 2 layers of it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. Galaxian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    191
    Alright, I think we've done enough complaining about the current state of the tiers. Not to mention they WERE just added, so we can likely expect further plans that they already had in store...

    The community did ask for this to be added meaning that Keen is listening to us for ways to improve it now more than likely, so shouldn't we get started with suggestions to improve the concept? Yes, by this thread having an OVERWHELMING ratio of likes to dislikes, they're probably aware that many don't like the current implementation. That message is across now - But what do we want to replace it with? We might want to move to the discussion board but really, drop ideas to make it more of a gameplay improvement instead of the "MMO Grind" that we want to avoid. That and we might want to cover ships too since that's probably next on the agenda for a 'tier' system.

    Their AR variants? Honestly we could put both of them in "tier 2" as an SMG/LMG and marksman rifle for one, the suggestions board has a good thread on it. But what could we do for the rest, exactly? That is the question we should both be asking, AND answering. That way we can nudge the feature into the right direction.
     
  19. DivineWrath Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    531
    I don't know what the devs are thinking, but this isn't quite Minecraft. Minecraft worked a bit differently. 1. Everything was on a personal scale. At no point do you find yourself considering if it is a better idea to make a pickaxe for mining, or make a ship to do that mining. 2. Stuff wore out. You were always hungry for more materials. In fact, some stuff would wear out faster than you could find the materials needed to make them, so you would do well to save tools until you needed them. 3. Minecraft had absurd inventory capacity. I mean like over 100x over what we get in this game. You will spend quite a while digging stuff before you need to leave for any reason. You are not running back and forth frequently because you had a small inventory space. You had enough room in your inventory that you could easily carry everything you need to make a half decent base anywhere in the world.

    No. A tiered system isn't going to do it for me. I was sold on ship designing, not that I might someday end up with a +2 vs stone drill (or insert any other geek reference). If you want me to be interested in hand tools, I'm going to need a larger variety of tools, not tiers. Right now, there are only 3 tiers for me: hand held tools, small ship tools, and large ship tools. Everything that you can do, a ship can do better...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,130
    Did anyone else notice that for the last few weeks the hand drill and drilling in general had that delay before the drop of materials? As far as i can tell, that hasn't been fixed...or has it, with this tier system. I don't have platinum yet so I can only make tier 3 drill and I did and when I tried it out, it worked exactly like the drill used to work before that "delay bug" happened. Hmmm. Did they just make the basic one worse and let us get used to it and then add the tier system to make it work like it did? Seems fishy to me.
     
  21. PsicoPato Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,097
    have you tryed the basic hand drill again?

    because the only diference i noticed between all levels of drills is the ammount of minerals they generate when mining, but they all mine in the same speed.
     
  22. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    @Krougal, try hacking a ship with coded defenses with a piece of shoe grinder, where you've got 2 minutes to find and disable the timer block to keep the thing from splattering you on the back wall with a grinder that takes 40 seconds to cut out a hole in heavy armor. And 2 layers of it.[/QUOTE]

    What? You think that should be easy? And if it should be easier, then why bother with 4 seperate grinders where only the last has a chance of it. Not to mention there's already settings for grind speed. When the focus of the game is on building and flying ships then the other elements don't need to be full of cumbersome details. Now a specialized hacking tool? That might be something worthwhile. But that would require more creativity, tiers are the lazy designers way out.

    It's senseless because of the trivial amount of resources needed for tools. Being as you already need a lot of the rare materials to make needed ship parts, you either have them or you don't. I play in 1-1-1 survival and even after a few days of playing my current game I don't have enough Pt to make more thrusters than the 12 from the banana boat and 1 little deposit that was enough to make a couple small ships. But upgrading the handtools would be trivial. It's also pretty moot since I've got ship mounted tools.

    Making any reasonable amount of difficulty in upgrading them would make the game more about them, which it doesn't need to be. And of course to encourage you to use the better stuff then likely there will come nerfs to the default or the top tier ones just become god-mode tools. The tedium of doing things by hand on 1-1-1 makes the focus about building better and more efficient ships to get things done. Why bother when you can have god-mode tools though?

    Back to my survival game example though, so I can build hydrogen engines without Pt. I've got plenty of ice, of course Hydrogen burns up pretty fast, but it's still an option at least. The different engines are a prime example of the kind of approach I like to see. No 1 is a clear tier above or below the other. They are situationally useful. The Hydrogen is more powerful, yet cheaper to build, but otoh requires fuel and fuel infrastructure. So using Ions vs H is a choice that has tradeoffs. Large or small is another tradeoff. There are advantages and drawbacks to each.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  23. waterlimon Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,499
    Progress works for ships because building more complex ships is the very core of space engineers. Building a better welding ship creates a better experience in itself, not because you now can weld stuff faster (thats just the motivator).

