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Turret Nerf, gattling gun buff, combat improvements

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by jmoose44, May 28, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    It may just be me but I think the Gatling and missile turrets on big ships are extremely op. every time I try to take down a spawning unmanned cargo ship with one of my small fighters, my ship blows up and there is no damage done to the other ships despite what feels like hours of firing. The turrets need to either track slower or stop leading the ship as a target, and the ship guns needs to be able to do more damage to the turrets on the big ships. The point of a battle between a small ship and a big ship is that the small ship tries to disarm the big ship from a safe distance while the big ship attempts to close the gap between the two ships to make their turrets more accurate. being shot down from pretty much any distance by a turret no matter how fast you're moving, or moving away from the ship is not a possible way to disarm the ship. Currently, the only effective way to disarm a cargo ship is to aproach it going >3Mph which is not a fun or effective game mechanic. Please make dogfighting fun, if turrets win every time than there is absolutely no point in having a small gunship.
     
  2. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    791
    Stop with the balance crap. The game is in alpha. This is not the time or place for your whining.
     
  3. Insaniac Trainee Engineer

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    Bit harsh Wombats, and jmoose44 I regularly attack and capture cargo ships with my fighter, all you need to do is understand the mechanics of the turrets and use them against themselves. For instance they are set to target objects moving faster than 3ms and they prioritize on the closest targets so an obvious way to prevent them from targeting you is to either remain still and shoot the turrets with a gatling gun until you can get to the ship avoiding a line of site with the remaining turrets and then disable the rest via any control panel. Another way to do it with a fighter is to install chaff pods and fly close to the ship at speed to get the turrets targeting the debris you leave behind your ship so you can get clear close range shots on the turrets or if your quick enough you could try locking yourself on with landing gear or getting to a visible control panel quickly. I myself use the chaff method and when the turrets are distracted I position myself where I can get a control panel as the cargo ship flies by, this didn't work on the minelayer so well as it had a tenancy to shoot the dozen warheads it has stored in it with missiles

    Don't just complain that something is "op", rather try and find a way around it using engineering.
     
  4. The Voivode Trainee Engineer

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    35
    It only takes 5 seconds of concentrated fire from a single gatling gun to disable a gatling turret. A single rocket also does the job well.
     
  5. Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

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    194
    Maybe try maneuvering a little instead of approaching the armed ship in a straight line? Every bellow average player would be able to shoot you down manually that way. I'm usually capable of taking down the armed AI ship with the basic fighter from "easy start".
     
  6. RayvenQ Moderator

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    Alos, if a gun targets you from one angle, try approaching from another so that the ships own shape occludes you from the turrets sight.
     
  7. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    Maybe learn to fly first before barking about balance on a game that is still in alpha.
     
  8. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    the turrets should not be able to accurately track and effectively lead a target going 104.8 m/s, that's insanely fast. Its also quite hard to hit a target while going that fast. I'm not suggesting that you make the turrets unusable by making them considerably weaker, I'm suggesting that you make it easier for the average pilot to disarm a fully turreted ship. not only that but from a distance, it ussually takes a whole 10-20 seconds for me to take out a turret (that's without moving and shooting at it like Insaniac suggested). I've tried all kinds of maneuvering and no matter what I only get a few seconds of dodging fire. This is what I'm suggesting, bring down the health of the average turret. Either make it less concentrated fire to take each one down, or make the turret fire slower when damaged. Two, Make the turrets rotate a bit slower just so when going at a fast speed (100-104 m/s) they lag behind a ship when tracking. Turrets remain more accurate the closer the ship is but absolute hit range is somewhere from 0-300 or 400 M. This would allow for strafing runs to be a critical part of small to large ship dog fighting. I believe it would better improve combat, and keep turrets as a defensive mechanic rather than an offensive one.
     
  9. Chojun Apprentice Engineer

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    111
    It's not unrealistic to expect that weapons 60 years into the future would be able to effectively lead their targets.

    Dogfighting in space using conventional engines is highly unrealistic, however.

    It would be nice if we could specify targets in the targeting computer - whether to target a ship's individual components (i.e. reactor(s), thruster(s)), the pilot/cockpit, or its weapons, etc.
     
  10. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    although it would help the combat mechanics signifiantly if small ships were more able to disarm a large ships turrets. Big ships are big targets that require defense capabilities, but small fighters are built for mostly offense. If a small ship can't disarm a large ship's defenses then there is really no point to fly a small fighter. I'm not saying that it should be easy to do this, but it should require time, patience and a fully stocked and loaded set of Gatling guns. to disarm a ship with 10 turrets it may take 10 or more strafing runs, each with the possibility of being hit, but getting hit less when flying at full speed. The best way as far as game mechanics go for making small fighters usable is to allow their Gatling turrets the ability to disarm big ships without having to cheat and just fire at them while not moving. If anyone can post a video of themselves effectively taking out a ship's turrets with only their Gatling guns (and only firing missiles 4 times as is the limit in survival) with the current turrets how they are, I'll focus on just becoming a better pilot or on making more maneuverable ships, but with how difficult it is currently to just not get shot by the turrets let alone take them out with a small ship's guns, I don't think anyone will actually be able to do it.
     
