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Update 01.112 - Ore in rocks

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 10, 2015.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Soulthule Apprentice Engineer

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    362
    Let's get the game stable before we add more objects that break. I grow weary of multiple DS server restarts because of planet mining, killer stones, and clipping through the planet which are all still not corrected even though Drui claimed at least the falling through the world bug was.

    Just once I would like one of the devs to pop in one of our survival worlds. It may give a better perspective on the issues. Yes that's it! Weekly surprise visits on random players dedicated survival servers!
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. SultonMRP Trainee Engineer

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    Soooo..... what did the patch that just happened fixed?
     
  3. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    Less crashes for me, but still slowmotion.
     
  4. Neeneko Trainee Engineer

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    That would not surprise me. Companies that interact closely with their player base often end up hiring dedicated people to manage that part of the process since it can really burn out developers quickly. At one company I worked we were outright forbidden (or, at minimal, HIGHLY discouraged) from reading our customer forums since it tended to really break moral. We had an entire layer of people who sat between devs and users, one of whom would always be present if doing a call, and who kept a close eye on forums for us.

    But alpha depends so much on having that loop open. I suspect they have people who quietly watch things, I do see offical people posting in the bug forum at least, but I agree they would likely benefit from getting the loop unclogged, and good patch notes would likely help there. Probably more so than the time spent producing community spotlight videos since youtubers fill that role already.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  5. DiggaTron Trainee Engineer

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    44
    RE: all my posts in this thread.

    See, people think its a bug.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Two Apprentice Engineer

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    300
    It is not a bug, it is a crude fix for the physics issues we had in multiplayer. Basically if the sim speed of the server went down, even just tapping your movement keys could get you instantly killed. It is no longer going to happen if your game locally runs on slowmo as well, as then server and client are constantly in sync. But then you have to play at 5 fps.
     
  7. DiggaTron Trainee Engineer

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    44
    Yes more or less what I said, well less actually.

    Edit: and its hardly crude, of course the server and client need to be in sync for multiplayer to work.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. legenkiller16 Trainee Engineer

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    27
    Well I cant play this game anymore since it crashes everytime i load the save
     
  9. DiggaTron Trainee Engineer

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    if you haven't already, make a bug report and post the log of the crash, maybe even send them the save.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  10. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    14
    Ok but I don't see any reason why the server would be that slow while CPU isn't burning.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    14
    If I start a new world on server, game is at normal speed.

    With old worl, I have 37kB loading data during game loading.
    With a new world on same settings, I have 842kB loading data.

    I hope I won't have to start a new game :(
     
  12. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    Because the dedicated server process is limited to a single core. On a 4 core system it will report ~25% usage.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. DePoX Trainee Engineer

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    1
    So.... this update broke the game for me...

    Now when i try to grind anything, the grinder selection is cancelled. Then when i select the grinder again, it pops out and grinds without clicking..

    Won't play again until lots of fixes are released - really disappointed :/
     
  14. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    14
    For fourth time, I have NO ANY CORE at 100%
     
  15. Neeneko Trainee Engineer

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    CPU usage is a good starting point to look at, but it is not a very complete indicator of what the process is actually doing. For instance, it might be burning its time in I/O (including swap space), it could be drowning in context switches from interrupts going off, it could be stuck in some IPC mechanism like a mutex or other lock.

    For instance, years ago I worked on a project that was multithreaded with a network management thread. At one point in the development cycle it went through a huge performance drop even though the disk was quiet, the CPU usage was low, and there was plenty of memory. Turns out its aggressive polling of a shared network structure was causing LOTS of wait time on some simple status bits. Another, less easily fixed example from my current project involves a simulation which, as long as I am running one fewer instance than the number of cores, it uses up ~90% of the CPU time for each core. If I run any more then that though, CPU utilization drops to about 10% and it takes hours to complete. The sims have no IPC, running in completely separate memory spaces, and there is plenty of raw memory, but something down in the OS has trouble scheduling them.

    So if you are seeing low CPU usage AND poor performance, they are probably hitting some kind of scheduler related issue, probably waiting some system call. They are probably aware of this already and profiling it, but these kinds of issues can be really insidious to run to ground.
     
