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To Keen: the main reason people quit this game in the past and in the future

Discussion in 'General' started by lightzy, Mar 25, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    914
    I refer this quote to the "table flip a chess game" post, above. The Game of Chess is designed to have pieces not glued to the table. The board is not glued down either. So- the mechanics allow for the board to be flung up in the air. It doesnt even have to be anyone playing the game that can flip it.

    simlarly, the game of paddycackes allows me to reach up and grab your larynx and choke you out. or slap you in the face for a lul midgame.

    No- we do not shift the blame off of bad behavior to game design. How dare you, sir.

    A funny thing about trollbashing, and the trolls and backers of trolls trying hard to defend them is:
    [Apple is substitute for another, less family friendly moniker]

    A player is being an Apple.
    He brags in game about the Apple thing he just did. Seeking- I dunno.. "Apple Points"
    Other players condemn him for being an Apple.
    The Apple says he has the right to play how he wants to- which happens to be Apple-ish.
    Popular opinion of all involved agree that he is being an Apple.
    We list in detail when, where, why and how all things he does and is defines an Apple.
    The logic is undeniable. There is playing the game with others, then there is being an Apple.
    Now the Apple is upset because he doesnt want to look at himself in the mirror and see an Apple.
    He tries to deny being an Apple but the knowledge of himself begins to rot inside him.
    The Apple is mad everyone sees him as an Apple now.
    Everyone now knows, and tells every new guy: "That guy? total Apple."
    The Apple finds it hard to find friends. or victims. Or.. anyone.
    The Apple doent like having to play alone. so very alone.
    We tell him "your welcome to make friends with other Apples"
    He hates that idea- they are all total Apples.
    The Apple gets hunted and bullied in game.
    The Apples loses his battlecruiser while logged off.
    No one feels bad for the Apple.
    The Apple finds it unfair we all help each other and at least sympathies when anyone else loses everything and has to start over (I myself offer jump tows to restarters old bases)
    But not for the Apple.
    No one cares if the Apple is having a bad time.
    The Apple doesnt understand small group dynamics... "Playground rules"
    Apples rarely do.
     
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  2. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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  3. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    -Nope you cant actually choke people in paddycake. If that happens, call a cop. I'm sorry if you had this experience irl.

    -It seems like you want to play chess in a dodgeball arena, and get mad when a ball hits the board.

    -Bash/berate/ostracize/ban/whatever to trolls and griefers. They deserve the fruits of their actions. However, do not blame them for combat - just because it is not combat you approve.
    If you dont want combat, make a creative server. If you want your 'limited version of fair combat', then you better publish your rules... And be prepared with an IT team to enforce those rules, monitor the players, and IP ban anyone that isn't living up to your utopian vision...

    But in the end, the game allows it. Deal with it or maybe play online chess?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  4. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,177
    you're a funny guy - but you don't really respond at all to the points - maybe deal with the points being brought up or write in a diary where noone is able to contradict you?
     
  5. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    54
    I'm sorry... Deal with ALL the issues with multiplayer PVP in SE? I'm not a game dev. Can't do that.
    However, Xocliw just kinda touched on it in the latest stream... Seemed like the answer he had was 'griefers will always find a way...'

    So again, the answer seems to be 'less ways' ? Again. If you dont like the way people are playing - you need to make it impossible for people to play it.

    Chess: If you are mad that an opponent uses his queen too much, you need to either: 1) Git Gud with countering queens or 2) remove queens prior to game

    'Victim Gamers' usually just are mad that they lost.

    Questions: Do you feel extra good or extra bad when you kill a 'griefer' ? How do you feel when they come at you again after dying? How do you feel when they connect to the server and when they leave? How would you feel with absolutely no opponents?
    These are serious questions - and might give some insight...
     
  6. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,177
    Maybe just stop twisting the words, friend. You're supposed to answer to the points made in this thread - don't worry, no one is expecting you to be part of a game team, dev or otherwise.