  11. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    Turrets do not lead ships, though. They fire where you are, not where you're going to be.

    The only way you could be hit by one is if you were flying straight at it, which I now have no doubt that you were.

    Learn to fly first before demanding things be changed to accomadate your lack of skill.
     
  12. Chojun Apprentice Engineer

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    111
    I agree that it's extraordinarily difficult. Like I said, it'd be nice if targeting computers existed that, with the aid of radar, would allow you to select components and show an aiming reticule that takes your velocity and vector and the target's velocity and vector and show you where to fire so that it would hit the target.

    The best example of this I've seen is either X-Wing Alliance or Starsiege:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79VWU-4DIqw

    (skip to about 2:15 to see what I'm talking about - notice the aiming reticule - a green circle - leads the target based on weapon velocity, target distance and velocity, and your velocity).
     
  13. Insaniac Trainee Engineer

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    97
    Turrets are only dangerous if you decide to fly straight at them, they do not lead the targets they are locked onto, if they hit you whilst you are strafing them then you are either moving too slowly as a result of your inability to design a sufficiently mobile ship or you are sat right in front of them in which case your plain stupid.

    In any of these cases it's your own fault that you are getting hit by the turrets because you lack the ingenuity to work out how to beat them.
     
  14. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    I think you misunderstand. Its true that when I fly directly at them I die instantly, which I believe is a good thing. But when I fly going full speed to the side of the ship so that I can try to pick off the turrets (which is incredibly difficult, especially for an amateur flyer like myself) I can only get in about 3-5 good fly byes before my ship is turned into swiss cheese. I feel it would be beneficial to the game if my shots that hit the turrets actually make a difference, that the light amount of fire that I get on them in my strafing runs (that aren't straight into the turrets) somewhat disable them so that I can make more than just 2 or 3 more runs before I get killed. Also the ammo that's spent to try and disable them is a lot wasted. At a distance of about 200 meters when not moving (not being shot at) it takes 10-20 seconds before the turret is destroyed, this amount of firing and time should be effectively lowered to give small ships a chance when it comes to disarming a big ship. The fly byes around the ship should do very little damage, and flying directly at them should heavily damage the small fighter, but maybe not completely destroy it. I just feel that the turrets work too well, seeing that they don't even need a pilot to be used effectively.
     
  15. Kharnage Trainee Engineer

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    50
    Why don't you build a ship to reflect your skill and combat methods? Build a ship with a large amount of forward facing heavy armour with greater propulsion when strafing than flying forward. Then just strafe fast around the ship while firing, weathering the turrets.
     
  16. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    I'll test this new method and get back to you, but I don't think its going to work.
     
  17. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    Small ships already have a chance to disarm large ships. It's called "use bombs -er- rockets wisely". A single rocket can destroy a gatling turret. Still doesn't do all that much to Heavy Armor, but that is what Heavy Armor is for.

    If you're trying to take down a heavily armed capital ship with only a few gatling guns, then maybe you should reconsider your strategy.
     
  18. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    same problem, if I fly too far I can't hit anything because I'm moving fast and far away, when I move even slightly towards the ship I get pulverized instantly. I know its supposed to be hard to do, but I've been practicing constantly with many different types of ships, the result is the same though, ships destroyed, no damage to the other ship. I mean, I would be okay if I got atleast one turret destroyed, but it just seems impossible to disable a single turret without the use of missiles (I do this because in survival I will only be limited to 4 and I know I can't take out all turrets with only 4 missiles).
     
  19. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    you can't take down them all with 4 missiles it is almost impossible, that's the point of the gatling guns on the small ships, its harder to use, more skill is required, but it saves resources. Right now in the game the gatling guns on the small ships are completely useless, I feel like that should be fixed, and giving them the purpose of disabling rather than destroying (what missiles are used for) would give them a purpose again. Rather than making them strong against armor, make them strong against ship components, most importantly thrusters and turrets. That would give the guns a purpose again and in my opinion would make in-game combat a lot more fun.
     