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    Sorry, Updates Per Second, not Uninterrupted Power Supply. :)

    That's what SE calls it in the debug overlay. FPS is how many frames your GPU is getting drawn, and UPS is how many frames Havok is getting processed.

    The thing I'm thinking is that if the clients are doing some processing themsleves, and they were definitely doing it two patches ago, the server might be slowing up because it's waiting for a value from the client, but the netcode is slowing that down so the server is slowing to wait for it, which means the clients have to slow because they're synched to the server...

    Does the world file on the DS lag at all if it's loaded as a single player world? How about loaded as hosted multiplayer? I'm curious if the issue is in the DS or if it's with some object or objects in the world file since new worlds are not lagging.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  17. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not saying this is your issue but I have had that before and it is usually resolved with relogging or quitting game and restarting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677
    A bloated world file effects everything just the same in singleplayer. I can tell you this after many transfers of my DS worlds to local testing over the last 2 years. There is lots of bad shit that gets caught in the world that hurts performance, most of which is nearly impossible to find. Cleanup routines only help so much, sometimes the only way to fix it is to make a fresh world.

    I really hope that with this new netcode, Keen offloads dedicated server world data to MySQL databases instead of file. It would be so much more efficient for performance and management...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. meric Trainee Engineer

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    13
    Prison Architect was made available to the public at September 25, 2012 and has been released at October 6, 2015 which is a total of 3 years and 2 weeks. KSP was made public at June 24, 2011 and has been released at April 27, 2015. That's 3 years and 10 months. And I don't complain about SE having bugs in alpha I just wished they would be farther down the developing road as they currently are, because, when compared to other games (let's face it, you have to put up with comparison to other products as a developer) they're somewhat behind. That's all I'm saying.
    And even if we're optimistic here, I don't think KEEN will meet up with neither Prison Architect nor KSP at their current rate of development pace when it comes to releasing SE.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    14
    I'll try it tonight.

    I understand your explain about UPS or other performance issues sources, but I don't think we meet the case.

    Strangely, no slowmotion with a new world. Maybe an objet in our world causes the slowing down with this server version... I tried a rollback some days before (old save) and updating server to last version, still slowmotion.
     
  21. Ulfsark Master Engineer

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    3,057
    get rid of all your pre-update made tools and make new ones. And try reading on the forums a bit ....
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  22. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Actually, from reading the Change Log as well as other forums here, and watching streams on Twitch, I have a pretty good idea how un-enjoyable running a space engineers server can be. I also believe I know the reason: The Game is NOT READY for Multiplayer. Especially if there are more than four players in the game. The current MP code is a hack job. Keen so much as said so. It was implemented by Keen as a quick fix because early on people wanted multiplayer. It soon became clear that Steam's MP wasn't going to cut it. They're working on something else. In the meantime you have something that shouldn't be working at all, and you are ignoring the fact that the game is in alpha and updated (and therefore guaranteed to break) every week. But no, you fire up a server and invite everyone on Earth to join. You're not "trying to hold together some semblance of an online community" so much as you are showcasing the fact that the multiplayer is not ready.

    I have a server under construction to be used specifically for hosting SE. It will not be public until the netcode is stable.

    Trust me, if every server shut down today, when the game releases a good 20% of the people buying the game will run it on a server and the online community will thrive. A lot of people seem to want to establish a popular online presence before the game releases. Waste of effort. It won't matter. People won't be looking for the oldest SE servers. They'll be looking for the best one's. There are now 112 change log threads. At least 100 of them have a post from a server admin upset because the update screwed up their server and made their game unplayable, and Keen is screwing up their ambitions to be a major online presence. You guys should be expecting this. After all this time Keen only just now said they are going to concentrate on MP. That does not mean it will all be fixed next update. Or next week. Or next year. Or at all, for that matter.

    If nothing else, SE will always be a pretty darn good single player game. Multiplayer is icing on the cake. They need to finish the cake. Then the icing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  23. Neeneko Trainee Engineer

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    63
    I wonder if they would have taken more or less of a PR hit if they disabled multiplayer support when they released planets. Sometimes major features screw with each other, and if you want people testing one you have to disable the other, and perhaps this is what they (in hindsight) should have done?
     