    Of course griefers will always find a way. They are a resourceful people, dedicated to being dickish. That's not the point and that's why your chess analogy, while being elegant, is flawed. Chess is pure PVP. It's not a sandbox game, it's not a "survival" game, it's not a PVE game. And yes, PVP is intended in Space Engineers. There are weapons for a reason. I've met plenty of pirate factions, I've been known to enforce my claims on a spot with weapons at times in Space Engineers. It was to protect my stuff, it was to help others, it was to get myself more stuff for building. Sure, destroying other stuff made by other players solely for the reason of making others feel bad is possible. But it's not the intention of the game. I'm not mad at people that grief my things. I am disgusted. Griefers are not PVP players. They are trolls. I've been maintaining a really good connection with some of my worst enemies in Space Engineers. Because they know how to behave properly.
     
  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,544
    Listen, and understand. Those griefers are out there. They can’t be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
     
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  8. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,803
    Think this thread has gotten enough play time.
    This is something that is hard to control and the best we can do is try to deal with it, as said a few times in posts above this type of thing is in just about every multiplayer game out there.
     
  9. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    1,000
    imo, this kind of problems are very easy to solved and some good Veterans already shared the best solution in > Play in good server, PVP or PVE or Peaceful creative/survival with a good admin. :tu:

    @lightzy
    Sorry late reply but :
    I will read if a member used the report button :)
    if no reports = I may not see this discussion very fast.
     
  10. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    413
    At minimum, survival needs some sort of offline protection. Something a like a safe zone automatically placed around a station when all members of it's faction is offline.

    Marek did mention that he wanted to do a specialized PvP mode at some point. A dedicated combat mode could draw the more violent players away from survival.
     
  11. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,406
    The real question, which is not so easy to answer or dismiss.... is the original premise of this thread accurate?

    Are griefers the main reason people quit the game? or is it just the persistent irritating bugs, or the lack of 'gameplay content' for those who lack imagination and need such things to be provided in meals-ready-to-eat format? Given that multiplayer itself is evidently a minority interest in Space Engineers, I suspect that overall, griefers are not really that big a deal, and having downloaded and analysed some of the world files of the official servers prior to the last major update, there were plenty of amazing builds without any turrets or defence systems.

    There's no doubt that the questionable decision to have new players spawn so close to existing ones has caused many problems, and probably many ragequits and reversions to single player, but even if it's not fixed will it have lasting impact on player counts other than on Keen's own servers? I suspect not.
     
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  12. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    54
    So many good suggestions. Increasing spawn distance, offline protection (or 'freezing'). Or as Dan2D3D suggested for the present...

    I would add: Specialized PvP mode that has a 'no combat' or 'damage-free' zone, a 'wild west' zone and a 'faction combat only' zone. Maybe select a planet and zone around the planet for each.
    Earth and Moon - Peace zone. weapons/warheads dont work. Grinders/drills only on your own grids. Factions must be selected upon spawn.
    Planet X- Faction War, you must be accepted as part of a faction. Teamkilling or undeclared war on another faction = removal to wild west area
    Planet Y - Wild West, make this planet so inaccessible, it cannot be reached by less than 1000 jumps at full charge. These players all begin at random planet/moon/asteroid spots when the server zaps them here.

    Not enforced by humans, but by the actual server settings.
     
  13. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    914
    The big misunderstanding is that player versus player combat and confrontations are not what we call griefing/trolling. These always seem to be glommed together.

    I'm all for a player swooping in on my moon base, declaring the moon his all his, and opening an attack on me. Or even opening fire on me because my ship was blue, and his team was red. I can respect that- he did it to my face. Indeed, there are weapons in this game just for that sort of thing.

    Thats not at all what the griefing problem is. Thats not at all what were talking about. This part needs to be made very clear.

    Griefers dont want combat. They dont want a fight. They want only to piss off you- the other player behind the other keyboard. And they do it in the most cowardly, underhanded ways possible- they abuse and exploit game mechanics simply to avoid any sort of challenge. They sabotage you in your sleep. They leave you nothing but a blank respawn screen to start over with. They prey specifically on those who have no way of even returning fire. And they do it for the dark glee they get reading all the angry chat text and savor the rage quits- they throw a party if someone declares they are uninstalling the game and never playing again. The fearful posts in this forum of "thats why I never spend a moment in multiplayer" warms their tumorous insides with joy. They are the sociopathic scum of internet gaming.