  20. perezmcg Apprentice Engineer

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    137
    I take down Cargo ships in my fighter all the time just practice more bro, or use a LARGE SHIP with turrets to fight LARGE SHIPS easy... just takes skill, and turn off your dampeners when aiming that will help to not throw you off course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrQAb03hEN8
     
  21. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    its not the practice, I practice pretty much everyday. its the fact that I want to train without using missiles because I know I'll have to save them for when I need to destroy something. I just feel like I'm firing marshmallows when I fire the Gatling guns on my ship. I put 6 of them on and I haven't been able to disable a single turret. I feel like missiles should be used to blow stuff up, and Gatling guns should be used to disable a ship's components leaving it dead in the water. Both take skill, but if you just blow everything up, how will you get anything from the ships you attack? It takes precision to use both weapons on a small ship while going at fast speeds, but one should be used for quick destruction, and the other for quick disabling, a turret with bullet holes in it shouldn't work properly, same with a thruster. I want people to start using the turret guns again because it adds another flavor to the gameplay. Right now they aren't effective at all, and I see that as a problem with the game.
     
  22. MegaGEC Apprentice Engineer

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    146
    i agree with jmoose. Gatling guns are almost useless. I can take down a ship with rockets but that would be just for fun because you destroy all valuables that you could get from it.
    And the other point of telling somebody that sucks designing or flying a ship because you can do the work, its a little bit rude. Think that no everyone has the same amount of time and patience to perfect themself in a game. For that reason almost every game offers the oportunity of select difficulty.
    Btw i almost got every cargo ship that spawns in the game staying still in front of it and disabling the turrets via a terminal access. And im not a pro for doing that and i can say that is the most boring thing to do.
     
  23. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    443
    buffs? omg, but im sure you meant some kind of electronic warfare/improvements :)
    for the character buffs or "skills profiles" there is time, in the future if they want to add things like this, food, atmophere etc, but not sure how a skills profile should be in this game without giving me the impression of being repulsive playing an RPG, since the EVE online skill system is even the worse system probably ... tic-tac timing, is better to have dedicated tools to make some improvement in game mechanics for specific blocks/actions that dont need to farm time or time+actions, like using some toll repeatly, just a matter to build its and use, keeping the original mean of this game about resources and engineering

    (sorry for my strange english, i hope someone can understan what i write lol)
     
  24. Virakotxa Apprentice Engineer

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    376
    A buff is to make something better... Doesn't need to be a timed buff as in "Whatever game you were thinking"-like. So yeah... electronic warfare/improvements.
     
  25. Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    Probably weapons and armours gets adjusting many many times in the future. I think this is too early to be too worried about them.
     
  26. Mac D Junior Engineer

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    I could see an electronic countermeasure block/pod as something to build on fighters eventually. Something which interferes with the AI turrets targeting making them miss you a bit more often.
     
  27. Vivicector Apprentice Engineer

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    171
    Why do you think, that a cheap small ship, that can be build in several minutes should be able to take down easily a big ship that took several days to build? It is possible, but it is hard, as that should be. Cause the real fighting conditions will be 10-20 fighters against one big ship.
    If you want to go solo, then learn to fly and shoot properly (how many shots do you miss?), or use missiles (you can get several rocket launchers and set then in chain fire to preserve ammo). Or use tricks. Ore launchers, detachable armour blocks with decoys in, anything you can think of.

    Show you small ship design. May be it is the problem.
     
  28. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    443
    awesome! i think you centered the point ... (were you?) i think here many players have a similar hope and concept about the game will be when in a pretty mature state, idk how and when and if but if this is the way then i think SE will be the best game about space will ever made, seriously
    (again sorry for my english, let me know if you cant understand what im trying to say)
     
  29. Leonhardt Senior Engineer

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    1,930
    What's odd is that I can disable the Heavy armored Hercules battlecruiser with a Roux fighter.

    Because I actually know how to fly.
     
  30. jmoose44 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    your right, it should be difficult for a small ship to take down a large ship, but it shouldn't be next to impossible when only using small ship Gatling guns. I have tried to disarm big ships this way countless times, and no matter how I maneuver or aim or anything the result is always the same. I would say that I am a amateur when it comes to advanced ship piloting, but that should mean that maybe 1/10 of the time I succeed by myself instead of failing every single time. This also brings into the question of what is the role of a large ship in a combat scenario? I believe that large ships are meant to carry smaller ships to deploy and to also act as a mobile base defended by its turrets, thus giving small ships the role of disarming the "base ship's" defenses while dogfighting with any other small ship trying to defend the base. Aiming for this goal for the role of Large ships would make turrets a defensive tool rather than an offensive one. It distracts the attacking ships enough to be easily taken out by a defending small ship, and also will damage them when they aren't careful but this means that the turrets can't destroy the small ships after only 3-4 runs (not straight into the turrets but to the side of the ship as a whole) and allow for more chances of disarming or being destroyed.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.