  24. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    144
    LoL... that would have caused more havoc especially since it is social in MP but I hear ya!
    Personally, I would have shut my server permanently and stated supporting another product. Single player is boring to me. That's just me. Personally, I just play, roll with it as best I can, generate bug reports (though very few) and generate crash dumps. More I play and give the info the more likely they will be able to resolve. I even try to continue to play even at high levels of instability... for that very same reason. Yes, there are times when I need to take time aw and their efforts to reduce that impact. One can only fall through a planet so many times before it gets old, etc. Personally, I am surprised it (planets release) was not MORE impactful. Keen did what they could, to some degree, to limit that. I personally am pretty damn happy with planets,,, and I really never wanted them. I felt it would make it less... Hmm,, spacey.. LOL (like say, I love them now) Many did want them and so Keen took a hugely MAJOR detour to accommodate. I cannot imagine the man hours they have had to spend to accomodate this in their road map.. and now we complain about timelines too.. LOL Very nice of them IMO. It was a huge enterprise and bound to cause some reverberations upon its release.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. PhoenixTheSage Junior Engineer

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    677
    Woah dude, chill out. I'm not ignoring anything, and I've defended this game in it's alpha state multiple times. You completely missed the point of my initial post.
    I'm upset that Keen is not communicating its changes, even less so than before, as if it's not important to us admins.

    ...and you are telling me things I already know and getting super defensive. You are ALSO trying to tell me what I think, as if your opinion is fact. You can read and watch all you want, but until you DO...you know nothing Jon Snow...

    YOU may not think that is why I and others (we have a steam group and there is a large group of admins that communicate with each other) do it, and that's sad.
    But that is your opinion only, as deeply false as it is...

    I can sum your entire strawman post right here: "No, you're wrong. Because (no) reasons, let me quote some things that are commonly known"

    Side note: Keen made multiplayer available to paid hosting. Official hosting. Doing so has consequences for a community if the game is in alpha. At that point, multiplayer becomes muddied with business. Now I don't use hosters but plenty of people do, and plenty of people expect it to work since they are paying for it to work. This, I don't really care about, but it is important to point out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Neeneko Trainee Engineer

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    63
    Yeah, I could see how this would cause the multiplayer focused contingent to lose momentum and wander off. I guess the ideal solution would be something like having two branches being tested side by side, and then have a period of merging sometime down the line. Though that can turn into its own development hell.

    It makes me happy to have never worked on a protracted alpha,. managing the politics of which groups to keep engaged must be a nightmare. Small wads of cash and a 401k is a much more consistent tool for keeping testers ^_^
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I'm one of "those people" that reiterate making a proper bug report, but I will agree that the process is intimidating. The Pastbin method does not work for everyone. I had better luck making the spaceengineers.log file into a Google doc and posting a link. I think it's fair to say the bug reporting process could use an improvement.
     
  28. GrinderFurax Trainee Engineer

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    14
    When I import the save to test in solo mode, the game is a bit less slow, but with lag sometimes.
    With ressources monitor I can see I'm burning one core, and I see some swap writing while I'm in average of 95% RAM used. But this is not the case with my dedicated server :(
    I don't have perf issues if I create a new map with same settings, in solo or dedicated server.

    I have the feeling that map from previous versions aren't fully compatibles with new game version :(
     
  29. Neeneko Trainee Engineer

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    Hrm. Have you checked with SEToolbox to see if there might be some strange clutter in the existing world? if not simple amount, maybe some object locked in a strange state or programmable block going crazy?? For instance, a while back I had a half welded ship that would cause my sim to crash. Removing that one grid brought things back to normal.
     
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Just because you say I'm wrong, doesn't mean that I am. Server admin disappointment is well documented in these forums. Reasons for disappointment revolve around updates. Updates never help multiplayer or dedicated servers. Admins should expect that. Many do. The one's that post their frustration here don't. Who's making a strawman argument now?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.