    Stop calling player versus player combat/faction warfare/etc trolling. Its not even close to the matter.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  14. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,625
    Indeed. There's a huge difference between fair combat where each part actually have a chance of defending themselves - however slim, even if it means attempted escape, and attacking a base or ship when noone is online to defend it. Nobody can stay online 24/7 and this isn't real warfare, it's a game. Making sure the opponent actually has a chance, that's what I mean by fair play. Again, it's a game, it's supposed to be enjoyable for everyone involved. Logging on to find everything you've built being torn to shreds while you were gone, that's not enjoyable for anyone and you really cannot defend yourself against that.
     
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  15. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    In my considerable experience, griefing is definitely the #1 reason people flat out quit the game. The #2 reason afaik is boredom/a new shiny game came out.

    Quality of admin support is the key anti-grief strategy. Servers that had griefing occur regularly suddenly cleaned up as soon as a 5 star was always logged on. Unfortunately, that is way to labour intensive. On the bright side there are many recovery tools available to the admin team to fix problems such that everything is recoverable within an auto-save period. Problem is people will ragequit never to be seen again when told it may take half an hour for the admin to download an autosave, load it up solo, find the relevant grids, blueprint them, and return to paste them onto the server again. That is a separate issue I am fine with considering the player(s) should have bp'd their stuff to begin with.

    The recent influx of griefing is so problematic because of how easy and fast it now is. It's not worth the time of admins to recover your lost starter ship, 2 batteries an assembler and refinery. Especially when you're one among several in the same boat. This is all KSH fault. Their inexperience with game design just gets more obvious with every new iteration. When people complained that they couldn't find anyone because the world was so massive they didn't mean 'please drop everyone on top of me within 4km', they meant 'make detecting others easier because the default vision distances are meager at best'. It's like they forgot the whole faction mechanic means people who want friends can get them easily enough already.

    Two solutions I see to fixing this griefing issue:
    1) Remove the spawning on top of current players mechanic. It's just plain bad,
    2) Add an escalating timer to the respawn mechanic and add a base cost to respawn (points, high energy, component, something). Concepts already brought up by Xocliw etc on the support site, but I think Marek doesn't want an express lose condition possible for some reason.

    After that any griefing is pretty much manageable by good admins on servers with express rules that declare all unwanted behaviour bad for those with the 'if I can, it should be okay' mentality.
     
  16. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    521
    I've been trying to catch up on current practices in table-top role-playing games, and it's been striking to me how things have shifted from the 80s, when many people assumed an RPG rules system was intended to cover all possibilities; the "simulationists" were still a vocal minority into the 90s. Nowadays, it's pretty well understood that game rules are always subordinated to the consensus of people at the table.

    One of the peculiarities of computer games is that they give the illusion of a simulated totality, so the "simulationist" idea that the game mechanics cover everything has persisted longer. Of course they can't, and if you've got a multi-player game, there will have to be a layer of social rules beyond the game mechanics. Griefers disregard this. It helps if there are tools for admins to adjust things, but the community is paramount.
     
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  17. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,124
    This pretty much sums up things for me:
    Griefing is just one of many, many things that constitutes grounds for quitting, and it's a problem Keen can't solve. They added the safe zone, and that's about all they can do. In my opinion, the rest lies solely in the hands of the server administrator. Griefing is rampant in unattended servers, and it is manageable on servers that are. Still, people will quit the game griefed or not if they can't get their builds to hold together because they used rotors and pistons.

    I recently experienced having my 1,000,000+ kg wheeled cargo vehicle suddenly deciding that it wanted to fly, and without any input from me it proceeded to flip over, move sideways, stand on end, slide around on the ground, leap into the air and come crashing back to the surface. This wasn't on a server. No one did this to me. This was a single player session.

    I make a lot of big builds using all manner of rotors and pistons and other devices, both standard and modded. It's a real treat to know that any one of them might self-destruct without warning at any moment. Talk about griefing.