    Progress for tools adds very little. It adds motivation to find all the ores. Except we never lacked that so youre left with nothing really...
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  24. Oselotti Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    837
    Perhaps the best tier items should need a new factory. So the ultimate tools are not that easy to get.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Pyronymer Apprentice Engineer

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    153
    No. Just. No.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  26. Pyronymer Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    153
    If the only game play concept you can put together for the next tier of say, grinder, is "same thing, basically same visual assets, but incrementally better and more expensive" then it simply doesn't need another tier.

    Tiers could be used exclusively to gate new functionality/options. Just because you got a perfectly functional grinder in tier 1 that does everything you would ever need a hand grinder to do doesn't mean that tier 2-4 need to even HAVE hand grinders in them, they can just introduce other stuff, like a hand long range radar tool or a hand info war tool to take over blocks/mess with radio with or whatever the hell more advanced game elements maybe one day get introduced.

    A large part of the point of this being that you don't in any way shape or form actually NEED 4 tiers of incremental but otherwise identical grinders in order to justify introducing your long range radar tool at tier 3. You CAN just introduce your grinder at tier 1, your grenade launcher at tier 2, your hand held long range radar tool at tier 3, and your personal suit jump drive (what would be the point?) at tier 4. Not every thing needs an incremental version at every tier. They don't even need an incremental version at ANY other tier.
     
  27. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    I agree that tiers should have some additional functionality other than just a numbers boost.
    How about adding inventory space to high tier hand tools? It would be a boost that would be noticeable outside of just increasing its effectiveness.
    I'm not too sure area of effect would be that good on hand tools, I use the hand grinder and welder to do awkward bits my construction ships can't reach where precision is needed. Maybe one tier could do this but not all of them.
    There is so much variation that could be done with hand tools. A grinder for hacking faster, one that can recover power cells or one that can remove trees. A welder that can carry an extra supply of steel plates, or have a speed boost on certain block types and a nerf on others. For example, an armour welder which does armour at double speed but everything else slower. You could have a drill that does square holes, or only removes stone leaving ore veins intact.
    Disclaimer: These ideas may suck.

    But no, we got a numerical boost with each tier. When everybody is using ships anyway, which provide a tier system on thier own. Hand tools < Small ship < Large ship.
     
  28. Pyronymer Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    153
    I'm seeing a lot of suggestions that tool tiers would magically become fine if only the next tier required the prior tier as an ingredient.

    This is... a terrible idea. The costs involved are too small, the (at least intended) tiered nature of resource access and scales involved pretty much ensures that if you can make the top tier tool... you can make not only any number of it, but also any number of lower tiered versions.

    Making lower tier tools a required ingredient fixes and achieves nothing in the way of preventing tier bypassing or whatever, it just adds several clicks and a few extra seconds of wait time before you "skip" to a top tier tool each time you respawn.

    And needless additional clicking that doesn't deliver useful gameplay outcomes is a bad thing.

    In other news. Making tools "valuable" in cost? And therefore of relatively HUGE cost ultimately comparable to entire ships in order to achieve that end? Also a bad idea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. Jas Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    443
    i dont think 1kg of Au or Pt is a too little cost when you will lose several or even if you will not lose any or the cost is higher where is the gameplay improvement? if you think they are cheap then just trash some ingots when you make one ... why people began to build fantasy castles in their minds after the last update? i didnt see so much complaining when they added production modules.
    The direction i see in the game balance (but i can be wrong maybe) is an unpredictable (sometimes) or unaviodable loss or waste of resources from time to time doing several things, like losing tool, crashing ships, scrapping batteries (bute there are merge blocks to relocate batteries without scrapping them) and more will come i hope, so where is the point complaining about tiered tools cost, tiered tools in general or even energy generation when even there will be mods that will alter balance?
    p.s.: and for realism: what about making a tool you will hold in one hand using 10kg of platinum that need very long time to refine? i think there is nothing wrong with those tools, and please, please, keep in mind they are just hand-tools!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  30. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    671
    The more I look at it the more Im starting to think tool tiers need to be more involved with space suit itself, becoming both of it items you equip in a gear or inventory screen. Or better yet, make the suit (or suits) have its own slots for gear.

    That way you can make higer tier tools use lot more energy, wich is supplied using better suit batteries you can build, or having a grinder that outputs items into a big backpack you need to equip too so you increase inventory limit but only for components use.
    Or have the high RoF gun need an ammo backpack while other guns use real clips that need to be reloaded.
    Also make the jetpack an equipable tiered item. And have extra fuel tanks you equip to increase flight time at the expense of room for other gear.
    Creation of real options in what you want or need to equip for whatever task you want to do.

    With a system like that creating sinergy between tool tiers and suit gear, having tool tiers would add more to the game.
     
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