    Also, this demand that Keen "make Space Engineers a game" has a lot to do with people not playing (or buying). Keen provides plenty of good tools to let you make your own game, but many people not only don't want to "waste time" making a game, they also believe games made by other players are inferior by default, and only Keen can make a "good" game. On at least two occasions Marek and his staff have stated that SE was a sandbox game and both occasions were followed by a mass exodus of regular players.

    Then there are the technical issues that prevent things like liquid water and orbital mechanics.

    And, of course, Keen has insisted that there will be no vanilla lasers and shields. That pisses of at least three quarters of the remaining fanbase.
    (It's 2077 in the game. They ain't gonna happen by then.)

    SE's problem is that it is so close to that other game you like, and people have made mods to get the game even closer, so why won't Keen just make Space Engineers like that other game I like to play?
    What? You want your game to be unique? I QUIT!

    Yeah, griefing is a problem, but it doesn't explain why people that have never played MP quit, and I'd wager there's more of those than people that quit because they got griefed.
     
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  18. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,544
    Some people just aren’t happy unless they’re complaining. That’s just the way they are. But, they’re made happier if they can take out their unhappiness on other players who are happy...or at least, relatively happy. To those “unhappy-at-everything-that-isn’t-the-way-I-expect-it-to-be”, I quote Buzz Lightyear: “You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.”
     
  19. SirConnery Apprentice Engineer

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    214
    You do realize that if Space Engineers actually made this a better survival game it would be much more unique? We already have an infinite amount of building games on steam, but we don't have any survival-building of this type except Empyrion.

    So if you want uniqueness, then making survival better would be it.
     
  20. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,124
    Except a lot of people seem to think that "making survival better" means "make it like that other game that I like. The more you make it like that other game I like, the happier I will be."
    I"m not looking for uniqueness, whatever that is. I'm looking for Unique.

    There's a reason you had to name Emptyon as the only other game of this type. An eerily similar game that somehow managed to provide everything Keen said they wouldn't do, especially when it comes to providing a "survival game". I imagine that's the game everyone that quits SE goes to and it's totally outselling SE ten to one because of that. Right? Doesn't it also have lasers and shields? Keen should just copy what they did and problem solved.

    Unique is an absolute term. You can't be more or less unique. You either are or you are not.

    The best thing Keen can do to improve the "survival game" is kill the bugs and cage Clang, which I believe is their current objective.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  21. SirConnery Apprentice Engineer

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    214
    Well I haven't actually played Empyrion because

    1. It's ugly
    2. SE has much more interesting building blocks (like programmable block)
    3. From what I understand you can't even move inside a moving ship. Now that is very lame.

    But I would definitely welcome survival upgrades to this game. It's not like if you make the survival better in this game it becomes more like some other game. There would still be nothing like it on the market. I don't know why you think it's a unique feature to have only a sandbox with no gameplay. That's just lazy game design.
     
  22. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,824
    Semantics. I landed on the moon in a mostly vanilla game. I considered the moon my territory. My specific goals weren't to troll. But if I found someone setting up shop on the moon, I removed them. They built their bases out in the open and that was that. I was hidden in a deep crater. Eventually someone found my underground base and tore it to pieces. But I had made it off the moon before then so I had the bulk of my assets away from the moon. Though the feeling of having all of your stuff taken from you really sucks. It's very disappointing. But that's the game. You can get mad. You can want revenge. But it's still a game.

    But back to semantics. Griefers make destroying other peoples' stuff their primary or only activity. But everyone who has their stuff hacked claims to have been griefed.

    Build better, hide better, bury your base down over 800 meters (to stop turret pointing from giving you away) and make the entrance as hidden and small. Dig a lot of false entrances all over the map for at least 20km in all directions to throw off those that use deformation and "Streaming" to triangulate your assets.

    Build a backup base somewhere else.
     
  23. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    521
    I don't think there are really that many sandbox building games around; those that exist, aren't that much like SE.

    Space Engineers has the peculiar distinction of getting negative reviews from people who've played it for over a thousand hours. I have plenty of criticisms of Space Engineers, but, I've got almost 900 hours of play time out of it, and I'm still playing it.

    People who quit SE, fall into one of two groups: people who quickly realize it's not what they were expecting, and don't play it for long; and people who get into it, and play it for a long time, before quitting out of frustration or boredom. And when I say a long time, I mean a very long time, compared to how long people tend to play other games. I've seen it claimed that people typically complete a computer game in about 60 hours; in fact I've seen that number come up often enough that I think game publishers aim for that. Bethesda's open world CRPGs tend to take about 120. I finished Subnautica in 62 hours, for instance.

    You can design a game to be open-ended, or to come to a definite conclusion. In the latter case, people expect to stop playing when they get to the end -- even if they play through multiple times -- and they tend to assess the game by how satisfied they felt with the conclusion. But with an open-ended game, people will keep playing until they get frustrated or bored. So there is a problem that whenever the player does stop, it's because what used to be a positive experience, became a negative one, and that's often what they'll tell other people.
     
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  24. SirConnery Apprentice Engineer

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    214
    Stationeers, Factorio, Satisfactory. Just from the top of my head. Lots and lots of sandbox builder games if we can include other than 3D voxel games. Sure, almost nothing is exactly like SE, but that could be said for almost any great game. Doesn't make its flaws disappear.

    The thing is, the improvements that would really increase the game's potential are actually quite realistic to be made. I'm not asking for a full fledged survival upgrade, although one would be nice, but just provide us with a few things so we can make it happen on our own.

    1. Better NPC spawner
    2. That's really it

    We need an NPC spawner that's easily configurable and especially handles despawning much better. Despawning when gamespeed starts to sink due to too many NPC's, stopping grids far away that are visible to no-one etc.
     
  25. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    My son wants me to pop for Stationary. I'm still deciding.
     
  26. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    These are online multiplayer games? I don't know. Just asking

    A better NPC spawner would be nice. Most people don't stop there when they suggest "improvements" to the survival "game". I believe they essentially want a game that plays a lot like Doom. They want to defeat a Big Boss, and they want multiple avenues to achieve that goal. When they say they want a "game", they mean they want something they can "win". SE is not that kind of game, but many people believe it's not too late to influence Keen in order to make it so. Keen's resistance causes many people to quit.

    The video game demographic of choice is the infamous 18-35 year old male. I think you would find that the people that stick with SE tend to be at or above the high end of that. Older people that have more leisure time to invest in the game, and take a more pragmatic approach to its development. The 12-25 year old group has less patience, and they tend to quit with a great deal of drama.

    I think it is way too early in this game's development to worry about people quitting. I remember when Halo 2 came out everyone said the game was dead. Then Halo 3 came out and they said it was dead. Halo 4. Halo 5. What really happened is that a bunch of people quit each time and they were replaced by other people. When people quit a game they want the game to fail, and they embark on a campaign to paint the game as a failure. Problem is that the things that made the old players quit are not the things the new players care about. Many people will try SE and quit it because it is just not what they expect. It's not a game you fire up and win. It's complicated. There's no preferred strategies. There's no score. There's no rank. You just build stuff and play with it.

    Sure, I'd love it if everyone else loved my favorite game, but I know better than that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

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    173
    In regards to griefing. If left un checked by administrators it will kill servers.

    A good way to prevent this is a forced earth base start zone with minimal spawn equipment. Disabling respawn ships is a good way to prevent greifing. These trolls see bases as puzzles not as prizes. They also get off on others' agony which is weird.

    However, it's difficult for administrators to setup good spawn bases. It takes time. If it doesn't impress people leave. It needs a perfect balance of art, skill, and game knowledge to make a good spawn zone.

    I don't know if voxel free floating station can be pushed outside it's safe zone I have to check that.

    I'm also a bit annoyed that it's easier to hack through an armor wall than it is a door. I think that is a big contributor towards base griefing/trolling. This game really does favor destruction over building at the moment.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    914
    I'm happy to report that my zealotry about how the trolls are killing the community seems to have paid off.. well for me and those who play with me at least.

    Someone liked my spiel so much they made me admin of their server. A no trolling server. Lookit me- an active admin on a server, enabled with a shiny new banhammer and everything.

    Feels like home already.
     
  29. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,544
    I'm always the last guy chosen for dodge ball... :stare:
     
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,124
    Howdy, Sheriff!
     
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